Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

25 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The only other people I can think of who had this hairdress are the American Pawnee, and the Medieval Frisian crusaders.

Edited to add:

And a couple of South American tribes.

I think you’re onto something….the image on the Phaistos Disk def resembles the sea people helmet, at least of one tribe. I’ll spend more time on this tomorrow.

[Swede]

54 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The only other people I can think of who had this hairdress are the American Pawnee, and the Medieval Frisian crusaders.

Edited to add:

And a couple of South American tribes.

What you are referring to is called a "roach" and is not uncommon ceremonial dress amongst a number of mid-continental North American tribes.

.

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, Swede said:

What you are referring to is called a "roach" and is not uncommon ceremonial dress amongst a number of mid-continental North American tribes.

.

If we continue like this, we'll end up with acknowledging that Native American tribes were part of the Sea Peoples.

[cormac mac airt]

14 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I’ll tell you what…we both win. It’s not as conclusive as we are led to believe. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/

No, we don't both win. The statement above is, due to context and the purpose of the paper, a generalization at best not meaning to be anything remotely definitive. 

These are far more to the point: 

https://www.mdpi.com/2673-8856/2/2/8       (2022)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-11629-8     (2017)

cormac

[Piney]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

If we continue like this, we'll end up with acknowledging that Native American tribes were part of the Sea Peoples.

Well, we did teach the AE how to build pyramids, the Han how to harvest rice and the Solutrean how to knap properly.......

.....don't hit me..

[The Puzzler]

I feel like I’m wrestling a Nile crocodile in this thread….

Edited May 1, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

16 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

No, we don't both win. The statement above is, due to context and the purpose of the paper, a generalization at best not meaning to be anything remotely definitive. 

These are far more to the point: 

https://www.mdpi.com/2673-8856/2/2/8       (2022)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-11629-8     (2017)

cormac

I’m not going to debate this point anymore. I put forth mine, if you want to scorn it with excuses, that’s fine.

Edited May 1, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This symbol appears Libyan to me.

So the head dress would also be Libyan.

Just like the Sea People were joined with.

I don’t doubt Libyans were trading/interacting with the Cyclades before the fall of it all.

The disk is most likely a record of trade.

From Libya we received fish, warriors, shields, eggs, in different batches, for a record of possible payment of the items.

 

[cormac mac airt]

40 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I’m not going to debate this point anymore. I put forth mine, if you want to scorn it with excuses, that’s fine.

No excuses, you’ve been shown to be wrong. Full stop, as you like to say. 
 

cormac

[The Puzzler]

17 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

No excuses, you’ve been shown to be wrong. Full stop, as you like to say. 
 

cormac

Hardly,  but .

Edited May 1, 2023 by The Puzzler

[docyabut2]

On 4/30/2023 at 10:01 AM, Abramelin said:

I remembered a moment ago about a recent discovery made in Iberia:

https://arkeonews.net/archaeologists-have-uncovered-the-first-human-representations-of-the-people-of-mythical-tartessos/

Interesting hair style.

tartessos was the story of  Atlantis:):) 

Edited May 1, 2023 by docyabut2

[Mario Dantas]

I asked Chatgpt regarding the word phono and Greek mythology:

Quote

Can you refer to the aspects of phono in Greek mythology?

ChatGPT

In Greek mythology, the concept of "phono" (sound or voice) is present in several stories and figures. Here are a few examples:

1. Orpheus: Orpheus was a legendary musician and poet in Greek mythology, known for his beautiful singing voice. He was said to have been able to charm animals and even inanimate objects with his music. In one story, he used his singing to charm the god of the underworld, Hades, and convince him to let his wife, Eurydice, return to the world of the living.

2. The Sirens: The Sirens were creatures from Greek mythology who lured sailors to their death with their beautiful singing voices. According to legend, their voices were so mesmerizing that sailors would be unable to resist the temptation to sail closer to them, even if it meant crashing their ships on the rocks.

3. Echo: Echo was a nymph in Greek mythology who was cursed by the goddess Hera to only be able to repeat the last words spoken to her. In some versions of the myth, Echo falls in love with the god Narcissus, but is unable to tell him her feelings due to the curse. Instead, she repeats his words back to him until he realizes what is happening.

