Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[docyabut2]

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Why do you think that?

Because it was a war in 1200 bc 

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, The Puzzler said:

I said U’K not U or K.

Quote

I’m talking mtDNA K didn’t

Do you want to try again? 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, docyabut2 said:

Because it was a war in 1200 bc 

Not what I read in your link.

[docyabut2]

9 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Not what I read in your link.

A fresco from the palace of Pylos, dated around 1300-1200 BC. Depicted... | Download Scientific

The enemies of the Mykenaians, on the other hand, were the Minoans, the Hittites, the Egyptians,

Edited April 29, 2023 by docyabut2

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

A fresco from the palace of Pylos, dated around 1300-1200 BC. Depicted... | Download Scientific

 

Yes, there was a war. But that was around 425 BCE.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

6 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Do you want to try again? 
 

cormac

No, it’s 5.56am, my brain is fried but you know I’ll be back 

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

A fresco from the palace of Pylos, dated around 1300-1200 BC. Depicted... | Download Scientific

 

Ah, this:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-fresco-from-the-palace-of-Pylos-dated-around-1300-1200-BC-Depicted-is-a-fight-between_fig3_332549968

Ok, good one.

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

No, it’s 5.56am, my brain is fried but you know I’ll be back 

From the following: 

Quote

The addition of our Jordan 767 sequence to the tree (Fig. (Fig.1)1) gives a branching point for U8b,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1523212/

As stated above that branching point WAS JORDAN. Needless to say Jordan is in the Middle East. 

cormac

[docyabut2]

11 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Ah, this:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-fresco-from-the-palace-of-Pylos-dated-around-1300-1200-BC-Depicted-is-a-fight-between_fig3_332549968

Ok, good one.

 

Thats  a picture of the med sea

[docyabut2]

7 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Thats  a picture of the med sea

 do add -The enemies of the Mykenaians, on the other hand, were the Minoans, the Hittites, the Egyptians,

Edited April 29, 2023 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

I`m guessing why they  were the  Phoenicians: that  they came from there.:)  

Edited April 29, 2023 by docyabut2

[The Puzzler]

10 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Nice swerve but nope: 

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_K_mtDNA.shtml

cormac

I’ll tell you what…we both win. It’s not as conclusive as we are led to believe. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/

Edited April 30, 2023 by The Puzzler
Added link

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Thats  a picture of the med sea

Your link directed me to this paper:

The European Beta-tradition: on the origin of the Iliad

Ward Blondé

https://www.academia.edu/38880811/The_European_Beta_tradition_on_the_origin_of_the_Iliad

Chapter 9

The Sea Peoples and a Central European ideology

The purpose of this chapter is to provide an explanation of how the Beta-tradition might have ended up in Greece. This will be done through a separated historical theory about prehistoric Europe and the Dark Ages in Greece.Both the presented argumentation for the existence and origin of the Beta-tradition and the argument for the historical theory are supposed to be sufficiently strong in and of themselves. So even if we did not find any connections between Greece and non-Greek Europe, we still have to assume the non-Greek origin of the Beta-tradition based on the arguments that have already been presented. Nevertheless, it will be demonstrated that such links were indeed there.In finding the Beta-tradition in Greece, it should be noted first that other northern, non-Greek elements began to emerge in Greece around the fall of the Mykenaian Empire. These elements are shown in the following three facts: bronze weapons from the Danube region (the so-called bronzes from the north), the adaptation of Mykenaian weapons to northern weapons, and Mykenaian imitations of northern pottery. Anyone who wants to offer an explanation for this, however, must also answer a series of important and much-discussed issues that are closely linked: the fall of the Mykenaian Empire, the fall of the Hittite Empire (including a successful attack on Troy), the Dark Ages in Greece, the attacks of the peoples appointed by the Egyptians as Sea Peoples, the relocations of the Sea Peoples, and the relocation of the Dorians within Greece. In this chapter, therefore, an overarching theory will be presented that offers an answer to all these issues.

===

I haven't downloaded the paper yet, but it looks very interesting.

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Thats  a picture of the med sea

This is what's below the picture:

A fresco from the palace of Pylos, dated around 1300-1200 BC. Depicted is a fight between barbarians in animal skins and palace guards, who are recognizable by their helmets made with swine teeth.

[Abramelin]

Just received a email:

 

Who Were the Philistines, and Where Did They Come From?

