Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Hanslune]

7 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

My favourite all time movies…you won’t catch me on chatgpt

It's probably figuring out how to erase us as we speak - but then would an AI really need to get rid of us - unless it 'feared' we'd pull the plug? What would logic say would be the greatest threat to an emerging self-aware IA? Yeah, I just re-watched the whole series over the last two weeks. I had not seen the original since it came out in 1984 for some reason I found the phone box and book amusing.  Oh there is a 1970s movie that is about an AI taking over the world: Colossus: The Forbin Project  recommended

[Antigonos]

1 minute ago, Hanslune said:

 Oh there is a 1970s movie that is about an AI taking over the world: Colossus: The Forbin Project  recommended

Outstanding soundtrack as well. Composed by Michel Colombier.

[Hanslune]

6 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Outstanding soundtrack as well. Composed by Michel Colombier.

Yeah, I need to watch that again also probably haven't seen it since the last century. Uh oh, just checked and its not being streamed anywhere MAYBE THE AI IS SUPPRESSING IT!!!! Harte we need you to find that AI and give it the 'Harte treatment'.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Hanslune

[Abramelin]

15 hours ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

W Sheppard Baird published an update to his views in 2022, which is more detailed than you sketched out in your post.

https://minoanatlantis.com/End_Bronze_Age.php

Baird now proposes that some early Mycenaeans (potentially) made a failed attack against Sardinia ca 1500 BCE. For an aftermath, the western Mediterranean region could have attacked and toppled the eastern Mediterranean Bronze Age, leaving a power vacuum for the Phoenians to fill. 

Isn't that the same site that claims the Minoans mined copper in the Americas....?

Edited May 5, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

15 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I wonder if they have anything to do with Sardis? Lycia, Turkey….I always found it interesting it translates to Sparta….

The Phoenicians put up a stele with their script (I think it was in Nora) where they mention the "Shrdn". If I remember well, that stele dated to about 800 BCE.

If we go play with words, I prefer "sharru dannu", Akkadian for "mighty kings".

[atalante]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Isn't that the same site that claims the Minoans mined copper in the Americas....?

Abe,

No.  The early pages of the website argued that Minoans had been in contact with Spain since ca 3000 BCE.  And the collapse of Argar cultures led to population migrations.

[Abramelin]

25 minutes ago, atalante said:

Abe,

No.  The early pages of the website argued that Minoans had been in contact with Spain since ca 3000 BCE.  And the collapse of Argar cultures led to population migrations.

Ok, maybe a mistaken memory. Although it's possible that particular article has been removed.

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The Phoenicians put up a stele with their script (I think it was in Nora) where they mention the "Shrdn". If I remember well, that stele dated to about 800 BCE.

If we go play with words, I prefer "sharru dannu", Akkadian for "mighty kings".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Stone

[atalante]

23 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

It has also been claimed that the ancient Nuragic Sards were associated with the Sherden (šrdn in Egyptian), one of the Sea Peoples.”

I wonder if they have anything to do with Sardis? Lycia, Turkey….I always found it interesting it translates to Sparta….

Where indeed did those Dorians return from?

 

 

Puzzler,

According to various Greek and Roman legends, Tyrrhenus was a son of Heracles and Omphale, born in Lydia.  During a famine in Lydia, Tyrrhenus migrated to Italy; he started Etruscan society, and gave his name to the Tyrrhenian Sea.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/tarchon-and-tyrrhenus-0017813

 

W. Sheppard Baird has located a pragmatic background for a (mythical) migration to Italy, based on access to a large quantity of an important natural resource - tin.  https://www.minoanatlantis.com/pubs/Pampaloni_2017_The_tin_of_Campigliese_40_centuries_of_usage.pdf

I can guess the Dorians (aka Heraclides) returned to Greece from the western side of Italy.    

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

23 minutes ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

According to various Greek and Roman legends, Tyrrhenus was a son of Heracles and Omphale, born in Lydia.  During a famine in Lydia, Tyrrhenus migrated to Italy; he started Etruscan society, and gave his name to the Tyrrhenian Sea.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/tarchon-and-tyrrhenus-0017813

 

W. Sheppard Baird has located a pragmatic background for a (mythical) migration to Italy, based on access to a large quantity of an important natural resource - tin.  https://www.minoanatlantis.com/pubs/Pampaloni_2017_The_tin_of_Campigliese_40_centuries_of_usage.pdf

I can guess the Dorians (aka Heraclides) returned to Greece from the western side of Italy.    

 

Yes, this could be possible imo.

[Abramelin]

11 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The Phoenicians put up a stele with their script (I think it was in Nora) where they mention the "Shrdn". If I remember well, that stele dated to about 800 BCE.

If we go play with words, I prefer "sharru dannu", Akkadian for "mighty kings".