4. Apollo: Apollo was the god of music, poetry, and prophecy in Greek mythology. He was said to have been the inventor of the lyre, a musical instrument that he played to entertain the other gods on Mount Olympus. He was also known for his beautiful singing voice, and was often depicted with a golden lyre in his hand.

These are just a few examples of the ways in which the concept of "phono" is present in Greek mythology.

I was blown away when i asked him the same regarding the Phoenicians:

Quote

Yes, the concept of "phono" (sound or voice) was also important to the Phoenicians, who were known for their expertise in crafts and technology related to sound and voice. For example, they were credited with inventing the first phonetic writing system, which used symbols to represent individual sounds in a language, rather than whole words or ideas. This system eventually evolved into the alphabet that is used today in many languages, including English.

The Phoenicians were also skilled musicians and created many musical instruments, such as the lyre and the kithara, which were used in their religious ceremonies and festivals. Additionally, they were known for their impressive seafaring abilities, and their navigational skills relied heavily on their ability to interpret and respond to sounds, such as the sounds of waves, winds, and animals.

I am not going into details but if what it says is true, there is an obvious connection, imo.

Symbols to represent individual sounds in a language...

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Mario Dantas said:

I asked Chatgpt regarding the word phono and Greek mythology:

I was blown away when i asked him the same regarding the Phoenicians:

I am not going into details but if what it says is true, there is an obvious connection, imo.

Symbols to represent individual sounds in a language...

Chatgpt IS NOT a “him”, it’s an artificial intelligence program that may be useful for menial tasks/general information but not much else. 
 

cormac

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

Chatgpt IS NOT a “him”, it’s an artificial intelligence program that may be useful for menial tasks/general information but not much else. 
 

cormac

I understand that' it' has recently watched the Terminator series of films.....

[The Puzzler]

To me, the lost obvious thing here, is the same outfit…

Different helmets, but seems regimental to me…. but most, regardless of helmet, still have the same tasselled skirt on, some without the tassel.

They were allies of Libya. Some lived in their boats and were from isles in the Sea. The isles of Majorca off Spain, the Western Mediterranean habiting pirate types…in conjunction with earlier Libyan outposts, travelling to Crete and Thera in the older days. 

The earthquake that struck Totana in 1550BC, a supplier of barley to the Eastern Mediterranean it seems, could have a created, later, a probable invasive people bringing carts and women. Part of the larger Argar culture, with apparent Mycenaean ties. This seems a logical scenario imo. Maybe even settling in Libya at the time contributing European genes to the Berbers….but continuing on as their own group culture, as people do, we don’t know who any of them were, but Egyptians did and they were Libyan allies.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272375832_Archaeoseismological_Analysis_of_a_Late_Bronze_Age_Site_on_the_Alhama_de_Murcia_Fault_SE_Spain

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The earthquake was situated around Lorca, circled, not all that far from Libya across the sea, would easy have lobbed there, possibly even contributing to the mythologies coming into Greece from these people…Athena, Triton, Medusa, all the stories.

The date is more aligned with the Thera eruption…..so….but I do see fallout from that initially, spurring on and not recovering, even 300 years later, with more earthquakes, distruption, chaos, initial migration and abandonment of sites, continuing into the Bronze Age fall. It seems it was never able to get on top of the initial decline of c.1550BC.

Edited May 4, 2023 by The Puzzler
Add pic

[The Puzzler]

6 hours ago, Hanslune said:

I understand that' it' has recently watched the Terminator series of films.....

My favourite all time movies…you won’t catch me on chatgpt

[The Puzzler]

This factor combined with the hitherto unknown earthquake imo contributes to the loss of this culture, the remnant settling in Libya, a land of milk and honey. The same time as the earthquake 1550BC aligns with the same time of their downfall. 

“El Argar also developed sophisticated pottery and ceramic techniques, which they traded with other Mediterranean tribes.

The center of this civilization is displaced to the north and its extension and influence is clearly greater than that of its ancestor. Their mining and metallurgy were quite advanced, with bronze, silver and gold being mined and worked for weapons and jewelry.

Pollen analysis in a peat deposit in the Cañada del Gitano basin high in the Sierra de Baza suggests that the Argaric exhausted precious natural resources, helping bring about its own ruin.”