Michele Barasso

Investigating the biblical and archaeological evidence for the Philistines’ origins

Megan Sauter April 16, 2023

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/who-were-philistines-where-did-they-come-from/?mqsc=E4151767&dk=ZE3140ZF0&utmsource=WhatCountsEmail&utmmedium=BHDA Week in Review&utmcampaign=42923WIR_Lavish New Kingdom Tomb

(...)

Excavations have shown that the Philistines had a distinct assemblage of artifacts. Master notes parallels between some early Philistine objects, especially from the 12th and 11th centuries B.C.E., and Aegean and Cypriot artifacts. Elements of Philistine material culture, then, also hint at an Aegean or Mediterranean origin for the Philistines.

New evidence from Ashkelon further supports this connection. The Leon Levy Expedition excavated at Ashkelon from 1985–2016 under the direction of the late Lawrence Stager at Harvard University; for the last decade, Daniel Master co-directed excavations. They found some infant burials from the 12th century B.C.E., as well as a Philistine cemetery with burials from the 11th through eighth centuries B.C.E. Teaming up with scientists at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, they were able to analyze DNA from seven of these individuals. When they looked at the 12th-century infants’ DNA, they discovered that the infants had some European ancestry. Crete proved to be one of the best matches for the infants’ heritage—when considering all of their genetic material. Yet other places in the western Mediterranean, such as Iberia, also provided a good match.

Interestingly, in the later individuals from Ashkelon’s cemetery, this European ancestry had been so diluted to barely register. Master explains that, by the tenth century B.C.E., enough intermarriage had taken place between the Philistines and the local Levantine population that the Philistines looked a lot like their neighbors:

While there was some evidence of the same Western European Hunter-Gatherer genetic input, for all statistical purposes, it could not be identified for certain. The best models showed that these people [the tenth- and ninth-century individuals buried in Ashkelon’s cemetery] were descendants of both the 12th-century inhabitants and the earlier Bronze Age inhabitants. It appears from these results that so much intermarriage had taken place between the original immigrants and the people around them that the genetic makeup of Ashkelon’s inhabitants had lost its immigrant distinctiveness.

Yet Master clarifies that, at this point in history, the Philistines still thought of themselves as distinct, as evident in a seventh-century inscription from the Philistine city of Ekron. The inscription names Ekron’s king as Ikausu, which means “Achaean” or “Greek.” The name Ikausu (or Achish) also appears in 1 Samuel 21:10 as Gath’s king.

Master concludes that the new DNA evidence, coupled with the biblical and archaeological testimonies, suggests that the Philistines originated in Crete. That is not to say that the Philistines were a homogenous group, all coming from the Aegean world, but it seems that many Philistines did indeed migrate from there, bringing with them vestiges of Minoan culture. Learn more about this ancient people in Daniel M. Master’s article “Piece by Piece: Exploring the Origins of the Philistines,” published in the Spring 2022 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review.

[Abramelin]

17 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Just received a email:

 

Who Were the Philistines, and Where Did They Come From?

Michele Barasso

Investigating the biblical and archaeological evidence for the Philistines’ origins

Megan Sauter April 16, 2023

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/who-were-philistines-where-did-they-come-from/?mqsc=E4151767&dk=ZE3140ZF0&utmsource=WhatCountsEmail&utmmedium=BHDA Week in Review&utmcampaign=42923WIR_Lavish New Kingdom Tomb

(...)

Excavations have shown that the Philistines had a distinct assemblage of artifacts. Master notes parallels between some early Philistine objects, especially from the 12th and 11th centuries B.C.E., and Aegean and Cypriot artifacts. Elements of Philistine material culture, then, also hint at an Aegean or Mediterranean origin for the Philistines.

New evidence from Ashkelon further supports this connection. The Leon Levy Expedition excavated at Ashkelon from 1985–2016 under the direction of the late Lawrence Stager at Harvard University; for the last decade, Daniel Master co-directed excavations. They found some infant burials from the 12th century B.C.E., as well as a Philistine cemetery with burials from the 11th through eighth centuries B.C.E. Teaming up with scientists at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, they were able to analyze DNA from seven of these individuals. When they looked at the 12th-century infants’ DNA, they discovered that the infants had some European ancestry. Crete proved to be one of the best matches for the infants’ heritage—when considering all of their genetic material. Yet other places in the western Mediterranean, such as Iberia, also provided a good match.