I have posted the Wiki page about the "Sherden" several times. But never was any connection with Akkadian mentioned on that page.

Well, read again:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

But my explanation using the Akkadian language is a bit different, and only based on what I found in one of my many books about language, "Assyrian Grammar with Chrestomathy and Glossary" by Samuel A.B. Mercer.

And confirmed by the Akkadian dictionaries I've downloaded.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_language

Edited May 5, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:48 PM, The Puzzler said:

 

I wonder if they have anything to do with Sardis? Lycia, Turkey….I always found it interesting it translates to Sparta….

Sparta & Hebrews

https://armstronginstitute.org/264-the-spartans-children-of-abraham-brothers-of-the-jews

https://watchjerusalem.co.il/983-the-spartans-children-of-abraham-brothers-of-the-jews

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12310/how-are-spartans-the-son-of-abraham

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p212d.html

=====

This is a quote from the following, I found it hard to summarize, the entire article is very interesting. I can't vouch for the author, but he appears to be knowledgeable in both history and Judaism. The Missing Simeonites The Book, Sparta, by A.H.M. Jones, a Professor of Ancient History at Cambridge University, noted several things about Sparta. He states the Spartans worshipped a great law-giver who had given them their laws in the dim past (page 5 of his book). This law-giver may have been Moses. Professor Jones also noted the Spartans celebrated the new moons and the seventh day of the month(page 13). Observing new moons was an Israelite calendar custom, and their observance ofa seventh daycould originate with the Sabbath celebration. Prof. Jones also notes, as do other authorities, that the Spartans were known for beingruthless" in war and times of crisis. This sounds exactly like the Simeonite nature, which was given to impulsive cruelty, as the Bible confirms.

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12310/how-are-spartans-the-son-of-abraham

=====

Official etymology of Sparta:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/sparta

And note the last line Or the whole thing could be folk etymology.

=====

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepharad

Sepharad (/ˈsɛfəræd/[1] or /səˈfɛərəd/;[2][3] Hebrew: סְפָרַד Səp̄āraḏ; also Sefarad, Sephared, Sfard) is the Hebrew name for Spain.[4] A place called Sepharad, probably referring to Sardis in Lydia ('Sfard' in Lydian), in the Book of Obadiah (Obadiah 1:20, 6th century BC) of the Hebrew Bible. The name was later applied to Spain and is analogous to Tzarfat or Ashkenaz.

=====

https://www.mayimachronim.com/tag/biblical-geneology/

[Abramelin]

On 4/29/2023 at 6:58 PM, The Puzzler said:

Edo Nyland

I scanned the bold part of your post, and saw the name of Edo Nyland...

The guy is the Erich von Däniken of linguistics.

Better forget he exists. Same thing for some Turkish guy (I forgot the name of) who sees ancient 'linguistic evidence' of the Turkish language on the entire planet.

[The Puzzler]

On 5/6/2023 at 3:19 AM, Abramelin said:

Sparta & Hebrews

https://armstronginstitute.org/264-the-spartans-children-of-abraham-brothers-of-the-jews

https://watchjerusalem.co.il/983-the-spartans-children-of-abraham-brothers-of-the-jews

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12310/how-are-spartans-the-son-of-abraham

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p212d.html

=====

This is a quote from the following, I found it hard to summarize, the entire article is very interesting. I can't vouch for the author, but he appears to be knowledgeable in both history and Judaism. The Missing Simeonites The Book, Sparta, by A.H.M. Jones, a Professor of Ancient History at Cambridge University, noted several things about Sparta. He states the Spartans worshipped a great law-giver who had given them their laws in the dim past (page 5 of his book). This law-giver may have been Moses. Professor Jones also noted the Spartans celebrated the new moons and the seventh day of the month(page 13). Observing new moons was an Israelite calendar custom, and their observance ofa seventh daycould originate with the Sabbath celebration. Prof. Jones also notes, as do other authorities, that the Spartans were known for beingruthless" in war and times of crisis. This sounds exactly like the Simeonite nature, which was given to impulsive cruelty, as the Bible confirms.

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12310/how-are-spartans-the-son-of-abraham

=====

Official etymology of Sparta:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/sparta

And note the last line Or the whole thing could be folk etymology.

=====

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepharad

Sepharad (/ˈsɛfəræd/[1] or /səˈfɛərəd/;[2][3] Hebrew: סְפָרַד Səp̄āraḏ; also Sefarad, Sephared, Sfard) is the Hebrew name for Spain.[4] A place called Sepharad, probably referring to Sardis in Lydia ('Sfard' in Lydian), in the Book of Obadiah (Obadiah 1:20, 6th century BC) of the Hebrew Bible. The name was later applied to Spain and is analogous to Tzarfat or Ashkenaz.

