Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Ok. So what had the wars in Europe,  like Tollense, had to do with it?

Or the droughts and plagues and hunger in the Middle East?

The fall of the Hittite empire and the fall of Ugarit were just the falling of several domino stones in a long row of domino stones.

What made it all start?

[The Puzzler]

10 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Ok. So what had the wars in Europe,  like Tollense, had to do with it?

Or the droughts and plagues and hunger in the Middle East?

Good question. 
The Amber route may have been disrupted, or the tin mines we know of at the time, then we don’t know of…. It led to uprisings, wars, attacks, even at that distance…once Ugarit fell for example. the port to accept the Amber in disappeared, leaving other cultures, as the Tollense people without security of payment, money, power etc…breeding more abandonment, migration, uprising and revenge and hatred and even take overs between former alliances. 
That’s why I also think the Phoenicians came from them, same Gods, boat building commerce  people….and once again created the trade that evened out the cultures again.
Im fairly versed in the Fall of Rome…who took it? Alaric the Vandal. Why? Revenge for taking his own land and all of “Gaul”, 500 years earlier. I might be wrong though. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

7 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I'm fairly versed in the Fall of Rome…who took it? Alaric the Vandal. Why? Revenge for taking his own land and all of “Gaul”, 500 years earlier. I might be wrong though. 

Huh? That has nothing to do with the topic.

Please, not another side track.

[The Puzzler]

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The fall of the Hittite empire and the fall of Ugarit were just the falling of several domino stones in a long row of domino stones.

What made it all start?

I think it started after The Battle of Kadesh as several factions split and formed the political unions or rebels, like all wars do.

 

[Abramelin]

9 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Good question. 
The Amber route may have been disrupted, or the tin mines we know of at the time, then we don’t know of…. It led to uprisings, wars, attacks, even at that distance…once Ugarit fell for example. the port to accept the Amber in disappeared, leaving other cultures, as the Tollense people without security of payment, money, power etc…breeding more abandonment, migration, uprising and revenge and hatred and even take overs between former alliances. 

The Amber route.

Hmmm... good suggestion.

But what could have disrupted the Amber route?

Or why?

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Huh? That has nothing to do with the topic.

Please, not another side track.

lol, it was just a comparison. 

[Abramelin]

Just now, The Puzzler said:

I think it started after The Battle of Kadesh as several factions split and formed the political unions or rebels, like all wars do.

 

The battle of Kadesh had - I think - nothing to do with what went on in Europe.

[Abramelin]

Puzz, this is what I think started it all:

Something, yet unknown to us right now, an astronomic event, a spray(?) of earthquakes around the Med, a plague started this thing.

An impact of a series of comets, what?

[The Puzzler]

11 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Puzz, this is what I think started it all:

Something, yet unknown to us right now, an astronomic event, a spray(?) of earthquakes around the Med, a plague started this thing.

An impact of a series of comets, what?

I know…lol, I’m looking…I don’t want to go all Bible but there may possibly be evidences to be found around the Dead Sea…
 

There is some date inconsistency though…

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/exploding-meteor-may-have-wiped-out-ancient-dead-sea-communities

“

Excavations at five large Middle Ghor sites, in what’s now Jordan, indicate that all were continuously occupied for at least 2,500 years until a sudden, collective collapse toward the end of the Bronze Age. Ground surveys have located 120 additional, smaller settlements in the region that the researchers suspect were also exposed to extreme, collapse-inducing heat and wind. An estimated 40,000 to 65,000 people inhabited Middle Ghor when the cosmic calamity hit, Silvia said.

The most comprehensive evidence of destruction caused by a low-altitude meteor explosion comes from the Bronze Age city of Tall el-Hammam, where a team that includes Silvia has been excavating for the last 13 years. Radiocarbon dating indicates that the mud-brick walls of nearly all structures suddenly disappeared around 3,700 years ago, leaving only stone foundations.”

it says near the end of the Bronze Age but then 1700BC ish….so…..not sure.

Edited June 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Antigonos]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Yep. Greeks.

I have visited several Greek sites in the past, and I noticed (using Google Translate) that as soon as a Phoenician (drumroll: Semites) invention or something is mentioned, the Greek members respond with something that would make Adolf smile.

Hey, easy there fella. 

Actually yeah,  I know the types.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Antigonos

[docyabut2]

 Won` t  the word Tarshish come from the word Tartessos ?

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:h. 
 

Edited June 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

45 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Hey, easy there fella. 

Actually yeah,  I know the types.

lol

11 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 Won` t  the word Tarshish come from the word Tartessos ?

Possibly those words connect.

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

The battle of Kadesh had - I think - nothing to do with what went on in Europe.

Maybe not, but trade travels a long way. the dates get me though, the battle at Tollense seems before the Sea People attacks. A predecessor. So, that makes it therefore possible something DID happen in Northern Europe that could have spurred the Sea People attacks on the Med. later.

Edited June 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

It’s hard in linguistics, even lego linguistics to get an ‘a’ from an ‘e’…they are quite stable letters…you can’t translate the word if it’s not translatable….
 

Semitic languages only write consonants, with 3-letter roots; the vowels morph to indicate the parts of speech that are derived from the 3-letter root  So, for example, its possible to transcribe Arabic words with either a or e (interchangably) in some places, when translating into English.