Interestingly, in the later individuals from Ashkelon’s cemetery, this European ancestry had been so diluted to barely register. Master explains that, by the tenth century B.C.E., enough intermarriage had taken place between the Philistines and the local Levantine population that the Philistines looked a lot like their neighbors:

While there was some evidence of the same Western European Hunter-Gatherer genetic input, for all statistical purposes, it could not be identified for certain. The best models showed that these people [the tenth- and ninth-century individuals buried in Ashkelon’s cemetery] were descendants of both the 12th-century inhabitants and the earlier Bronze Age inhabitants. It appears from these results that so much intermarriage had taken place between the original immigrants and the people around them that the genetic makeup of Ashkelon’s inhabitants had lost its immigrant distinctiveness.

Yet Master clarifies that, at this point in history, the Philistines still thought of themselves as distinct, as evident in a seventh-century inscription from the Philistine city of Ekron. The inscription names Ekron’s king as Ikausu, which means “Achaean” or “Greek.” The name Ikausu (or Achish) also appears in 1 Samuel 21:10 as Gath’s king.

Master concludes that the new DNA evidence, coupled with the biblical and archaeological testimonies, suggests that the Philistines originated in Crete. That is not to say that the Philistines were a homogenous group, all coming from the Aegean world, but it seems that many Philistines did indeed migrate from there, bringing with them vestiges of Minoan culture. Learn more about this ancient people in Daniel M. Master’s article “Piece by Piece: Exploring the Origins of the Philistines,” published in the Spring 2022 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review.

Btw., the article also mentions that the Philistines ate pork.

The Phoenicians, according to the next link, didn't:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_restrictions_on_the_consumption_of_pork

So, what wonders me, again, is why Ba'al Hammon, the main god in Carthage, is depicted with the same headgear as the Philistines on the Medinet Habu murals:

Post #176

Edited April 30, 2023 by Abramelin

[atalante]

6 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Your link directed me to this paper:

The European Beta-tradition: on the origin of the Iliad  https://www.academia.edu/38880811/The_European_Beta_tradition_on_the_origin_of_the_Iliad

Ward Blondé

 

Chapter 9

The Sea Peoples and a Central European ideology

The purpose of this chapter is to provide an explanation of how the Beta-tradition might have ended up in Greece. This will be done through a separated historical theory about prehistoric Europe and the Dark Ages in Greece.Both the presented argumentation for the existence and origin of the Beta-tradition and the argument for the historical theory are supposed to be sufficiently strong in and of themselves. So even if we did not find any connections between Greece and non-Greek Europe, we still have to assume the non-Greek origin of the Beta-tradition based on the arguments that have already been presented. Nevertheless, it will be demonstrated that such links were indeed there.In finding the Beta-tradition in Greece, it should be noted first that other northern, non-Greek elements began to emerge in Greece around the fall of the Mykenaian Empire. These elements are shown in the following three facts: bronze weapons from the Danube region (the so-called bronzes from the north), the adaptation of Mykenaian weapons to northern weapons, and Mykenaian imitations of northern pottery. Anyone who wants to offer an explanation for this, however, must also answer a series of important and much-discussed issues that are closely linked: the fall of the Mykenaian Empire, the fall of the Hittite Empire (including a successful attack on Troy), the Dark Ages in Greece, the attacks of the peoples appointed by the Egyptians as Sea Peoples, the relocations of the Sea Peoples, and the relocation of the Dorians within Greece. In this chapter, therefore, an overarching theory will be presented that offers an answer to all these issues.

===

I haven't downloaded the paper yet, but it looks very interesting.

On page 8 of this paper, a speculative timeline is presented for the major oral traditions that were merged into the Illiad.  

Ward Blonde has also published a book about the alpha-tradition, which came from Mycenaean viewpoints.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-alpha-tradition-ward-blond/1128949859

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by atalante

[cormac mac airt]

3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Who Were the Philistines, and Where Did They Come From?

Michele Barasso

Investigating the biblical and archaeological evidence for the Philistines’ origins

Megan Sauter April 16, 2023

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/who-were-philistines-where-did-they-come-from/?mqsc=E4151767&dk=ZE3140ZF0&utmsource=WhatCountsEmail&utmmedium=BHDA Week in Review&utmcampaign=42923WIR_Lavish New Kingdom Tomb

(...)