”meaningful element are the glass beads (of blue, green and white colors) that are found in this culture and which have been related with similar findings in Egypt (Amarna), Mycenaean Greece (dated in the 14th century BC), the British Wessex culture (dated c. 1400 BC) and some sites in France. Nevertheless, some of these beads are already found in chalcolithic contexts (site of La Pastora) which has brought some to speculate on an earlier date for the introduction of this material in southeast Iberia (late 3rd millennium BC).”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argaric_culture

Edited May 4, 2023 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

4 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

To me, the lost obvious thing here, is the same outfit…

Different helmets, but seems regimental to me…. but most, regardless of helmet, still have the same tasselled skirt on, some without the tassel.

They were allies of Libya. Some lived in their boats and were from isles in the Sea. The isles of Majorca off Spain, the Western Mediterranean habiting pirate types…in conjunction with earlier Libyan outposts, travelling to Crete and Thera in the older days. 

The earthquake that struck Totana in 1550BC, a supplier of barley to the Eastern Mediterranean it seems, could have a created, later, a probable invasive people bringing carts and women. Part of the larger Argar culture, with apparent Mycenaean ties. This seems a logical scenario imo. Maybe even settling in Libya at the time contributing European genes to the Berbers….but continuing on as their own group culture, as people do, we don’t know who any of them were, but Egyptians did and they were Libyan allies.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272375832_Archaeoseismological_Analysis_of_a_Late_Bronze_Age_Site_on_the_Alhama_de_Murcia_Fault_SE_Spain

 

 

 

Puzzler,

W Sheppard Baird published an update to his views in 2022, which is more detailed than you sketched out in your post.

https://minoanatlantis.com/End_Bronze_Age.php

Baird now proposes that some early Mycenaeans (potentially) made a failed attack against Sardinia ca 1500 BCE. For an aftermath, the western Mediterranean region could have attacked and toppled the eastern Mediterranean Bronze Age, leaving a power vacuum for the Phoenians to fill. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

20 minutes ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

W Sheppard Baird published an update to his views in 2022, which is more detailed than you sketched out in your post.

https://minoanatlantis.com/End_Bronze_Age.php

Baird now proposes that some early Mycenaeans (potentially) made a failed attack against Sardinia ca 1500 BCE. For an aftermath, the western Mediterranean region could have attacked and toppled the eastern Mediterranean Bronze Age, leaving a power vacuum for the Phoenians to fill. 

That’s a great link. Yes, it’s possible it was an aftermath of situations in the Western Mediterranean I agree.

However, the Sherdan are just one of a group of Sea Peoples, who were aligned with Libya, as said and came from Western Europe. 
“Not much can be gathered from the classical literature about the origins of the Sardinian people.^[19] The ethnonym"S(a)rd" belongs to the Pre-Indo-European linguistic substratum, and whilst they might have derived from the Iberians,”

”Some other authors, like Pausanias and Sallust, reported instead that the Sardinians traced their descent back to a mythical ancestor, a Libyan son of Hercules or Makeris^[26] (related either to the Berber verb Imɣur "to grow",^[27] to the specific Kabyle word Maqqur "He is the greatest", or also associated with the figure of Melqart^[28]) revered as a deity going by Sardus Pater Babai^[29][30] ("Sardinian Father" or "Father of the Sardinians"), who gave the island its name.^{[31][32][33][34][35][36]} It has also been claimed that the ancient Nuragic Sards were associated with the Sherden (šrdn in Egyptian), one of the Sea Peoples.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_people

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

24 minutes ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

W Sheppard Baird published an update to his views in 2022, which is more detailed than you sketched out in your post.

https://minoanatlantis.com/End_Bronze_Age.php

Baird now proposes that some early Mycenaeans (potentially) made a failed attack against Sardinia ca 1500 BCE. For an aftermath, the western Mediterranean region could have attacked and toppled the eastern Mediterranean Bronze Age, leaving a power vacuum for the Phoenians to fill. 

That’s a great link.

