Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Rob

Thanks, good read.

It was.

[The Puzzler]

Seems a very expensive “heist”, over 300 dead on one side….however, that’s what the Trojan War was in mythology, wasn’t it? the heist of Helen…things that make me go hmmm

Edited April 24, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

On 4/22/2023 at 1:56 AM, Mario Dantas said:

Thanks, i appreciate your interest.

Phoenician toponyms could have been derived from Finland/Sweden region, in this case.

Just to give an example regarding some Phoenician city states with similar names as in Tyre/Tyresö or Simyra/Simris i found yesterday:

 

"The Power of Place Names: Landscape, Identity and Memory in the Modern Middle East" edited by Reeva Simon and Eleanor Tejirian. This book examines the role of toponyms in shaping cultural identity and memory in the modern Middle East. (https://www.routledge.com/The-Power-of-Place-Names-Landscape-Identity-and-Memory-in-the-Modern/Simon-Tejirian/p/book/9781138185546)

 

I try to interpret the characters of the Trojan War into Basque…Achilles,(ak, Ram, hil, dead, les, the etc)  “the rams death”…death of the Ram, Achilles….or Zeus…IE blather, dyeus…it’s ZU…Basque Sky…the sky God…..

Finnish has similar very simple equations. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Tyr is an ancient word. 

”wider Germanic mythology, he is known in Old English as Tīw and in Old High German as Ziu”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr

Ziu.

In Australia Tyr is still shown respect, as Tuesday, that is Court Day, if you have to go to Court, Tyr will avenge you on Tuesday x

Tiryns…we lucky to be able to get an IE meaning from Tyr or Tir….Pelasgian maybe, non IE…tor, we might get somewhere 

Edited April 24, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:33 AM, Abramelin said:

I thought this little titbit about the identity of one of the tribes of the Sea Peoples was rather interesting:

Merneptah states that he defeated the invasion, killing 6,000 soldiers and taking 9,000 prisoners. To be sure of the numbers, among other things, he took the penises of all uncircumcised enemy dead and the hands of all the circumcised, from which history learns that the Ekwesh were circumcised, a fact causing some to doubt they were Greek.[80]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

Edited to add:

Why would the Greeks be circumsized?

The habit started in the deserts as a hygienic practise. And then it became a religious thing.

Another edit:

I just read Puzz already posted that in post #203.

Final edit:

But if these Ekwesh were indeed Achaeans, then the influence of the Phoenicians/Semites on these bearers of early European civilization was a tad more than most presentday Greeks and Hellenists will be able to stomach, lol!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer)

Yes, I don’t buy the Ekwesh were Achaeans at all. 

[The Puzzler]

On 4/23/2023 at 7:18 PM, Abramelin said:

Next: where do these warriors show up in the records about the Sea Peoples?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollensevalleybattlefield

Quotes:

Various artifacts found in the box suggested that its owner was from South-Central Europe and had traveled hundreds of miles to the battlefield.[21]

(...)

The battle seems to coincide with a period of heightened militancy 3,250 years ago, as metal became increasingly scarce north of the Alps and populations seem to have moved.[7]

(...)

According to the researchers at the site, this would have been an astounding feat for the time, probably enabled by a central government. This would mean that socio-political development in Central Europe was more advanced and more bellicose than previously assumed,[7] roughly at a time when Egypt and the Hittites concluded their famous peace treaty. The well-preserved bones and artifacts add detail to this picture of Bronze Age sophistication, pointing to the existence of a trained warrior class and suggesting that people from across Europe joined the bloody fray.

According to archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen, the battle would have taken place during an era of significant upheaval from the Mediterranean to the Baltic. At around this time, the Mycenean civilization of ancient Greece collapsed, while the Sea Peoples who had devastated the Hittites were defeated in ancient Egypt. Not long after the battle at Tollense valley, the individual scattered farmsteads of northern Europe were replaced by concentrated and heavily fortified settlements.[2]

Yes, this whole period of instability is most likely driven by similar reasons, affecting everyone. Interesting connections.

[The Puzzler]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

Really a massively, powerful cultural horizon. 
Seems to me  at Tollense to do with the taking over or protection of the trade route economy, which as I read the above, was pretty powerful in the Nordic area.

Tin, Amber, bronze, powerful everything. Someone imo was threatening that.

Just like they account for the attack on Troy as a way to takeover the trade route to the Black Sea. 
 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

On 4/23/2023 at 2:18 AM, Abramelin said:

Next: where do these warriors show up in the records about the Sea Peoples?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollensevalleybattlefield

Quotes:

Various artifacts found in the box suggested that its owner was from South-Central Europe and had traveled hundreds of miles to the battlefield.[21]

(...)