Excavations have shown that the Philistines had a distinct assemblage of artifacts. Master notes parallels between some early Philistine objects, especially from the 12th and 11th centuries B.C.E., and Aegean and Cypriot artifacts. Elements of Philistine material culture, then, also hint at an Aegean or Mediterranean origin for the Philistines.

New evidence from Ashkelon further supports this connection. The Leon Levy Expedition excavated at Ashkelon from 1985–2016 under the direction of the late Lawrence Stager at Harvard University; for the last decade, Daniel Master co-directed excavations. They found some infant burials from the 12th century B.C.E., as well as a Philistine cemetery with burials from the 11th through eighth centuries B.C.E. Teaming up with scientists at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, they were able to analyze DNA from seven of these individuals. When they looked at the 12th-century infants’ DNA, they discovered that the infants had some European ancestry. Crete proved to be one of the best matches for the infants’ heritage—when considering all of their genetic material. Yet other places in the western Mediterranean, such as Iberia, also provided a good match.

Interestingly, in the later individuals from Ashkelon’s cemetery, this European ancestry had been so diluted to barely register. Master explains that, by the tenth century B.C.E., enough intermarriage had taken place between the Philistines and the local Levantine population that the Philistines looked a lot like their neighbors:

While there was some evidence of the same Western European Hunter-Gatherer genetic input, for all statistical purposes, it could not be identified for certain. The best models showed that these people [the tenth- and ninth-century individuals buried in Ashkelon’s cemetery] were descendants of both the 12th-century inhabitants and the earlier Bronze Age inhabitants. It appears from these results that so much intermarriage had taken place between the original immigrants and the people around them that the genetic makeup of Ashkelon’s inhabitants had lost its immigrant distinctiveness.

Yet Master clarifies that, at this point in history, the Philistines still thought of themselves as distinct, as evident in a seventh-century inscription from the Philistine city of Ekron. The inscription names Ekron’s king as Ikausu, which means “Achaean” or “Greek.” The name Ikausu (or Achish) also appears in 1 Samuel 21:10 as Gath’s king.

Master concludes that the new DNA evidence, coupled with the biblical and archaeological testimonies, suggests that the Philistines originated in Crete. That is not to say that the Philistines were a homogenous group, all coming from the Aegean world, but it seems that many Philistines did indeed migrate from there, bringing with them vestiges of Minoan culture. Learn more about this ancient people in Daniel M. Master’s article “Piece by Piece: Exploring the Origins of the Philistines,” published in the Spring 2022 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review.

I told you. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I told you. 
 

cormac

I know you did.

Interesting thing: these Philistines most probably came from Crete. And probably also from Iberia.

[cormac mac airt]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I know you did.

Interesting thing: these Philistines most probably came from Crete. And probably also from Iberia.

More probable is that it’s a migratory outlier much like finding Phoenicians in Iberia due to migration. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

So, what wonders me, again, is why Ba'al Hammon, the main god in Carthage, is depicted with the same headgear as the Philistines on the Medinet Habu murals:

Post #176

The only headdress that comes close is a symbol of some warrior (?) on the Phaistos Disc from Crete:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaistos_Disc#/media/File%3ADiskos.von.Phaistos_Detail.3_11-Aug-2004_asb_PICT3374.JPG

Edited April 30, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

More probable is that it’s a migratory outlier much like finding Phoenicians in Iberia due to migration. 
 

cormac

I remembered a moment ago about a recent discovery made in Iberia:

https://arkeonews.net/archaeologists-have-uncovered-the-first-human-representations-of-the-people-of-mythical-tartessos/

Interesting hair style.

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

The only headdress that comes close is a symbol of some warrior (?) on the Phaistos Disc from Crete:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaistos_Disc#/media/File%3ADiskos.von.Phaistos_Detail.3_11-Aug-2004_asb_PICT3374.JPG

That’s a good find.

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

That’s a good find.

The only other people I can think of who had this hairdress are the American Pawnee, and the Medieval Frisian crusaders.

Edited to add:

And a couple of South American tribes.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

The similar skirts intrigue me, they seem therefore a similar people, some of the skirts have tassels, some don’t but they are all wearing them in the sea battle images…..regardless of the helmets.

Edited April 30, 2023 by The Puzzler