Edited June 15, 2023 by atalante

[docyabut2]

Egyptian name twršꜣ  of the sea   would it  mean Tar ? the letter W would be the letter A?

https://discoveringegypt.com/egyptian-hieroglyphic-writing/egyptian-hieroglyphic-alphabet/

they are both bird signs

Edited June 15, 2023 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

 Maybe they got the bird signs mixed up in the Translation 

[The Puzzler]

10 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Egyptian name twršꜣ  of the sea   would it  mean Tar ? the letter W would be the letter A?

https://discoveringegypt.com/egyptian-hieroglyphic-writing/egyptian-hieroglyphic-alphabet/

they are both bird signs

No. The vowel e would be more than likely between the t and w…to me it would like Tewers…tew can be tyr or tiw…as in the Gods name of Tuesday.

So it’s possible the twrs were actually Tyrians.

The island of Tyre existed and also based across the water on the coast at Ushu. They could be called of the sea, as they accessed the island of Tyre.  Both existed in 1200-1170BC.

What is interesting is we find an attack by Seti on Tyre and Ushu. So…they could be considered to attack Egypt back.

”A wall relief at Karnak lists the cities Sethos I (or Seti I, Ramesses II’s father) conquered, among them Tyre and Ushu. Ushu appears as if it were part of the Tyrian kingdom”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushu

This may answer your question Abe on why would “Phoenicians”, Tyrians attack Egypt…

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I thought this was interesting, it’s possible the Sherdan did not come from Sardinia at all….but from Ionia, and did resettle in Sardinia long after the Sea People.

”

English archaeologist Margaret Guido (1912–1994)^[22] concludes the evidence for the Sherden, Shekelesh, or Teresh coming from the western Mediterranean is flimsy. Guido in 1963 suggests that the Sherden may ultimately derive from Ionia, in the central west coast of Anatolia, in the region of Hermos, east of the island of Chios. It is suggested that Sardis, and the Sardinian plain nearby, may preserve a cultural memory of their name.

Until recently^{[dubious – discuss]} it was assumed that Sardis was only settled in the period after the Anatolian and Aegean Dark Age, but American excavations have shown the place was settled in the Bronze Age and was a site of a significant population.^{[citation needed]} If this is so, the Sherden, pushed by Hittite expansionism of the Late Bronze Age and prompted by the famine that affected this region at the same time, may have been pushed to the Aegean Islands, where shortage of space led them to seek adventure and expansion overseas. It is suggested that from here they may have later migrated to Sardinia. Guido suggests that…(etc etc)

It has been stated that the only weapons and armour similar to those of the Sherden found in Sardinia have been dated to several centuries after the period of the Sea Peoples, which mainly covered the 13th–12th centuries BC.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

[The Puzzler]

Virgil, even though written a long time after, in the Aeneid, refers to Carthage as inhabited by Tyrians.

Its an interesting aspect that Phoenicians/Tyrians did eventually colonise in Libya, and what connections they may have held from older days. Phoenicians refused to attack any of their brethren in general, so Libya may have found a security in them, as well as a good trade ally.

[docyabut2]

9 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

No. The vowel e would be more than likely between the t and w…to me it would like Tewers…tew can be tyr or tiw…as in the Gods name of Tuesday.

So it’s possible the twrs were actually Tyrians.

The island of Tyre existed and also based across the water on the coast at Ushu. They could be called of the sea, as they accessed the island of Tyre.  Both existed in 1200-1170BC.

What is interesting is we find an attack by Seti on Tyre and Ushu. So…they could be considered to attack Egypt back.

”A wall relief at Karnak lists the cities Sethos I (or Seti I, Ramesses II’s father) conquered, among them Tyre and Ushu. Ushu appears as if it were part of the Tyrian kingdom”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushu

This may answer your question Abe on why would “Phoenicians”, Tyrians attack Egypt…

 

 Maybe they got the bird signs mixed up in the Translation 

[The Puzzler]

9 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 Maybe they got the bird signs mixed up in the Translation 

Maybe 

[The Puzzler]

. “The Nine Bows were acting under the leadership of the king of Libya and an associated near-concurrent revolt in Canaaninvolving Gaza, Ashkelon, Yenoam and the Israelites. Exactly which peoples were consistently in the Nine Bows is not clear, but present at the battle were the Libyans, some neighboring Meshwesh, and possibly a separate revolt in the following year involving peoples from the eastern Mediterranean, including the Kheta (or Hittites), or Syrians, and (in the Israel Stele) for the first time in history, the Israelites. In addition to them, the first lines of the Karnak inscription include some sea peoples,^[79]which must have arrived in the Western Delta or from Cyrene by ship:

[Beginning of the victory that his majesty achieved in the

It might have been a “near-concurrent”…..”a seperate revolt”….not just one, all inclusive event.

Edited June 16, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Antigonos]

On 6/15/2023 at 3:22 PM, docyabut2 said:

Egyptian name twršꜣ  of the sea   would it  mean Tar ? the letter W would be the letter A?

https://discoveringegypt.com/egyptian-hieroglyphic-writing/egyptian-hieroglyphic-alphabet/

they are both bird signs

Watch out for those bird people, Docy, they like to show up unannounced  

Edited June 16, 2023 by Antigonos

[docyabut2]

 

Hi all but I got to find out who are the sea peoples? and who has these boats the  double bird-head war ships of the Sea?