Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Just so I won't get lost here...

Are the two of you suggesting the Phoenicians were the same as, or descended from the Saami/Finns?

As far as research about Phoenicians goes, I haven't read about them being closely related to the Finns.

Well, go back far enough - to for instance the ice age refugia - and there may be a relation.

 

@cormac mac airt

What do you think?

I’m not suggesting that.

I am suggesting though, the Sea People attacks may be in relation to a people who had witnessed an impact of what you’re suggesting in the North of Europe. And I’m also suggesting that the same people knew the area of Greece from prior times and the language before IE there had been Finno Ugric. 

[Abramelin]

On 4/28/2023 at 2:26 PM, The Puzzler said:

Anyway…

”The analyses of the rock arts of these prehistoric sites are coherent for a cosmic phenomenon, a Tunguska like (1908) event for the Panela crater formation, the Tupana event, around the year 1200 B.C.”

http://www.scribd.com/doc/42492391/THE-PREHISTORIC-REPRESENTATIONS-OF-THE-TUPANA-EVENT-IN-NORTHEASTERN-BRAZIL-PIERSON-BARRETTO-Arcaeoastronomy-Expert

This could be connected to the Kaali impact imo, maybe a deluge of rocks hit different areas of Earth at that time, I don’t see why not.

Great, the document has been deleted.

I'm glad I saved most of it in this old thread:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/249093-what-happened-around-1200-bce/

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

The words of the language are everywhere in Pelasgian. Pre Hellenic, pre Doric. An Athenian and possibly Trojan/Cycladic language.

[The Puzzler]

Cormac is not touching it and I don’t blame him. 
The arrival of Apollo into Greek myth speaks for itself. Hel-ios. A hot round stone, the Sun.

The word is Finnic, just like every other Pelasgian word. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

What language was used before the arrival of IE into Europe?

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

What language was used before the arrival of IE into Europe?

There are several ideas about that language

One is that it was Vasconic, of which Basque is the only survivor.

The other is that in northern Europe that could have been Maglemosian, which is probably related to Finno-Ugric (or Finno-Uralic, whatever).

Edited April 29, 2023 by Abramelin

[Mario Dantas]

Sorry for the length of these last posts...

but regarding their skills as master builders of ships, the Kalevala is the best example. It mustn't be by lucky chance that the Scandinavian are actually very good at building yachts, naval vessels, icebreakers, ferries and submarines:

Quote

Spake the good, old Wainamoinen:
“Therefore is this warlike vessel
Built of trusty steel and copper,
Trimmed and bound in toughest iron,
That the winds may not destroy it,
May not harm my ship of magic.”

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5186/5186-h/5186-h.htm#chap41

 

Quote

Now he decks his magic vessel,
Paints the boat in blue and scarlet,
Trims in gold the ship’s forecastle,
Decks the prow in molten silver;
Sings his magic ship down gliding,
On the cylinders of fir-tree;
Now erects the masts of pine-wood,
On each mast the sails of linen,
Sails of blue, and white, and scarlet,
Woven into finest fabric.

Wainamoinen, the magician,
Steps aboard his wondrous vessel,
Steers the bark across the waters,
On the blue back of the broad-sea,
Speaks these words in sailing northward,
Sailing to the dark Pohyola:
“Come aboard my ship, O Ukko,
Come with me, thou God of mercy,
To protect thine ancient hero,
To support thy trusting servant,
On the breasts of raging billows,
On the far out-stretching waters.

“Rock, O winds, this wondrous vessel,
Causing not a single ripple;
Rolling waves, bear ye me northward,
That the oar may not be needed
In my journey to Pohyola,
O’er this mighty waste of waters.”

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5186/5186-h/5186-h.htm#chap41

 

Quote

But the Maid or Beauty answered,

Answered thus the great magician:
“I will go with that one only
That will make me ship or shallop,
From the splinters of my spindle,
From the fragments of my distaff,
In the waters launch the vessel,
Set the little ship a-floating,
Using not the knee to push it,
Using not the arm to move it,
Using not the hand to touch it,
Using not the foot to turn it,
Using nothing to propel it.”