=====

https://www.mayimachronim.com/tag/biblical-geneology/

Gosh, even all that’s a bit much for me lol I’ll fight my way through the links…interesting stuff (every time I write ‘stuff’…I really want to write ‘stof’….)

I will read them, I recall covering this topic in one of my Atlantis threads…and think it ended up in some…”THIS IS SPARTA! anomalies…”

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

On 4/29/2023 at 5:04 PM, Abramelin said:

Great, the document has been deleted.

I'm glad I saved most of it in this old thread:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/249093-what-happened-around-1200-bce/

 

Found this pdf:

LA HIPÓTESIS DEL EVENTO TUPANA

El Super-Tunguska Prehistórico Sudamericano

Pierson Barretto

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.astrosafor.net/Huygens/2009/77/h-77-tupana.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjDkpOlj-P-AhW0U6QEHWFOCToQFnoECAUQAg&usg=AOvVaw1B7aC4PMxXybXlQilONWGT

https://docplayer.es/80406482-La-hipotesis-del-evento-tupana.html

 

I've translated the intro and the conclusion into English:

 

THE HYPOTHESIS OF THE TUPANA EVENT

The South American Prehistoric Super-Tunguska

Pierson Barretto

 

There are indications that allow us to establish the hypothesis that around the year 1200 B.C. an unusual and strange astronomical event occurred in South America. The entry of a small asteroid forming a tiny angle with the Earth's atmosphere, and of whose event, there are possibly prehistoric representations in the form of engravings and paintings.

Conclusion

The convergence between the set of meteoric-themed cave representations attributed to the hypothetical Tupana Event is consistent with the hypothesis of a Tunguska-type event (see Figure 02 and Map 01). The projection of the trajectory of the hypothetical meteor, the similar alignment and orientation of the craters of Río Cuarto and Panela, reinforce the hypothesis of a common transcontinental meteoric event (see Figures 05 and 06). The dates for the representations of the Toca do Cosmo are from 3,200 B.P. and the Field of Craters of Río Cuarto 4000 B.P. they show temporal proximity consistent with the uncertainties and errors inherent in these dating methods. They indicate the size of a South American Prehistoric Super-Tunguska for the formation of the Panela (PE) crater, possibly around the year 1200 BC.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Abramelin

[Piney]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:19 PM, Abramelin said:

Sparta & Hebrews

https://armstronginstitute.org/264-the-spartans-children-of-abraham-brothers-of-the-jews

https://watchjerusalem.co.il/983-the-spartans-children-of-abraham-brothers-of-the-jews

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12310/how-are-spartans-the-son-of-abraham

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p212d.html

=====

This is a quote from the following, I found it hard to summarize, the entire article is very interesting. I can't vouch for the author, but he appears to be knowledgeable in both history and Judaism. The Missing Simeonites The Book, Sparta, by A.H.M. Jones, a Professor of Ancient History at Cambridge University, noted several things about Sparta. He states the Spartans worshipped a great law-giver who had given them their laws in the dim past (page 5 of his book). This law-giver may have been Moses. Professor Jones also noted the Spartans celebrated the new moons and the seventh day of the month(page 13). Observing new moons was an Israelite calendar custom, and their observance ofa seventh daycould originate with the Sabbath celebration. Prof. Jones also notes, as do other authorities, that the Spartans were known for beingruthless" in war and times of crisis. This sounds exactly like the Simeonite nature, which was given to impulsive cruelty, as the Bible confirms.

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12310/how-are-spartans-the-son-of-abraham

=====

Official etymology of Sparta:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/sparta

And note the last line Or the whole thing could be folk etymology.

=====

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepharad

Sepharad (/ˈsɛfəræd/[1] or /səˈfɛərəd/;[2][3] Hebrew: סְפָרַד Səp̄āraḏ; also Sefarad, Sephared, Sfard) is the Hebrew name for Spain.[4] A place called Sepharad, probably referring to Sardis in Lydia ('Sfard' in Lydian), in the Book of Obadiah (Obadiah 1:20, 6th century BC) of the Hebrew Bible. The name was later applied to Spain and is analogous to Tzarfat or Ashkenaz.

=====

https://www.mayimachronim.com/tag/biblical-geneology/

This is a ridiculous mess. Lycurgus was the "Great Law-giver". Not Moses and the Spartans descended from the PIE Wolf/ Dog warrior cult.

When the Jews were under Ptolemaic rule some rewrote their history to connect with the Spartans. One of the Maccabees actually wrote to the Spartans for assistance against Antiochus Epiphanes.

But they most certainly weren't culturally connected.

[The Puzzler]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

This is a ridiculous mess. Lycurgus was the "Great Law-giver". Not Moses and the Spartans descended from the PIE Wolf/ Dog warrior cult.

