Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

15 hours ago, joc said:

HMS Gannet figurehead

 

So, now we have two examples of actual ship figureheads with ducks, coming from the area of Celts/later HMS times Britannia…

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

So, now we have two examples of actual ship figureheads with ducks, coming from the area of Celts/later HMS times Britannia…

It looks like a goose.

Edited to add:

It's probably a .... gannet.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Hmm, I’d kinda challenge that one…at 1200BC. 

What exactly?

That the Celts as a Celtic speaking culture, originated in Iberia?

That the Tartessians were not Celts?

Or that the Tartessians were not related to the Basques, and more to the Berber?

[The Puzzler]

17 hours ago, Abramelin said:

What exactly?

That the Celts as a Celtic speaking culture, originated in Iberia?

That the Tartessians were not Celts?

Or that the Tartessians were not related to the Basques, and more to the Berber?

That Tartessians were not Celts. Not like we see Celtic cultures today, but a Celtic type of 1200BC. 
However there doesn’t seem to be evidence of Tartessos existing at 1200BC.

Edited June 22, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

 

[The Puzzler]

This screenshot from that does seem to show a similar horned helmet..

 

[The Puzzler]

We could also consider the boats depicted is not a photographic copy of the ships the Sea People were actually on.

Has the engraver of the walls at Medinet actually witnessed the event? Are they drawn correct to the actual boats…was the scribe creating the mural to exact specifications. It would have been done sometime after the event.

It looks like all the warriors have this boat shape.

If they are from all over the Mediterranean, this seems a bit odd to me. It could be poetic license rather than exactly what the boats looked like. 

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

That Tartessians were not Celts. Not like we see Celtic cultures today, but a Celtic type of 1200BC. 
However there doesn’t seem to be evidence of Tartessos existing at 1200BC.

The Tartessians didn't speak a Celtic language. What language they dìd speak is anybody's guess. I say: Berber, or a closely related language.

 

"Tartessos" is just the mythological name scientist use for the SW-Iberia  culture. Was there something of a culture overthere around 1200 BCE? I say 'yes'. Did they play any role during the time of the Sea Peoples? I say 'no'.

It got its name, "Tartessos", after the Phoenicians had settled there, and that was, at its earliest, a 100 years àfter 1200 BCE.

[The Puzzler]

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The Tartessians didn't speak a Celtic language. What language they dìd speak is anybody's guess. I say: Berber, or a closely related language.

 

"Tartessos" is just the mythological name scientist use for the SW-Iberia  culture. Was there something of a culture overthere around 1200 BCE? I say 'yes'. Did they play any role during the time of the Sea Peoples? I say 'no'.

It got its name, "Tartessos", after the Phoenicians had settled there, and that was, at its earliest, a 100 years àfter 1200 BCE.

I’m looking for a sea faring culture c.1200BC…Portugal may be a contender.

I do not think Tartessos was a Sea People at the end of the day…it’s like saying Phrygians were in the Trojan War…lthose helmets do seem similar though. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

9 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I’m looking for a sea faring culture c.1200BC…Portugal may be a contender.

Ok, shoot.

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Ok, shoot.

lol, I’m still looking…El Argar is too early and Tartessos is too late. We want one, just right.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

lol, I’m still looking…El Argar is too early and Tartessos is too late. We want one, just right.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age

That's too general: it's like saying 'west Europeans'.

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

That's too general: it's like saying 'west Europeans'.

Tbh I don’t think anyone from Spain was part of the Sea People, they are localised imo. Just docy got me off course with the boats.

But now I don’t think the boats were scribed exactly like they were, just an artistic general image.

[Abramelin]

8 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Tbh I don’t think anyone from Spain was part of the Sea People, they are localised imo. Just docy got me off course with the boats.

But now I don’t think the boats were scribed exactly like they were, just an artistic general image.

The megalithic culture of Atlantic Europe must have been spread in the area by means of boats. That's the idea you get when you watch a map with the oldest megalithic constructions in western Europe.

Are there depictions (petroglyphs) of these boats?

 

[The Puzzler]

Just now, Abramelin said:

The megalithic culture of Atlantic Europe must have been spread in the area by means of boats. That's the idea you get when you watch a map with the oldest megalithic constructions in western Europe.

Are there depictions (petroglyphs) of these boats?

 

Struggling to find any sea faring people of Iberia c1200BC per evidence of boats.

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Struggling to find any sea faring people of Iberia c1200BC per evidence of boats.

