The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #951 Share Posted June 4, 2023 The Lukka were the leaders of the main Sea People advance over Eastern Mediterranean. Concurrently the Libyan/Sherdan contingent were attacking the West of Egypt. Egyot succeeded, and Libyans set up in Sais. The Lukka has the Ugaritic ships, as shown, it was these ships, and Warriors of Ugarit who in fact sacked their own city, Alashya/Cyprus and other close lands. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted June 4, 2023 #952 Share Posted June 4, 2023 47 minutes ago, Abramelin said: I know. That's why I mentioned the chariot (pulled by 2 horses) as another symbol of Astarte. Kybele too. But her chariots were pulled by lions. They probably all have a common origin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalante Posted June 4, 2023 #953 Share Posted June 4, 2023 3 hours ago, Alchopwn said: I could only agree if the Phoenecian link is very emphasized. That -ish ending is not Celtiberian, and nor is "sh" in general afaik. They are much more Middle Eastern in origin imo. Recent archeological finds from the 10th century BCE in Huelva suggest that Huelva was the Tarshish of the bible (and thus Tarshish could be close to a Phoenician/semitic name). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos#Archaeological_discoveries The second "t" letter in the name Tartessos might be a garble that was first used near the time when Greek merchant Colaeus discovered this region (ca 640 BCE). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #954 Share Posted June 4, 2023 21 minutes ago, Piney said: Kybele too. But her chariots were pulled by lions. They probably all have a common origin. No, Astarte is relative to Baal, Ugarit, Canaanite religion…Kybele, Cybele is not this religion, she is Anatolian. This is why I think Ugarit refugees removed to Phoenician lands as we find the same religion there, later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #955 Share Posted June 4, 2023 17 minutes ago, atalante said: Recent archeological finds from the 10th century BCE in Huelva suggest that Huelva was the Tarshish of the bible (and thus Tarshish could be close to a Phoenician/semitic name). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos#Archaeological_discoveries The second "t" letter in the name Tartessos might be a garble that was first used near the time when Greek merchant Colaeus discovered this region (ca 640 BCE). I agree, the name of the Sea People Teresh can not be Tartessos. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted June 4, 2023 #956 Share Posted June 4, 2023 9 minutes ago, The Puzzler said: No, Astarte is relative to Baal, Ugarit, Canaanite religion…Kybele, Cybele is not this religion, she is Anatolian. This is why I think Ugarit refugees removed to Phoenician lands as we find the same religion there, later. She was El's wife and Baal's mother. But they might have been given each other's aspects when Anatolian farmers began spreading into the ME. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #957 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Piney said: She was El's wife and Baal's mother. But they might have been given each other's aspects when Anatolian farmers began spreading into the ME. No, I don’t think so. Only through Canaanite sources. Onwards, to Phoenician….it rose at this exact time, 1200BC, the Phoenicians imo descend from. Ugarit. Edited June 4, 2023 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted June 4, 2023 #958 Share Posted June 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, The Puzzler said: No, I don’t think so. Only through Canaanite sources. Onwards, to Phoenician….it rose at this exact time, 1200BC, the Phoenicians imo descend from. Ugarit. The IE brought in chariots. Prior to that they weren't known in the Middle East. So how did Astarte get that aspect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #959 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Piney said: The IE brought in chariots. Prior to that they weren't known in the Middle East. So how did Astarte get that aspect? Huh…all I can make of this is Ugarit were versed in chariot warfare via the Battle of Kadesh. You’re talking thousands of years before Kadesh, of IE people bringing in chariots. ie the Androvono Culture. Edited June 4, 2023 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #960 Share Posted June 4, 2023 I’ll repeat…to the Ugarit King… ”Eshuwara, the senior governor of Cyprus, responded: As for the matter concerning those enemies: (it was) the people from your country (and) your own ships (who) did this! And (it was) the people from your country (who) committed these transgression(s) ... I am writing to inform you and protect you. Be aware” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #961 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) The fall of the Bronze Age was caused by a rebellion of an anti Hittite uprising. Edited June 4, 2023 by The Puzzler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #962 Share Posted June 4, 2023 Wak! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 4, 2023 #963 Share Posted June 4, 2023 The fall of Troy is contained in this somewhere…maybe A Sea People”attack by a Lukka/Anzawaa anti-Hittite union, that had entered Greece, who became known as the Achaeans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 4, 2023 Author #964 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, atalante said: The second "t" letter in the name Tartessos might be a garble that was first used near the time when Greek merchant Colaeus discovered this region (ca 640 BCE). I'm glad a linguist here agrees with my explanation of the name as being possible. Another one didn't. Tartessos only became famous as an entity after the Phoenicians/Carthaginians settled in what's now Cadiz. That alone could explain the Semitic origin of the name. Just like Cadiz comes from the Roman Gades, which in turn came from the Semitic Qadesh (=Holy). And the -os ending of the name 'Tartessos' is of Greek origin. Edited June 4, 2023 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 4, 2023 Author #965 Share Posted June 4, 2023 1 hour ago, The Puzzler said: The fall of Troy is contained in this somewhere…maybe A Sea People”attack by a Lukka/Anzawaa anti-Hittite union, that had entered Greece, who became known as the Achaeans. I think the fall of Troy is just one of the many battles taking place in middle, northern, southern and eastern Europe, the Middle East and northern Africa (Egypt). The story about Helen, Paris and Agamemnon was nothing but tabloid bs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 4, 2023 Author #966 Share Posted June 4, 2023 2 hours ago, The Puzzler said: The fall of the Bronze Age was caused by a rebellion of an anti Hittite uprising. I hope I made it clear in this thread that it was more than an anti-Hittite uprising. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 4, 2023 Author #967 Share Posted June 4, 2023 2 hours ago, The Puzzler said: Wak! Heh, I know you want to drag the OLB into this, but the OLB doesn't spend a single word about the mayhem occurring in most of Europe, the Middle East and the Med. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 4, 2023 Author #968 Share Posted June 4, 2023 2 hours ago, Piney said: The IE brought in chariots. Prior to that they weren't known in the Middle East. So how did Astarte get that aspect? Well, maybe the IE weren't the people introducing the chariots? Or the Phoenicians adopted those chariots as a symbol for one of their goddesses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 4, 2023 Author #969 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, The Puzzler said: No, I don’t think so. Only through Canaanite sources. Onwards, to Phoenician….it rose at this exact time, 1200BC, the Phoenicians imo descend from. Ugarit. I have another idea: they descended from Ebla. Edited June 4, 2023 by Abramelin 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted June 4, 2023 #970 Share Posted June 4, 2023 42 minutes ago, Abramelin said: Well, maybe the IE weren't the people introducing the chariots? Or the Phoenicians adopted those chariots as a symbol for one of their goddesses. They were the first to have it and the Andronovo was the first to have the spoked wheel so far as we know. A early one might be discovered at a later date though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted June 4, 2023 #971 Share Posted June 4, 2023 45 minutes ago, Abramelin said: Well, maybe the IE weren't the people introducing the chariots? Or the Phoenicians adopted those chariots as a symbol for one of their goddesses. That's what I was trying to explain to Puz. Syncretism has been going on since recorded history and Astarte might have been given Kybele's aspects......but I wasn't awake yet. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted June 4, 2023 #972 Share Posted June 4, 2023 8 hours ago, docyabut2 said: Another example of the double bird-head war ship of the Sea Peoples. So where did these boats come from with the double bird-head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 4, 2023 Author #973 Share Posted June 4, 2023 Just now, docyabut2 said: So where did these boats come from with the double bird-head? Yóu made it up, so yóu tell us. But it's not Tartessos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalante Posted June 4, 2023 #974 Share Posted June 4, 2023 8 hours ago, The Puzzler said: The fall of the Bronze Age was caused by a rebellion of an anti Hittite uprising. I agree. There was a Greco-Roman mythical explanation for how the Phoenicians came to power ca 1200 BCE. After the Trojan war, there was a mythical campaign against Cyprus by a mythical King Belus of Tyre (i.e. by some 1200 BCE forerunner of the Phoenicians), a campaign that was joined by the Greek Teucer. It was said that King Belus eventually gave Cyprus to Teucer as a reward for the assistance. from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teucer#Myths During the Trojan War, Teucer was mainly a great archer, who loosed his shafts from behind the giant shield of his half-brother Ajax the Great.......... After Ajax's suicide, Teucer guarded the body to make sure it was buried, insulting Menelaus and Agamemnon when they tried to stop the burial. Finally Odysseus persuaded Agamemnon to let the burial happen.[7] Because of his half-brother's suicide, Teucer stood trial before his father, where he was found guilty of negligence for not bringing his dead half-brother's body or his arms back with him. He was disowned by his father, wasn't allowed back on Salamis Island, and set out to find a new home. His departing words were introduced in the seventh ode of the first book of the Roman poet Horace's Odes, in which he exhorts his companions "nil desperandum", "do not despair", and announces "cras ingens iterabimus aequor", "tomorrow we shall set out upon the vast ocean".[8] This speech has been given a wider applicability in relation to the theme of voyages of discovery, also found in the Ulysses of Tennyson. Teucer eventually joined King Belus of Tyre in his campaign against Cyprus, and when the island was seized, Belus handed it over to him in reward for his assistance. Teucer founded the city of Salamis on Cyprus, which he named after his home state.[9] He further married Eune, daughter of Cinyras, king of Cyprus, and had by her a daughter Asteria.[10] The name Teucer is believed to be related to the name of the West Hittite God Tarku (East Hittite Teshub)—the Indo-European Storm God—a role which explains his relationship to Belus, who is associated with the Carthaginian god Baal Hammon.[11] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 5, 2023 #975 Share Posted June 5, 2023 13 hours ago, Abramelin said: Heh, I know you want to drag the OLB into this, but the OLB doesn't spend a single word about the mayhem occurring in most of Europe, the Middle East and the Med. No, I don’t want to drag it into this thread, just seemed a good phrase to use…in relation to this…. ”As for the matter concerning those enemies: (it was) the people from your country (and) your own ships (who) did this! And (it was) the people from your country (who) committed these transgression(s) ... I am writing to inform you and protect you. Be aware” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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