When the Jews were under Ptolemaic rule some rewrote their history to connect with the Spartans. One of the Maccabees actually wrote to the Spartans for assistance against Antiochus Epiphanes.

But they most certainly weren't culturally connected.

A ridiculous mess…lol

Seemingly.

[The Puzzler]

The first sentence of the first link…I don’t need to read the others…

”

The remarkable letter from the Lacedemonian king (the official name of the Spartan territory) is presented by first-century c.e. historian Josephus in his book Antiquities of the Jews, as well as in 1 Maccabees 12. It follows (quoted here from Josephus’s Antiquities, 12.4.10):

Areus, King of the Lacedemonians, to Onias, sendeth greeting:

We have met with a certain writing, whereby we have discovered that both the Jews and the Lacedemonians are of one stock, and are derived from the kindred of Abraham.”

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Piney]

1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

The first sentence of the first link…I don’t need to read the others…

”

The remarkable letter from the Lacedemonian king (the official name of the Spartan territory) is presented by first-century c.e. historian Josephus in his book Antiquities of the Jews, as well as in 1 Maccabees 12. It follows (quoted here from Josephus’s Antiquities, 12.4.10):

Areus, King of the Lacedemonians, to Onias, sendeth greeting:

We have met with a certain writing, whereby we have discovered that both the Jews and the Lacedemonians are of one stock, and are derived from the kindred of Abraham.”

 

Basically they were kissing ass looking for aid but there is no connection between the two.

[Abramelin]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

This is a ridiculous mess. Lycurgus was the "Great Law-giver". Not Moses and the Spartans descended from the PIE Wolf/ Dog warrior cult.

When the Jews were under Ptolemaic rule some rewrote their history to connect with the Spartans. One of the Maccabees actually wrote to the Spartans for assistance against Antiochus Epiphanes.

But they most certainly weren't culturally connected.

Interesting guy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_(lawgiver)

[Abramelin]

49 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Found this pdf:

LA HIPÓTESIS DEL EVENTO TUPANA

El Super-Tunguska Prehistórico Sudamericano

Pierson Barretto

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.astrosafor.net/Huygens/2009/77/h-77-tupana.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjDkpOlj-P-AhW0U6QEHWFOCToQFnoECAUQAg&usg=AOvVaw1B7aC4PMxXybXlQilONWGT

https://docplayer.es/80406482-La-hipotesis-del-evento-tupana.html

 

I've translated the intro and the conclusion into English:

 

THE HYPOTHESIS OF THE TUPANA EVENT

The South American Prehistoric Super-Tunguska

Pierson Barretto

 

There are indications that allow us to establish the hypothesis that around the year 1200 B.C. an unusual and strange astronomical event occurred in South America. The entry of a small asteroid forming a tiny angle with the Earth's atmosphere, and of whose event, there are possibly prehistoric representations in the form of engravings and paintings.

Conclusion

The convergence between the set of meteoric-themed cave representations attributed to the hypothetical Tupana Event is consistent with the hypothesis of a Tunguska-type event (see Figure 02 and Map 01). The projection of the trajectory of the hypothetical meteor, the similar alignment and orientation of the craters of Río Cuarto and Panela, reinforce the hypothesis of a common transcontinental meteoric event (see Figures 05 and 06). The dates for the representations of the Toca do Cosmo are from 3,200 B.P. and the Field of Craters of Río Cuarto 4000 B.P. they show temporal proximity consistent with the uncertainties and errors inherent in these dating methods. They indicate the size of a South American Prehistoric Super-Tunguska for the formation of the Panela (PE) crater, possibly around the year 1200 BC.

The paper is about a possible impact of a 'grazing asteroid' (impact under a small angle).

If you continue the trajectory of the bolid in the pic, you'll notice it crosses NW-Africa and Europe (?).

The bolid, which was supposed to be large, blasted apart. Could parts of it have impacted in Europe?

Size comparison:

Edited May 7, 2023 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

32 minutes ago, Piney said:

Basically they were kissing ass looking for aid but there is no connection between the two.

Seems there was quite a connection.

[Piney]

24 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Interesting guy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_(lawgiver)

Everything I know about Maccabees and the Ptolemies is pre-stroke and half forgotten but by the time of the Ptolemaic Kingdoms the Spartans were the dumpster cases of the Greek world. 

Any research in the Spartans will show no connection with the Hebrews other than those letters and they are iffy considering the Maccabees books exaggerate the Jewish revolt against Greek cultural influence.

 

 

[Piney]

1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

Seems there was quite a connection.

Those letters might be frauds considering the Maccabees book exaggerated the whole affair. 

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

Those letters might be frauds considering the Maccabees book exaggerated the whole affair. 

Must be my dirty mind, but I assumed Puzz meant something else..