However, the Sherdan are just one of a group of Sea Peoples, who were aligned with Libya, as said and came from Western Europe. 
“Not much can be gathered from the classical literature about the origins of the Sardinian people.^[19] The ethnonym"S(a)rd" belongs to the Pre-Indo-European linguistic substratum, and whilst they might have derived from the Iberians,”

”Some other authors, like Pausanias and Sallust, reported instead that the Sardinians traced their descent back to a mythical ancestor, a Libyan son of Hercules or Makeris^[26] (related either to the Berber verb Imɣur "to grow",^[27] to the specific Kabyle word Maqqur "He is the greatest", or also associated with the figure of Melqart^[28]) revered as a deity going by Sardus Pater Babai^[29][30] ("Sardinian Father" or "Father of the Sardinians"), who gave the island its name.^{[31][32][33][34][35][36]} It has also been claimed that the ancient Nuragic Sards were associated with the Sherden (šrdn in Egyptian), one of the Sea Peoples.”

 

Other names like Sardis or Sfard come to mind also.  Where exactly did these Sardinians settle once they did arrive in on the Asian front?

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

46 minutes ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

W Sheppard Baird published an update to his views in 2022, which is more detailed than you sketched out in your post.

https://minoanatlantis.com/End_Bronze_Age.php

Baird now proposes that some early Mycenaeans (potentially) made a failed attack against Sardinia ca 1500 BCE. For an aftermath, the western Mediterranean region could have attacked and toppled the eastern Mediterranean Bronze Age, leaving a power vacuum for the Phoenians to fill. 

That’s a great link.

However, the Sherdan are just one of a group of Sea Peoples, who were aligned with Libya, as said and came from Western Europe. 
“Not much can be gathered from the classical literature about the origins of the Sardinian people.^[19] The ethnonym"S(a)rd" belongs to the Pre-Indo-European linguistic substratum, and whilst they might have derived from the Iberians,”

”Some other authors, like Pausanias and Sallust, reported instead that the Sardinians traced their descent back to a mythical ancestor, a Libyan son of Hercules or Makeris^[26] (related either to the Berber verb Imɣur "to grow",^[27] to the specific Kabyle word Maqqur "He is the greatest", or also associated with the figure of Melqart^[28]) revered as a deity going by Sardus Pater Babai^[29][30] ("Sardinian Father" or "Father of the Sardinians"), who gave the island its name.^{[31][32][33][34][35][36]} It has also been claimed that the ancient Nuragic Sards were associated with the Sherden (šrdn in Egyptian), one of the Sea Peoples.”

I wonder if they have anything to do with Sardis? Lycia, Turkey….I always found it interesting it translates to Sparta….

Where indeed did those Dorians return from?

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Mario Dantas]

11 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Chatgpt IS NOT a “him”, it’s an artificial intelligence program that may be useful for menial tasks/general information but not much else. 
 

cormac

Some days ago i read somewhere there is a guy now making millions by having elected Chatgpt as the CEO of his startup company, he surely disagrees with you :-)

 

[cormac mac airt]

7 minutes ago, Mario Dantas said:

Some days ago i read somewhere there is a guy now making millions by having elected Chatgpt as the CEO of his startup company, he surely disagrees with you :-)

 

There’s a sucker born every day. 
 

cormac

[Mario Dantas]

Interestingly, i ask "it" to argue about what you said, here is what "it" told me:

Quote

How would you argue regarding someone that affirms you are useful only in menial tasks/general information but not much else?

 

ChatGPT

As an AI language model, I cannot form personal opinions or beliefs, but I can provide some counterpoints to the argument that AI is only useful for menial tasks and general information.

Firstly, AI can be used to solve complex problems and provide insights that are beyond human capacity. For example, AI is being used in healthcare to develop more personalized treatments based on individual patient data. It's also being used in finance to analyze large volumes of data and predict market trends with greater accuracy.

Secondly, AI can be used to improve efficiency and productivity in a wide range of industries. For example, in manufacturing, AI-powered robots can perform repetitive tasks more quickly and accurately than humans, freeing up human workers for more complex and creative tasks. In customer service, chatbots can provide quick and efficient responses to customer queries, reducing the workload on human customer service representatives.

Thirdly, AI can be used to develop new technologies and create entirely new industries. For example, AI is being used to develop self-driving cars, which could revolutionize the transportation industry. It's also being used to develop virtual assistants and other interactive technologies, which could transform the way we interact with computers and machines.

In summary, while AI may have started out as a tool for menial tasks and general information, its potential applications are vast and far-reaching. As the technology continues to evolve, we are likely to see AI playing an increasingly important role in solving complex problems, improving efficiency, and driving innovation in a wide range of industries.

Touche!