The battle seems to coincide with a period of heightened militancy 3,250 years ago, as metal became increasingly scarce north of the Alps and populations seem to have moved.[7]

(...)

According to the researchers at the site, this would have been an astounding feat for the time, probably enabled by a central government. This would mean that socio-political development in Central Europe was more advanced and more bellicose than previously assumed,[7] roughly at a time when Egypt and the Hittites concluded their famous peace treaty. The well-preserved bones and artifacts add detail to this picture of Bronze Age sophistication, pointing to the existence of a trained warrior class and suggesting that people from across Europe joined the bloody fray.

According to archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen, the battle would have taken place during an era of significant upheaval from the Mediterranean to the Baltic. At around this time, the Mycenean civilization of ancient Greece collapsed, while the Sea Peoples who had devastated the Hittites were defeated in ancient Egypt. Not long after the battle at Tollense valley, the individual scattered farmsteads of northern Europe were replaced by concentrated and heavily fortified settlements.[2]

Abe,

Andres Paabo has witten two essays that seem relevant, for connecting the far-north region and the era of Egypt's Sea Peoples.  Paabo says the Odyssey stories were composed by a Greek who had merely heard stories about the far-north. 

http://www.paabo.ca/23index-research.html  see item 4 in Paabo's list, for the two essays about Troy and the Odyssey. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by atalante

[Abramelin]

4 hours ago, atalante said:

Abe,

Andres Paabo has witten two essays that seem relevant, for connecting the far-north region and the era of Egypt's Sea Peoples.  Paabo says the Odyssey stories were composed by a Greek who had merely heard stories about the far-north. 

http://www.paabo.ca/23index-research.html  see item 4 in Paabo's list, for the two essays about Troy and the Odyssey. 

Oh, I know about Paabo's site.

He was in parts suggesting something I suggested in the Doggerland thread.

These peoples along the edge of the northern ice shield, from the present UK, across Doggerland, to northern Siberia had been in contact by means of the ice lakes bordering the northern ice shield.

[Mario Dantas]

On 4/23/2023 at 2:24 PM, Abramelin said:

I'll bet that the AI produced answers you didn't like.

If it confirmed your theory about Greenland, then by that it also confirmed what I posted about this AI before, heh.

Sure, that is the best thing that happened to my theory, but sorry for the intrusion. Sometimes i can't control myself...

What do you think of the Finns in the story? You did not talk about it...

Quote

Are you aware that recently Greenland had elephants or mastodon like animals? What do you think was the central region like? are you aware of Bamber's bedrock images?

 

 

 

Yes, I am aware that during the last Ice Age, Greenland was home to a variety of large mammals such as mammoths, woolly rhinoceroses, and mastodons. These animals were able to survive on the island due to the presence of grasslands and other vegetation, which were sustained by the milder climate of the time.

It is not clear what the central region of Greenland was like during the Ice Age, as the island's climate and environment have changed dramatically over time. However, it is likely that the central region was characterized by a mix of grasslands, wetlands, and forests, which would have provided a diverse range of habitats for the island's inhabitants.

I am also aware of the Bamber's Bedrock images, which are a set of high-resolution digital elevation models (DEMs) of the Greenland Ice Sheet that were created using data from a variety of sources, including satellite imagery and laser altimetry. These images provide detailed information about the ice sheet's surface topography and help scientists to understand the processes that control ice flow and mass balance.

It's important to note that while the evidence of the existence of these animals in Greenland is a scientific fact, the interpretation of the central region and the possible existence of a civilization like Atlantis is not supported by scientific evidence.

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Mario Dantas
changed my mind

[Mario Dantas]

9 hours ago, atalante said:

Abe,

Andres Paabo has witten two essays that seem relevant, for connecting the far-north region and the era of Egypt's Sea Peoples.  Paabo says the Odyssey stories were composed by a Greek who had merely heard stories about the far-north. 

http://www.paabo.ca/23index-research.html  see item 4 in Paabo's list, for the two essays about Troy and the Odyssey. 

Atalante,

Felice Vinci wrote a book entitled: Homer in the Baltic. When i read it i managed to identify nearly all the places down in Finland, on Google Earth:

This guy proposes a Baltic origin for Greek myth, or something similar and explored the country's toponymy and compared it with Greek names. There are fact several examples in Finland, as shown above.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Mario Dantas
source

[Piney]

On 4/23/2023 at 11:15 AM, Abramelin said:

You would probably love it if you knew where this Tollense Valley is located.