Spake the skilful Wainamoinen,
These the words the hero uttered:
“There is no one in the Northland,
No one under vault of heaven,
Who like me can build a vessel,
From the fragments of the distaff,
From the splinters of the spindle.”

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5186/5186-h/5186-h.htm#chap41

 

Quote

Wainamoinen, sailing northward,
Steers his wondrous ship of magic
Toward the headland jutting seaward,
Toward the island forest-covered.

Now Annikki, goodly maiden,
Sees it is the magic vessel
Of a wonderful enchanter,
Of a mighty bard and hero,
And she asks this simple question:
“Art thou then my father’s vessel,
Or my brother’s ship of magic?
Haste away then to thy harbor,
To thy refuge in Wainola.
Hast thou come a goodly distance?
Sail then farther on thy journey,
Point thy prow to other waters.”

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5186/5186-h/5186-h.htm#chap41

 

Quote

Tell the truth now Wainamoinen,
Whither is thy vessel sailing?”
Spake the hero of the Northland:
“To the wars my ship is sailing,
To the bloody fields of battle,
Where the streams run scarlet-colored,
Where the paths are paved with bodies.”
These the words of fair Annikki:
“Know I well the paths to battle;
Formerly my aged father
Often sounded war’s alarum,
Often led the hosts to conquest;
In each ship a hundred rowers,
And in arms a thousand heroes,
On the prow a thousand cross-bows,
Swords, and spears, and battle-axes;
Know I well the ship of battle.
Speak no longer fruitless falsehoods,
Whither sailest, Wainamoinen,
Whither steerest, friend of waters?”

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5186/5186-h/5186-h.htm#chap41

Quote

Then he saw the dawn of evil,
Saw misfortune hanging over,
Saw destruction round about him.
Straightway he began rebuilding
Him a magic sailing-vessel,
New and wondrous, full of beauty;
But the hero needed timber,
Boards, and planks, and beams, and braces,
Found the smallest bit of lumber,
Found of boards but seven fragments,
Of a spool he found three pieces,
Found six pieces of the distaff;
With these fragments builds his vessel,
Builds a ship of magic virtue,
Builds the bark with secret knowledge,
Through the will of the magician;
Strikes one blow, and builds the first part,
Strikes a second, builds the centre,
Strikes a third with wondrous power,
And the vessel is completed.

Thereupon the ship he launches,
Sings the vessel to the ocean,
And these words the hero utters:
“Like a bubble swim these waters,
Like a flower ride the billows;
Loan me of thy magic feathers,
Three, O eagle, four, O raven,
For protection to my vessel,
Lest it flounder in the ocean!”

Now the sailor, Lemminkainen,
Seats himself upon the bottom
Of the vessel he has builded,
Hastens on his journey homeward,
Head depressed and evil-humored,
Cap awry upon his forehead,
Mind dejected, heavy-hearted,
That he could not dwell forever
In the castles of the daughters
Of the nameless Isle of Refuge.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5186/5186-h/5186-h.htm#chap41