Not Iberia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferriby_Boats

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Bronze_Age_Boat

Edited June 22, 2023 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

The megalithic Celtic culture of the Atlantic may have been spread in the times of Doggerland.  This is what Bryan Sykes is literally saying. The culture must have been pre 5500BC, possibly down to 1500BC.

The Ferriby boats, yes. They are not in the time frame of the Sea People though. They are however in the timeframe of the Agaric Culture.

Edited June 22, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I do not doubt sailing was going on beforehand….but I find no hard evidence for for any culture sailing from Iberia c.1200BC.

[Abramelin]

34 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

The megalithic Celtic culture of the Atlantic may have been spread in the times of Doggerland.  This is what Bryan Sykes is literally saying. The culture must have been pre 5500BC, possibly down to 1500BC.

The Ferriby boats, yes. They are not in the time frame of the Sea People though. They are however in the timeframe of the Agaric Culture.

I have posted in the Doggerland thread about boats.

You say "the megalithic Celtic culture of the Atlantic".

The megalithic culture of the Atlantic existed thousands of years before there even were Celts.

And Bryan Sikes may have said what he said, but *I* said part of the Doggerlanders may have migrated - after the flooding of their country - to what's now Brittany, France. They used to create mega-structures made of wood, but after all those structures got flushed down the drain, they started using megaliths.

And I was eventually proven right, as you hopefully will remember.

 ---

The Ferri Boats and the Dover Boat prove there was a ship-building culture along Atlantic Europe before the start of the attacks of the Sea Peoples. You think they had forgotten all about that ship-building technology after a few hundred years? I don't think so: remember the Veneti during Caesar's time.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I have posted in the Doggerland thread about boats.

You say "the megalithic Celtic culture of the Atlantic".

The megalithic culture of the Atlantic existed thousands of years before there even were Celts.

And Bryan Sikes may have said what he said, but *I* said part of the Doggerlanders may have migrated - after the flooding of their country - to what's now Brittany, France. They used to create mega-structures made of wood, but after all those structures got flushed down the drain, they started using megaliths.

And I was eventually proven right, as you hopefully will remember.

 ---

The Ferri Boats and the Dover Boat prove there was a ship-building culture along Atlantic Europe before the start of the attacks of the Sea Peoples. You think they had forgotten all about that ship-building technology after a few hundred years? I don't think so: remember the Veneti during Caesar's time.

 

 

No I don’t think they forgot but here it’s about evidence.

If you find some boats c.1200BC anywhere in Iberia, let me know. 

[Abramelin]

15 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

No I don’t think they forgot but here it’s about evidence.

If you find some boats c.1200BC anywhere in Iberia, let me know. 

And that's why I posted earlier about some Iberian cave painting or mural depicting arriving foreign boats.

Can't find the damn post where I showed it.

[The Puzzler]

5 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

And that's why I posted earlier about some Iberian cave painting or mural depicting arriving foreign boats.

Can't find the damn post where I showed it.

Keep looking, I’m interested.

[Abramelin]

24 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Keep looking, I’m interested.

Got it:

It's about the upper b/w part: that image is part of a much larger image depicting many boats throughout many ages.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Got it:

It's about the upper b/w part: that image is part of a much larger image depicting many boats throughout many ages.

Jimena de la Frontera - Laja Alta Cave

https://www.andalucia.com/jimena/laja-alta

Originally, when discovered, it was thought that these ships were Phoenician and were painted 3,000 - 1,000 years ago. However, a study carried out by the University of Granada on the cave in 2013 revealed, via scientific dating of the paintings that some samples of art were between 4,000 - 6,000 years old. Part of this dating and the topic of the origin of the boats were featured in a documentary The Neolithic Gate of Civilization shown by TVE La 2 in June 2016.

[Abramelin]

17 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Jimena de la Frontera - Laja Alta Cave

https://www.andalucia.com/jimena/laja-alta

Originally, when discovered, it was thought that these ships were Phoenician and were painted 3,000 - 1,000 years ago. However, a study carried out by the University of Granada on the cave in 2013 revealed, via scientific dating of the paintings that some samples of art were between 4,000 - 6,000 years old. Part of this dating and the topic of the origin of the boats were featured in a documentary The Neolithic Gate of Civilization shown by TVE La 2 in June 2016.

When it's too good to be true...

https://newsrnd.com/life/2022-07-05-the-paintings-of-the-laja-alta-shelter-rejuvenate-5-000-years-at-a-stroke.SyNnFqWjq.html