Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Alchopwn]

9 hours ago, Abramelin said:

This is what I meant to ask: did the Algonqians sail the seas around 1200 bce.

It is unlikely.  It is very interesting that one of the few languages that has any connection to the Basque language is Algonquian, but this is likely through the pidgin language of Souriquois, but this likely developed during the period after Columbus.  Is it possible that it is older?  Yes.  How much older?  IDK.  1200 bce?  IDK, but my "magic 8 ball" says it's unlikely.

On the other hand, something that isn't talked about nearly enough is that the Gauls had a proper fleet capable of sailing the Atlantic during the time of Julius Caesar.  Caesar was scared to put Roman galleys to sea to face them, but a period in his campaign came when there was no wind, and the galleys had the advantage and attacked, smashing the Gallic fleet, and the general Roman genocide of the Gauls meant that the ship builders were likely murdered or enslaved.  Interestingly, there are scattered sites in North America that tend to suggest some measure of Celtic contact.  It is likely they were not alone.  I suspect quite a few civilizations may have bumped into the Americas before Columbus, but because they were pre-Christian, it never happened.  The physical evidence is a bit sketchy, but far from non-existent.  I'd have to make a bit of a sliding plausibility scale for many of the claims being made, but the Norse are now a fact, so who knows?

As for Algonquians making the Atlantic crossing.  I can't see a birchbark canoe making the trip, so it is unlikely that the Algonquians would have made the crossing alone, but they may have sailed on someone else's ship.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Alchopwn

[jmccr8]

9 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

All it takes to essentially disappear, especially since most ancient cultures were patriarchal, is for male lineages to either NOT produce male heirs OR to produce MANY MORE females. Within 200 years the original male lineages can and will fade into the background genetic "noise". Keep in mind that the Y Chromosome Haplogroups and the Mitochondrial Haplogroups DO NOT originate at the same time nor have their migrations met a 1:1 correlation. 

cormac

Hi Cormac

I didn’t look before asking but was wondering if there may have been a high enough period of taking women as slaves to create the short term presence in genetics 

[cormac mac airt]

7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cormac

I didn’t look before asking but was wondering if there may have been a high enough period of taking women as slaves to create the short term presence in genetics 

Not in this case as both genders moved into the Levant and they didn’t move in as slaves, more like displaced immigrants. 
 

cormac

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Not in this case as both genders moved into the Levant and they didn’t move in as slaves, more like displaced immigrants. 
 

cormac

Hi Cormac

Thanks and I was just pondering in a general sense if an increase of foreign females over a duration of time would be significant enough to notice in a population 

[Hanslune]

All very interesting gentlemen, thanks for the discussion.

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cormac

Thanks and I was just pondering in a general sense if an increase of foreign females over a duration of time would be significant enough to notice in a population 

Foreign females with a different mitochondrial DNA haplogroup would most definitely be noticeable in significant numbers as being different from an indigenous population. 

cormac

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Foreign females with a different mitochondrial DNA haplogroup would most definitely be noticeable in significant numbers as being different from an indigenous population. 

cormac

Hi Cormac

Thanks again and that is what I was thinking and should have been a little more specific when I said foreign 

[atalante]

On 9/18/2022 at 11:49 AM, Abramelin said:

......

I started this thread because I have always wondered why the Phoenician cities remained out of harms way during the invasion of the (Land and) Sea Peoples around 1200 bce.

Whatever did they do to protect themselves from the invasion?

Or did they participate in the invasion? I don't think so.

Did they pay the invaders?

What?

 

Just this: the Phoenicians became the rulers of the Mediterranean sea right after the defeat of the Sea Peoples by the Egyptians.

That can't be a coincidence, right?

 

Abe,

In regard to why the Sea Peoples (probably) did NOT destroy most Phoenician cities:   The Phoenicians did not live in swamplands, and an extreme drought was happening at that time.  But a swampy place with abundant fresh water was near the northernmost Phoenician city (Arvad).