But that "ancient battle" may have been nothing but a heist:

https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/tollense-battle.html?m=1

I thought it was for control of the Amber Road, but a heist by a tribe is possible.

[The Puzzler]

13 hours ago, Mario Dantas said:

Atalante,

Felice Vinci wrote a book entitled: Homer in the Baltic. When i read it i managed to identify nearly all the places down in Finland, on Google Earth:

This guy proposes a Baltic origin for Greek myth, or something similar and explored the country's toponymy and compared it with Greek names. There are fact several examples in Finland, as shown above.

I tend to agree though I’d even consider the Tollense battle as a Trojan War….400 odd years later, written down as a mythological story as best they knew, within a Greek world context.

Even Finnish, who did keep oral stories of great mythologies. Maybe Finns were involved.

We are simply relying on a Homeric tale (including Gods taking sides….not to mention Apollo, a Hyoerborean as the God of Troy)… to take this whole war literally.

As people picked apart my Atlantis theories, I began to pick apart other stories that seem just as unrealistic.

There is no real evidence at Hisarlik to say, hey the Trojan War definitely took place here. It is inconclusive.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

12 hours ago, Piney said:

I thought it was for control of the Amber Road, but a heist by a tribe is possible.

It doesn’t click as a caravan heist to me. 4000 men are estimated to have been involved. Seems a bit excessive.

Control of the trade route seems logical.

Edited April 26, 2023 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

14 hours ago, Mario Dantas said:

Atalante,

Felice Vinci wrote a book entitled: Homer in the Baltic. When i read it i managed to identify nearly all the places down in Finland, on Google Earth:

This guy [Vinci] proposes a Baltic origin for Greek myth, or something similar and explored the country's toponymy and compared it with Greek names. There are fact several examples in Finland, as shown above.

Mario,

Footnote 5 in Paabo's essay about the Odyssey says Vinci is too extreme about a physical migration from the Baltic region to Greece - when a simpler and more logical explanation can connect the two regions, by having some parts of the Odyssey storyline (but not the bulk population of a national people) be carried by travelling minstrels.  

quote from: http://www.paabo.ca/papers/NorthernOdyssey.pdf

or from:  https://www.academia.edu/9815005/The_Odyssey_s_Northern_Origins_and_a_Different_Author_Than_Homer

5 This concept of some of the geography described in the Odyssey really being in the north, but assigned names in the Aegean, has been pursued by an author, Felice Vinci, in his book THE BALTIC ORIGINS OF HOMER'S EPIC TALES:THE ILIAD, THE ODYSSEY, AND THE MIGRATION OF MYTH .While some of his early arguments are very believable, he, in my opinion then gets carried away as he goes, when he proposes a very extreme point of view that the geographical names of the Baltic Sea was transferred to the Aegean as a result of an early migration of Greeks from the Baltic to the Aegean. I was disappointed by this extreme interpretation when the easiest interpretation is the one offered here, that a Greek minstrel visited a northern Greek family, returned to Greece, and he himself introduced Greek parallels to tell the northern tales. .

Edited April 26, 2023 by atalante

[Abramelin]

On 4/19/2023 at 11:36 PM, Mario Dantas said:

However, it is important to note that the presence of a single haplogroup in one individual does not necessarily provide definitive evidence of population migration or intermixing. Further research and genetic analysis would be needed to better understand the origins and distribution of this haplogroup in different populations.

@Mario Dantas

This is the important part of your post.

[The Puzzler]

Haplogroups do not denote a culture….apparently. This is an exchange of culture and possibly people, from a great battle in the Bronze Nordic Age in Northern Germanic Baltic lands…on a great takeover, or defence of a major area of trade, of tin from Cornwell, with a possible outpost in Wessex…of bronze found in trade type, of swords from Mycenae, and pearls, and Amber exported to Egypt, it’s a big deal, this find changes everything we knew about that time and the northern cultural horizon. 
Maybe they are the Trojan settlers, remnants of this battle. Coming in from the Black Sea, where from the Northern river, Odin was said to lived.  That’s why everything Trojan seems Northern European. It’s a good one.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Did the Roman line really come from Troy through Aeneus into Latium with Lavinia to Rhea Silvea..?.Did they really come from Troy, what about Etruscans? From Lycia? How about Brutus? Why are English considered Trojan..?

Theres more to this than meets the eye.

Several accounts contradict each other…how far do we go with mythology introducing these people to a country?