Quote

Wainamoinen, old and faithful,
Thus addressed the ship at anchor:
“Weep no more, thou goodly vessel,
Man-of-war, no longer murmur;
Thou shalt sail to Sariola,
Sing the war-songs of the Northland,
Sail with us to deadly combat.
Wert thou built by the Creator,
Thou canst sail the roughest waters,
Sidewise journey o’er the ocean;
Dost not need the hand to touch thee,
Dost not need the foot to turn thee,
Needing nothing to propel thee.”
Thus the weeping boat made answer:
“Cannot sail without assistance,
Neither can my brother-vessels
Sail unaided o’er the waters,
Sail across the waves undriven.”
Spake the ancient Wainamoinen:
“Should I lead thee to the broad-sea,
Wilt thou journey north unaided,
Sail without the help of rowers,
Sail without the aid of south-winds,
Sail without the helm to guide thee?”
Thus the wailing ship replying:
“Cannot sail without assistance,
Neither can my brother-vessels
Sail without the aid of rowers,
Sail without the help of south-winds,
Nor without the helm to guide them.”
These the words of Wainamoinen:
“Wilt thou run with aid of oarsmen
When the south-winds give assistance,
Guided by a skillful pilot?”
This the answer of the war-ship:
“Quickly can I course these waters,
When my oars are manned by rowers,
When my sails are filled with south-winds,
All my goodly brother-vessels
Sail the ocean with assistance,
When the master holds the rudder.”

Then the ancient Wainamoinen
Left the racer on the sea-side,
Tied him to the sacred birch-tree,
Hung the harness on a willow,
Rolled the vessel to the waters,
Sang the ship upon the broad-sea,
Asked the boat this simple question:
“O thou vessel, well-appearing
From the mighty oak constructed,
Art thou strong to carry treasures
As in view thou art commanding?”
Thus the goodly ship made answer:
“Strong am I to carry treasures,
In my hull a golden cargo;
I can bear a hundred oarsmen,
And of warriors a thousand.”

Wainamoinen, the magician,
Then began his wondrous singing.
On one side the magic vessel,
Sang he youth with golden virtues,
Bearded youth with strength of heroes,
Sang them into mail of copper.
On the other side the vessel,
Sang he silver-tinselled maidens,
Girded them with belts of copper,
Golden rings upon their fingers.
Sings again the great magician,
Fills the magic ship with heroes,
Ancient heroes, brave and mighty;
Sings them into narrow limits,
Since the young men came before them.

At the helm himself he seated,
Near the last beam of the vessel,
Steered his goodly boat in joyance,
Thus addressed the willing war-ship:
“Glide upon the trackless waters,
Sail away, my ship of magic,
Sail across the waves before thee,
Speed thou like a dancing bubble,
Like a flower upon the billows!”

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5186/5186-h/5186-h.htm#chap41

[The Puzzler]

14 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

There are several ideas about that language

One is that it was Vasconic, of which Basque is the only survivor.

The other is that in northern Europe that could have been Maglemosian, which is probably related to Finno-Ugric (or Finno-Uralic, whatever).

Vasconic, yes and Finnic, yes. Good answer.

 

[Abramelin]

10 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Vasconic, yes and Finnic, yes. Good answer.

 

No, not Finnic.

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

No, not Finnic.

OK. Finno-Uralic.

[Abramelin]

Just now, The Puzzler said:

OK. Finno-Uralic.

Even PROTO Finno-Uralic.

[The Puzzler]

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Even PROTO Finno-Uralic.

Yes. I’d agree with that.

[The Puzzler]

Once we get a fuller picture of the power in Europe before Greece overtook our mindset, the more we will understand  about the cultures who created it imo. I know stuff all tbh but can see things that indicate a more powerful people indeed, that did not live in the Aegean world.

That is why I find the Tollense Battle so interesting, it’s like whoa, hold up a minute.

Edited April 29, 2023 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Just so I won't get lost here...

Are the two of you suggesting the Phoenicians were the same as, or descended from the Saami/Finns?

As far as research about Phoenicians goes, I haven't read about them being closely related to the Finns.

Well, go back far enough - to for instance the ice age refugia - and there may be a relation.

 

@cormac mac airt

What do you think?