According to Egyptian records, the original conquest by a group that Egypt's Medinat Habu called the "Sea Peoples", was a swampy-lake region now called the Amuq plain, a little north of Alalakh.  Since this invasion occurred at a time of severe drought (ca. 1200 BCE), the invaders presumably only wanted to seize places with an abundance of fresh water.  The invaders apparently set up a new home-base at Tell Tayinat (which was in the general region of Amuru/Amor, and more specifically in the Amuq plain).

 

from:  http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Medinet_Habu/Medinet_Habu.htm

The countries -- --, the [Northerners] in their isles were disturbed, taken away in the [fray] -- at one time. Not one stood before their hands, from Kheta, Kode, Carchemish, Arvad, Alashia, they were wasted. {The}y {[set up]} a camp in one place in Amor. They desolated his people and his land like that which is not. They came with fire prepared before them, forward to Egypt. Their main support was Peleset, Tjekker, Shekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh.

 

The new home-base of these invaders, in Amor/Amurru, was sometimes called the "land of Palistin", on a tell that had been abandoned for several centuries before their 1200 BCE invasion.

from:  https://crane.utoronto.ca/tell-tayinat.html

Abandoned from the Middle through Late Bronze Age, Tayinat came to replace Tell Atchana as the primary urban center beginning in the 12th century BCE. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence from Tayinat document the rise of a powerful regional kingdom associated with the "Land of Palistin", ruled by a line of kings with Hittite names, yet with strong Aegean cultural ties. Later in the Iron Age II, it was transformed into Kunulua, the seat of a powerful regional state called Patina/ Unqi, with a mix of Aegean, Anatolian (or Luwian), and Bronze Age West Syrian cultural traditions.

Edited September 22, 2022 by atalante

[Abramelin]

20 hours ago, Autistocrates said:

I don't see any helmets

Because, like you didn't quote from my post, the mural isn't much exact.

It is general knowledge that the Egyptians were circumcised. I also quoted from the Wikipage about the history of circumcision.

[Abramelin]

12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

It is unlikely.  It is very interesting that one of the few languages that has any connection to the Basque language is Algonquian, but this is likely through the pidgin language of Souriquois, but this likely developed during the period after Columbus.  Is it possible that it is older?  Yes.  How much older?  IDK.  1200 bce?  IDK, but my "magic 8 ball" says it's unlikely.

On the other hand, something that isn't talked about nearly enough is that the Gauls had a proper fleet capable of sailing the Atlantic during the time of Julius Caesar.  Caesar was scared to put Roman galleys to sea to face them, but a period in his campaign came when there was no wind, and the galleys had the advantage and attacked, smashing the Gallic fleet, and the general Roman genocide of the Gauls meant that the ship builders were likely murdered or enslaved.  Interestingly, there are scattered sites in North America that tend to suggest some measure of Celtic contact.  It is likely they were not alone.  I suspect quite a few civilizations may have bumped into the Americas before Columbus, but because they were pre-Christian, it never happened.  The physical evidence is a bit sketchy, but far from non-existent.  I'd have to make a bit of a sliding plausibility scale for many of the claims being made, but the Norse are now a fact, so who knows?

As for Algonquians making the Atlantic crossing.  I can't see a birchbark canoe making the trip, so it is unlikely that the Algonquians would have made the crossing alone, but they may have sailed on someone else's ship.

To be honest, I wasn't thàt serious when I asked Piney about it.

Why would they be one of the Sea Peoples?

-

You mentioned the Gauls. You probably mean the Veneti who had excellent ships. Btw., there are those who see a connection between Veneti and Phoenicians.

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, atalante said:

Abe,

In regard to why the Sea Peoples (probably) did NOT destroy most Phoenician cities:   The Phoenicians did not live in swamplands, and an extreme drought was happening at that time.  But a swampy place with abundant fresh water was near the northernmost Phoenician city (Arvad).

According to Egyptian records, the original conquest by a group that Egypt's Medinat Habu called the "Sea Peoples", was a swampy-lake region now called the Amuq plain, a little north of Alalakh.  Since this invasion occurred at a time of severe drought (ca. 1200 BCE), the invaders presumably only wanted to seize places with an abundance of fresh water.  The invaders apparently set up a new home-base at Tell Tayinat (which was in the general region of Amuru/Amor, and more specifically in the Amuq plain).