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

2 hours ago, atalante said:

Mario,

Footnote 5 in Paabo's essay about the Odyssey says Vinci is too extreme about a physical migration from the Baltic region to Greece - when a simpler and more logical explanation can connect the two regions, by having some parts of the Odyssey storyline (but not the bulk population of a national people) be carried by travelling minstrels.  

quote from: http://www.paabo.ca/papers/NorthernOdyssey.pdf

or from:  https://www.academia.edu/9815005/The_Odyssey_s_Northern_Origins_and_a_Different_Author_Than_Homer

5 This concept of some of the geography described in the Odyssey really being in the north, but assigned names in the Aegean, has been pursued by an author, Felice Vinci, in his book THE BALTIC ORIGINS OF HOMER'S EPIC TALES:THE ILIAD, THE ODYSSEY, AND THE MIGRATION OF MYTH .While some of his early arguments are very believable, he, in my opinion then gets carried away as he goes, when he proposes a very extreme point of view that the geographical names of the Baltic Sea was transferred to the Aegean as a result of an early migration of Greeks from the Baltic to the Aegean. I was disappointed by this extreme interpretation when the easiest interpretation is the one offered here, that a Greek minstrel visited a northern Greek family, returned to Greece, and he himself introduced Greek parallels to tell the northern tales. .

A Greek minstrel…?

Maybe, but Mycenaeans are a cultural term of recent…to throw them all in one basket when there is many splinters to them.

The “Mycenaean” or people who entered Greece as Hellenes, the return of the Dorians, c. 1200BC may have been part of the hoardes of this battle, and migrated south into Greece at a similar time.

The grave cists of Mycenae show different builds in the skeletons, heavier or slighter…not the same through “Mycenaean” times. Different cultures inhabited Mycenae. A Finnish word. City of death, a mausoleum, as it is.

Im not sure if I can connect to the Sea People but interesting in itself. 

[The Puzzler]

“DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern‐day Poland and Scandinavia. “This is not a bunch of local idiots,” says University of Mainz geneticist Joachim Burger. “It’s a highly diverse population.”
As University of Aarhus’s Vandkilde puts it: “It’s an army like the one described in Homeric epics, made up of smaller war bands that gathered to sack Troy”—an event thought to have happened fewer than 100 years later, in 1184 B.C.E. That suggests an unexpectedly widespread social organization, Jantzen says. “To organize a battle like this over tremendous distances and gather all these people in one place was a tremendous accomplishment,” he says.”

https://www.unl.edu/rhames/War/Slaughter at the bridge_ Uncovering a colossal Bronze Age battle _ Science _ AAAS.pdf

Twas no caravan heist.

Edited April 26, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This event, may have stopped tin coming in to Southern Europe…essentially cutting off the Bronze Age…we know tin and bronze got scarce north of the Alps…this in itself may have driven the Iron Age, the time after the collapse of the Bronze Age…in turn, this would have spurred migration…as the last Bronze Age outposts tried to hold on, they became redundant with the introduction of iron and their significant trade culture and knowledge of who they were also died out. 

[Abramelin]

I think the mayhem in Europe was caused by an impact of a comet in the Northern Atlantic/North Sea.

It caused huge floods in the Atlantic coasts of Europe.

The mayhem started in Northern Europe.

People went on the move, and had to fight their way through the territories of neighbouring tribes.

People were desparate.

[The Puzzler]

9 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I think the mayhem in Europe was caused by an impact of a comet in the Northern Atlantic/North Sea.

It caused huge floods in the Atlantic coasts of Europe.

The mayhem started in Northern Europe.

People went on the move, and had to fight their way through the territories of neighbouring tribes.

People were desparate.

A comet impact is prob the last thing I thought you would say…lol

What comet, where?

I know the Kaali impact is a viable one. It’s hard to date but could be considered a reasonable timeframe.

 

[atalante]

11 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

A Greek minstrel…?

Maybe, but Mycenaeans are a cultural term of recent…to throw them all in one basket when there is many splinters to them.

The “Mycenaean” or people who entered Greece as Hellenes, the return of the Dorians, c. 1200BC may have been part of the hoardes of this battle, and migrated south into Greece at a similar time.

 

Puzzler,   

Stories about the long lost Mycenaean empire were recalled in oral episodes -- which were recited, in contests, by Greek rhapsodes (similar to minstrels) who competed with each other to see who could tell one episode better than other rhapsodes.  After several centuries of orally polishing the episodes by rhapsodes, the "best" (or most entertaining) versions of various episodes were strung together into a witten form.   

The oral "episodes" were the "splinters"....

Edited April 27, 2023 by atalante

[Abramelin]

17 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

A comet impact is prob the last thing I thought you would say…lol

What comet, where?

I know the Kaali impact is a viable one. It’s hard to date but could be considered a reasonable timeframe.

 

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/249093-what-happened-around-1200-bce/