No, the Phoenicians ARE NOT the same as nor descended from the Sami/Finns. Archaeologically and genetically, as part of the Canaanites, they are known to be a composite of local inhabitants mixed with migrants from before circa 3000 BC in Northern Syria who themselves descend from peoples from the Bronze Age Caucasus  and Chalcolithic Iran. 
 

cormac

[The Puzzler]

22 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

No, the Phoenicians ARE NOT the same as nor descended from the Sami/Finns. Archaeologically and genetically, as part of the Canaanites, they are known to be a composite of local inhabitants mixed with migrants from before circa 3000 BC in Northern Syria who themselves descend from peoples from the Bronze Age Caucasus  and Chalcolithic Iran. 
 

cormac

This is why we cannot say Finns were Phoenicians. Big surprise. Language however is different from genetics, as you are well aware. Language moves with power.

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, The Puzzler said:

This is why we cannot say Finns were Phoenicians. Big surprise. Language however is different from genetics, as you are well aware. Language moves with power.

And yet the Canaanite, and therefore Phoenician, language/s show no evidence whatsoever of being related to Sami/ Finnic. Doesn’t help you a bit. 
 

cormac

[The Puzzler]

14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

And yet the Canaanite, and therefore Phoenician, language/s show no evidence whatsoever of being related to Sami/ Finnic. Doesn’t help you a bit. 
 

cormac

No it doesn’t, but I’m not saying Phoenicians were  Finns. I’m saying the language used in the Aegean and Europe but not in Canaan, which was always Semitic, was a type of Basque or even proto-Finnic. Even Abe agrees with that. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

It's also listed under the "Tupana Event".

http://tsun.sscc.ru/nh/txtxt.php?tfile=Panela_Brazil.rtf

That's the same link Essan posted.

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Aren't we talking about exactly thàt period, 1200 BCE?

The Archaic ended between 1000 to 500 depending on the location but the Paleo is like around 6000 BCE and before.

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

No it doesn’t, but I’m not saying Phoenicians were  Finns. I’m saying the language used in the Aegean and Europe but not in Canaan, which was always Semitic, was a type of Basque or even proto-Finnic. Even Abe agrees with that. 

Carry on, I’m not interested in Lego-linguistics. Abramelin asked me a question and I answered it. 
 

cormac

[The Puzzler]

This is somewhat out there, however…

”The origin of the ethnic groups of Ireland, Scotland and Northern Europe, requires a look back in history to the events that took place in the lands on the southern shores of the Mediterranean Sea.  This was a region, which supported a large population of diverse ethnic groups from long before the time of the Christian Era.  Among them were the Sea Peoples that are believed to have settled there in prehistoric times. According to some authors, they were Norsemen who arrived initially in the 12^th Century bce. from lands bordering the Baltic and North Seas (see Sea Peoples and Fig. 193).

 

          Edo Nyland [email] (personal communication) has suggested that Ramesses III, who reigned from 1188 to 1165 bce, called the Sea Peoples living in the area at that time Shardana. Their exploits are elaborately carved on his funerary temple at Medinet Habu, perfectly preserved.  They along with the Berbers were master astronomers and spoke an early form of Basque-Saharan.  

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/shardana.htm#:~:text=Among them were the Sea,193).

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Carry on, I’m not interested in Lego-linguistics. Abramelin asked me a question and I answered it. 
 

cormac

I told you not to bother.

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, The Puzzler said:

I told you not to bother.

It’s not your call. 
 

cormac

[The Puzzler]

7 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

It’s not your call. 
 

cormac

It was just advice.

[The Puzzler]

“his has been confirmed by Apollonius of Rhodes.  In fact, the mummy of Ramesses II was very blond, as well as some of the other pharaohs and high officials. The Shardana, derived from the word Sharma Dana signifies “good looking - all: "All good looking".  They lived along the Mediterranean coast of Egypt and Libya and had a formidable fleet trading with the Black Sea Peoples.  They populated the Dniepr valley from where they became the Poles, Baltic peoples, Friesians and Vikings, all the same genetic background.  They also settled northeastern Turkey as the Kaska (meaning head), where they still live today as the Kirrukaska (meaning blond heads) or Circaskians. ”

The languages will assert this is true. lego or otherwise.

Edited April 29, 2023 by The Puzzler