 

from:  http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Medinet_Habu/Medinet_Habu.htm

The countries -- --, the [Northerners] in their isles were disturbed, taken away in the [fray] -- at one time. Not one stood before their hands, from Kheta, Kode, Carchemish, Arvad, Alashia, they were wasted. {The}y {[set up]} a camp in one place in Amor. They desolated his people and his land like that which is not. They came with fire prepared before them, forward to Egypt. Their main support was Peleset, Tjekker, Shekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh.

 

The new home-base of these invaders, in Amor/Amurru, was sometimes called the "land of Palistin", on a tell that had been abandoned for several centuries before their 1200 BCE invasion.

from:  https://crane.utoronto.ca/tell-tayinat.html

Abandoned from the Middle through Late Bronze Age, Tayinat came to replace Tell Atchana as the primary urban center beginning in the 12th century BCE. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence from Tayinat document the rise of a powerful regional kingdom associated with the "Land of Palistin", ruled by a line of kings with Hittite names, yet with strong Aegean cultural ties. Later in the Iron Age II, it was transformed into Kunulua, the seat of a powerful regional state called Patina/ Unqi, with a mix of Aegean, Anatolian (or Luwian), and Bronze Age West Syrian cultural traditions.

Atalante, this is a great post

And I have something for you:

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/free-chapters/the-philistines-and-sea-people-not-the-same-entity/

The whole - or most of - Ganor's book:

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/phenicos_new(2).pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiMwrztzZvwAhUZH-wKHf-FB0YQFjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw37AMb0XQn91RObebQQCnjg

[Piney]

13 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

It is unli

57 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

You mentioned the Gauls. You probably mean the Veneti who had excellent ships. Btw., there are those who see a connection between Veneti and Phoenicians.

I do. Via the Celto-Iberians.

13 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

 

kely.  It is very interesting that one of the few languages that has any connection to the Basque language is Algonquian, but this is likely through the pidgin language of Souriquois, but this likely developed during the period after Columbus.  Is it possible that it is older?  Yes.  How much older?  IDK.  1200 bce?  IDK, but my "magic 8 ball" says it's unlikely.

On the other hand, something that isn't talked about nearly enough is that the Gauls had a proper fleet capable of sailing the Atlantic during the time of Julius Caesar.  Caesar was scared to put Roman galleys to sea to face them, but a period in his campaign came when there was no wind, and the galleys had the advantage and attacked, smashing the Gallic fleet, and the general Roman genocide of the Gauls meant that the ship builders were likely murdered or enslaved.  Interestingly, there are scattered sites in North America that tend to suggest some measure of Celtic contact.  It is likely they were not alone.  I suspect quite a few civilizations may have bumped into the Americas before Columbus, but because they were pre-Christian, it never happened.  The physical evidence is a bit sketchy, but far from non-existent.  I'd have to make a bit of a sliding plausibility scale for many of the claims being made, but the Norse are now a fact, so who knows?

As for Algonquians making the Atlantic crossing.  I can't see a birchbark canoe making the trip, so it is unlikely that the Algonquians would have made the crossing alone, but they may have sailed on someone else's ship.

Basque fishermen were hobknobbing with us since the 1500s. Maybe even earlier because they kept their fishing grounds secret.

The Celts had bigger boats than Ceasar, but they were still only coast huggers and had no open water navigation capabilities.

As for our language being related.......no. But I still have to read the ink.

 

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

The Celts had bigger boats than Ceasar, but they were still only coast huggers and had no open water navigation capabilities.

You have a source for that?

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

As for our language being related.......no. But I still have to read the ink.

Probably based on Barry Fell.

Hmmm...

[Autistocrates]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

...I also quoted from the Wikipage about the history of circumcision.

Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, simply becausr anybody could go there and alter already existing claims.

That mural isn't accurate enuff for telling the difference between circumcision and contracting out personal hygiene to slaves. Besides, that mural is the only visual information we have to go by.

