Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

Good question…I have thought about it, so I’m going with, he didn’t observe the attack. 

But I will also say…from what I’ve observed….

is that Ugarit was building ships for the Hittites, that was its commercial port, it’s only port actually…like Phoenician ship builders, and in fact, their religion was the same, Baal etc, so I see Ugarit refugees as starting a new in Phoenicia. Ugarit is Canaanite.

There was, but I’d have to track the article down, an attack on Cyprus by what may be Ugarit built Hittite ships…and I was wondering if this is what the Vizier was actually talking about…(read slowly) not an attack by Lukka/Ugarit ships but a possible attack by Hittite led ships, built in Ugarit….so Ugarit manned Hittite ships….(the dates are important, I have shown the mention of the Sherdan attacking from the Great Green, which always seems a Sea People context is actually a pre-Battle of Kadesh episode)  attacked Ugarit, (their own people) as well as Cyprus…but not from Lukka…it’s a second solution.

Edited June 13 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

No, the murals depict the warriors wearing a skirt, most of them, some with tassels…I know there is other outfits shown, but the skirts are predominant in the battle ships scenes.

Edit PS…yea, it could be the people shown wearing the animal skin/ more elaborate outfits, could be the land forces.

The Egyptians depicted those Sea Peoples as accurate as they could; animal skins would have been depicted as such.

But none were depicted wearing animal skins.

So: no.

Edited June 13 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Good question…I have thought about it, so I’m going with, he didn’t observe the attack. 

He must have. We're not talking about New York, we're talking about a city that would be like a town/village of modern times.

[The Puzzler]

11 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The Egyptians depicted those Sea Peoples as accurate as they could; animal skins would have been depicted as such.

But none were depicted wearing animal skins.

So: no.

???

You started with the animal skins…whatever…they wore skirts, similar tomMinoans and Mediterranean people…why throw in animal skins, isn’t this confusing enough already…oh were you talking to docyabut, regarding the Pylos pics…righto

 

Edited June 13 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

7 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

He must have. We're not talking about New York, we're talking about a city that would be like a town/village of modern times.

Well, we should look into it, where was his palace in relation to the harbour….what exactly was he thinking, hearing of, seeing?,

Edited June 13 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

???

You started with the animal skins…whatever…

 

I did. Well, Docy did.

But whoever they were, they were not part of the SEA peoples.

Skirts =/= animal hides.

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I did. Well, Docy did.

But whoever they were, they were not part of the SEA peoples.

Skirts =/= animal hides.

OK I had edited post 1075, I did get, eventually lol…you gotta give me time to edit Abe, you know that

Edited June 13 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Well, we should look into it, where was his palace in relation to the harbour….what exactly was he thinking, hearing of, seeing?,

They burnt the place down. All of Ugarit.

That king must have seen those burning the place down.

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

OK I had edited post 1075, I did get, eventually lol…you gotta give me time to edit Abe, you know that

You didn't edit post 1075:

Edited June 13 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

5 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

You didn't edit post 1075:

1081 lol sorry 

[The Puzzler]

13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

They burnt the place down. All of Ugarit.

That king must have seen those burning the place down.

Well look, all is know is what I’m reading…and it does seem Ugarit was burnt to the ground by an uprising of anti Hittites which included the Lukka, probably Hittite factions themselves like Arzawa. The Acchiyawa against the Hittites, whether EITHER King knew this or not, is a question of whether the Vice of Cyprus was telling BEFORE they had invaded the Ugarit land, be aware….in context of…here and now, it hasn’t happened to YOU yet, so it’s not really relevant to if the King knew, by the time those reports came through, it’s over.

Edited June 13 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

17 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

???

You started with the animal skins…whatever…they wore skirts, similar tomMinoans and Mediterranean people…why throw in animal skins, isn’t this confusing enough already…oh were you talking to docyabut, regarding the Pylos pics…righto

 

Docy suggested (? Gods know what she suggested) that those guys wearing animal hides were part of the Sea Peoples.

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

so it’s not really relevant to if the King knew, by the time those reports came through, it’s over.

He fkg reported it, watching it happen!

I need more beer, sigh.

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Docy suggested (? Gods know what she suggested) that those guys wearing animal hides were part of the Sea Peoples.

lol….I thought she meant the warriors with the helmets on in the skirts….but yes, I’d say those are Greeks, which is the assumption doc is making, correct me if I wrong….based on the helmet conversation…the animal prints are interesting though, but which one is doc suggesting is the Sea People…? 

[The Puzzler]

4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

He fkg reported it, watching it happen!

I need more beer, sigh.

These are the only three letters I’ve seen and none suggest what you say. if you have more, show me please.

Eastern states due to attacks. Ammurapi's response to an appeal for assistance from the king of Alashiya highlights the desperate situation that Ugarit and other cities faced:

My father, behold, the enemy's ships came (here); my cities(?) were burned, and they did evil things in my country. Does not my father know that all my troops and chariots(?) are in the Land of Hatti, and all my ships are in the Land of Lukka? ... Thus, the country is abandoned to itself. May my father know it: the seven ships of the enemy that came here inflicted much damage upon us.^[9]

Eshuwara, the senior governor of Cyprus, responded:

As for the matter concerning those enemies: (it was) the people from your country (and) your own ships (who) did this! And (it was) the people from your country (who) committed these transgression(s) ... I am writing to inform you and protect you. Be aware!^[10]

The ruler of Carchemish sent troops to assist Ugarit, but Ugarit had been sacked. A letter sent after Ugarit had been destroyed said:

When your messenger arrived, the army was humiliated and the city was sacked. Our food in the threshing floors was burnt and the vineyards were also destroyed. Our city is sacked. May you know it! May you know it!^[11]

[Abramelin]

@The Puzzler

Why do YOU think all these attacks and wars in Europe, Northern Africa and the Levant and the Middle East took place at around the same time, 1200 BCE?

