Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well, you'd think that if the Phoenecians are trading with the people of Tartessos that they are likely to call them by a name they can easily pronounce when they refer to them.  The Tartessians also borrowed the Phoenecian script.  You're probably correct, but if it isn't proven then we cannot say for certain.

Maybe 1000- 850BC at earliest.

Edited June 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The dates get me and the whole thing is a hypothetical idea.

Names like the Sherdan who were attacking Egypt in Year 2 of Ramesses reign….before the Battle of Kadesh, then attacking again as Sea People one hundred years later…..so three generations later we see the same people who attacked but were captured and became mercenaries for Egypt against Kadesh,” the unruly Sherdan” as well as the Lukka appearing again, the whole thing smells of relics of the Battle of Kadesh and the uprisings of disgruntled societies from the fallout. Whether there was a gap of one hundred years between the two, especially the mentions of Sherdan and Lukka, you’d have to think they were around for one hundred years, still, after Kadesh…well..

[The Puzzler]

The Lukka were the leaders of the main Sea People advance over Eastern Mediterranean.

Concurrently the Libyan/Sherdan contingent were attacking the West of Egypt. Egyot succeeded, and Libyans set up in Sais.

The Lukka has the Ugaritic ships, as shown, it was these ships, and Warriors of Ugarit who in fact sacked their own city, Alashya/Cyprus and other close lands.

[Piney]

47 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I know. That's why I mentioned the chariot (pulled by 2 horses) as another symbol of Astarte.

Kybele too. But her chariots were pulled by lions. They probably all have a common origin. 

[atalante]

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I could only agree if the Phoenecian link is very emphasized.  That -ish ending is not Celtiberian, and nor is "sh" in general afaik.  They are much more Middle Eastern in origin imo.

Recent archeological finds from the 10th century BCE in Huelva suggest that Huelva was the Tarshish of the bible (and thus Tarshish could be close to a Phoenician/semitic name).  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos#Archaeological_discoveries

 

The second "t" letter in the name Tartessos might be a garble that was first used near the time when Greek merchant Colaeus discovered this region (ca 640 BCE). 

 

 

[The Puzzler]

21 minutes ago, Piney said:

Kybele too. But her chariots were pulled by lions. They probably all have a common origin. 

No, Astarte is relative to Baal, Ugarit, Canaanite religion…Kybele, Cybele is not this religion, she is Anatolian. 
 

This is why I think Ugarit refugees removed to Phoenician lands as we find the same religion there, later. 

[The Puzzler]

17 minutes ago, atalante said:

Recent archeological finds from the 10th century BCE in Huelva suggest that Huelva was the Tarshish of the bible (and thus Tarshish could be close to a Phoenician/semitic name).  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos#Archaeological_discoveries

 

The second "t" letter in the name Tartessos might be a garble that was first used near the time when Greek merchant Colaeus discovered this region (ca 640 BCE). 

 

 

I agree, the name of the Sea People Teresh can not be Tartessos.

[Piney]

9 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

No, Astarte is relative to Baal, Ugarit, Canaanite religion…Kybele, Cybele is not this religion, she is Anatolian. 
 

This is why I think Ugarit refugees removed to Phoenician lands as we find the same religion there, later. 

She was El's wife and Baal's mother. But they might have been given each other's aspects when Anatolian farmers began spreading into the ME. 

[The Puzzler]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

She was El's wife and Baal's mother. But they might have been given each other's aspects when Anatolian farmers began spreading into the ME. 

No, I don’t think so.

Only through Canaanite sources. Onwards, to Phoenician….it rose at this exact time, 1200BC, the Phoenicians imo descend from. Ugarit.

Edited June 4 by The Puzzler

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

No, I don’t think so.

Only through Canaanite sources. Onwards, to Phoenician….it rose at this exact time, 1200BC, the Phoenicians imo descend from. Ugarit.

The IE brought in chariots. Prior to that they weren't known in the Middle East. So how did Astarte get that aspect? 

[The Puzzler]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

The IE brought in chariots. Prior to that they weren't known in the Middle East. So how did Astarte get that aspect? 

Huh…all I can make of this is Ugarit were versed in chariot warfare via the Battle of Kadesh. 
You’re talking thousands of years before Kadesh, of IE people bringing in chariots. ie the Androvono Culture.

Edited June 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I’ll repeat…to the Ugarit King…

”Eshuwara, the senior governor of Cyprus, responded:

As for the matter concerning those enemies: (it was) the people from your country (and) your own ships (who) did this! And (it was) the people from your country (who) committed these transgression(s) ... I am writing to inform you and protect you. Be aware”

 

[The Puzzler]

The fall of the Bronze Age was caused by a rebellion of an anti Hittite uprising. 

Edited June 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Wak!

[The Puzzler]

The fall of Troy is contained in this somewhere…maybe 

A Sea People”attack by a Lukka/Anzawaa anti-Hittite union, that had entered Greece, who became known as the Achaeans.

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, atalante said:

The second "t" letter in the name Tartessos might be a garble that was first used near the time when Greek merchant Colaeus discovered this region (ca 640 BCE). 

 

I'm glad a linguist here agrees with my explanation of the name as being possible. Another one didn't.

 

Tartessos only became famous as an entity after the Phoenicians/Carthaginians settled in what's now Cadiz. That alone could explain the Semitic origin of the name. Just like Cadiz comes from the Roman Gades, which in turn came from the Semitic Qadesh (=Holy).

And the -os ending of the name 'Tartessos' is of Greek origin.

Edited June 4 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

The fall of Troy is contained in this somewhere…maybe 

A Sea People”attack by a Lukka/Anzawaa anti-Hittite union, that had entered Greece, who became known as the Achaeans.

I think the fall of Troy is just one of the many battles taking place in middle, northern, southern and eastern Europe, the Middle East and northern Africa (Egypt).

The story about Helen, Paris and Agamemnon was nothing but tabloid bs.

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

The fall of the Bronze Age was caused by a rebellion of an anti Hittite uprising. 

I hope I made it clear in this thread that it was more than an anti-Hittite uprising.

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Wak!

Heh, I know you want to drag the OLB into this, but the OLB doesn't spend a single word about the mayhem occurring in most of Europe, the Middle East and the Med.

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

The IE brought in chariots. Prior to that they weren't known in the Middle East. So how did Astarte get that aspect? 

Well, maybe the IE weren't the people introducing the chariots?

Or the Phoenicians adopted those chariots as a symbol for one of their goddesses.

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

No, I don’t think so.

Only through Canaanite sources. Onwards, to Phoenician….it rose at this exact time, 1200BC, the Phoenicians imo descend from. Ugarit.

I have another idea: they descended from Ebla.

Edited June 4 by Abramelin

[Piney]

42 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Well, maybe the IE weren't the people introducing the chariots?

Or the Phoenicians adopted those chariots as a symbol for one of their goddesses.

They were the first to have it and the Andronovo was the first to have the spoked wheel so far as we know. A early one might be discovered at a later date though.

[Piney]

45 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Well, maybe the IE weren't the people introducing the chariots?

Or the Phoenicians adopted those chariots as a symbol for one of their goddesses.

That's what I was trying to explain to Puz. Syncretism has been going on since recorded history and Astarte might have been given Kybele's aspects......but I wasn't awake yet. 

[docyabut2]

8 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

 

Another example of the double bird-head war ship of the Sea Peoples.

 

 

So where did these boats come from with the double bird-head?

[Abramelin]

Just now, docyabut2 said:

So where did these boats come from with the double bird-head?

Yóu made it up, so yóu tell us.

But it's not Tartessos.