If the authentic Egyptians (contemporary "Egyptians" are nothing more than the descendants of Bedouin squatters who have taken advantage of an ethnic group of whom has gone extinct through their own liberal immigration policies. Thus, leaving a vaccuum) were clever enough to practice advanced medicine, why then would they contract out medical practices to slaves? If you were to be enslaved, wouldn't you be tempted into snipping off more of your master's skin or at least snip it in a manner of which wouldn't be propper to his well-being?

Here, a closer look at that vague and subject-to-interpretation mural:

[Piney]

46 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

You have a source for that?

Caesar's Gallic Wars,  leather sails and no compass. 

......don't hit me......

[Alchopwn]

12 hours ago, Piney said:

The Celts had bigger boats than Ceasar, but they were still only coast huggers and had no open water navigation capabilities.

Evidence suggests that the Celtic ships may have been larger and more sea-worthy than that.  Julius himself remarks on the high prows and sterns, unusual rigging, and large structural timbers of Celtic ships, suggesting they were far more ocean-going and hardy than Roman galleys.  These were not rowed galleys by sailing ships being brought up the coast to face the Romans at war.

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Alchopwn

[Piney]

8 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Evidence suggests that the Celtic ships may have been larger and more sea-worthy than that.  Julius himself remarks on the high prows and sterns, unusual rigging, and large structural timbers of Celtic ships, suggesting they were far more ocean-going and hardy than Roman galleys.  These were not rowed galleys by sailing ships being brought up the coast to face the Romans at war.

I don't disagree. But a leather sail would not do well in the open ocean crossing . It would rot, especially if it was sewn with plant based twine and stiffen from the sun and salt air over a long period and the Celts only sailed during the day and navigated using the coastline. 

I wanted to add from earlier that I think Oak Island was a Basque fishing station where they interacted with the Mikmak. 

 

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

To be honest, I wasn't thàt serious when I asked Piney about it.

Why would they be one of the Sea Peoples?

-

You mentioned the Gauls. You probably mean the Veneti who had excellent ships. Btw., there are those who see a connection between Veneti and Phoenicians.

Although there was probably more than 20 of them…..

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Although there was probably more than 20 of them…..

More then 20 sea peoples?

[Abramelin]

11 hours ago, Piney said:

 

I wanted to add from earlier that I think Oak Island was a Basque fishing station where they interacted with the Mikmak. 

And the Mikmak had a script that resembled the Egyptian hieroglyphs. Well, according to Barry Fell that is.

I posted about their script not that long ago. It was in a thread that somehow sidetracked into Native American script.

Maybe the Mikmak had a reason to get even with the Egyptians?

Cheers!

Edited to add link:

https://www.starmythworld.com/mathisencorollary/2011/07/case-of-micmac-hieroglyphs-powerful.html

Edited September 23, 2022 by Abramelin

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And the Mikmak had a script that resembled the Egyptian hieroglyphs. Well, according to Barry Fell that is.

I posted about their script not that long ago. It was in a thread that somehow sidetracked into Native American script.

Maybe the Mikmak had a reason to get even with the Egyptians?

Cheers!

Edited to add link:

https://www.starmythworld.com/mathisencorollary/2011/07/case-of-micmac-hieroglyphs-powerful.html

It was developed about 1676 by a Father Le Clercq,a missionary for religious translation reasons using Midi Symbols

Just like the so-called "Templar" pictographs on Oak Island.

Mikmak Meteiinuus adopted Jesuit symbolism along with Midi for their "Greeting of the Sun" ceremonies and that's exactly what they are on Oak Island. Any traditional Waabanaapi ( Coastal Algonquian) will tell you that.

Don't even go there with our sacred script. I'm ****ing serious........and Barry Fell can kiss my yellow ass...

 

[acute]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:16 PM, Autistocrates said:

Here, a closer look at that vague and subject-to-interpretation mural:

Vague and subject to interpretation?

I'm pretty certain I know exactly what's happening! 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

More then 20 sea peoples?

Venti means 20 in Italian

[Autistocrates]

8 hours ago, acute said:

...I know exactly what's happening! 

So do I. The slave on the right is getting patted on the head for pulling his master's knob

Edited September 24, 2022 by Autistocrates