 

[atalante]

@Abramelin @Puzzler,

 

Many years BEFORE Ugarit was burned, Hittite king Mursili II (ca 1330-1295 BCE) had reduced the Hittite empire's dependence on Ugarit.

 

Carchemish had been granted control over, and direct access to, Mediterranean harbors south of Ugarit (i.e. the coastline between Ugarit and the future-Phoenician cities).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mur%C5%A1ili_II#/media/File:Hittite_Kingdom.png

 

 

 

Here is an explanation of how Mursilli II accomplished this,

quoted from pages 310-311 in https://fada.birzeit.edu/bitstream/20.500.11889/4717/1/Halayqa-%20UF-42%20%20the%20Demise%20of%20Ugarit.pdf

 

 

Another step which escalated the conflict [between Ugarit and Hittites] was the carving out of SiyannuUshnatu from Ugarit. The dual kingdom of Siyannu-Ushnatu, south of Ugarit, was placed under the control of Ugarit by Šuppiluliuma I, but the situation was drastically changed during the time of Muršili II who severed Siynnau-Ushnatu from Ugarit and annexed it to Karkamiš (Astour, 1979, 14): “and Muršili, Great King, transferred Abdi-Anati king of the land of Siyannu, and his sons from the king of Ugarit and gave him as a subject to the king of the land of Karkamiš” (Beckman, 1996, 161).

 

With the annexation of these two districts – SiyannuUshnatu – south of Ugarit to Karkamiš (Astour, 1969, 404; Altman, 2003, 755), Karkamiš retained direct access to the Mediterranean Sea (Neu, 1995, 118) and was no longer in need of Ugaritic harbours. Karkamiš thus expanded to the Mediterranean coast at Ugarit’s expense.39 The reduction of Ugarit’s territorial size to two thirds of its previous expansion40 was probably imposed by the Hittite king as a kind of punishment to Ugarit’s king Niqmepa for not being loyal or acting appropriately during the revolt of the Syrian cities (Klengel, 1992, 136). In the course of the conflict between Ugarit and Siyannu-Ushnatu, the Hittites

 

were engaged in the partition, secession and demarcation of these areas,41 even tracing and setting up the borders. Furthermore, delimitation acts were carried out only by Hittite officials (Astour, 1979, 23).

 

Edited June 13 by atalante

[Antigonos]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

….but yes, I’d say those are Greeks, which is the assumption doc is making, correct me if I wrong….

Yes, she’s trying to claim that the Dorian Greeks were a faction of the Sea Peoples.

 

[docyabut2]

I`m just  thinking those men dress in the animal skins were the sea peoples ,that did the  Destruction of Mycenaean city Pylos ,they joined  the confederation and dress in their armour.

 

https://medium.com/the-bronze-age/intro-to-the-armour-of-the-sea-peoples-part-1-b35144d3f099#:~:text=The Sea Peoples warriors wore,other instances Minoan%2Fcolonial Minoan.

 

Edited June 13 by docyabut2

[Abramelin]

17 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

I`m just  thinking those men dress in the animal skins were the sea peoples ,that did the  Destruction of Mycenaean city Pylos ,they joined  the confederation and dress in their armour.

 

https://medium.com/the-bronze-age/intro-to-the-armour-of-the-sea-peoples-part-1-b35144d3f099#:~:text=The Sea Peoples warriors wore,other instances Minoan%2Fcolonial Minoan.

 

The link you posted doesn't say anything about warriors wearing animal hides.

And the picture you posted? Here it is again, with the text below it copied:

Are you suggesting the Minoans, a peaceful people and traders, were part of the Sea Peoples?

I don't think so.

[Trelane]

The "Sea Peoples" were the remnants of the people who occupied Doggerland. They took to the sea to escape their flooded homeland and spent the following centuries as nomadic seafarers. 

[Piney]

26 minutes ago, Trelane said:

The "Sea Peoples" were the remnants of the people who occupied Doggerland. They took to the sea to escape their flooded homeland and spent the following centuries as nomadic seafarers. 

Who the **** do you think you are? Harte? 

[docyabut2]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The link you posted doesn't say anything about warriors wearing animal hides.

And the picture you posted? Here it is again, with the text below it copied:

Are you suggesting the Minoans, a peaceful people and traders, were part of the Sea Peoples?

I don't think so.

The Minoans could been the Sea Peoples that attack Ugarit.  

[Abramelin]

28 minutes ago, Trelane said:

The "Sea Peoples" were the remnants of the people who occupied Doggerland. They took to the sea to escape their flooded homeland and spent the following centuries as nomadic seafarers. 

Exactly!

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, docyabut2 said:

The Minoans could been the Sea Peoples that attack Ugarit.  

No.