Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

10 hours ago, Abramelin said:

When it's too good to be true...

https://newsrnd.com/life/2022-07-05-the-paintings-of-the-laja-alta-shelter-rejuvenate-5-000-years-at-a-stroke.SyNnFqWjq.html

AD….too true.

[The Puzzler]

This is one of the biggest hurdles here…what sea faring people were in Iberia c.1200. BC.

We know there were certainly cultures there in the Bronze Age, but none seem to fit within this time with evidence for travelling the Mediterranean 1200BC. 
 

Pharoah knew the peoples names, aligned with Libya and the whole coast from Amarru to Egypt….some were circumcised, like Syria-Phoenicians, Ethiopians and Egyptians. This is a big telling point in the Ekwesh not being Achaeans (Greeks of any kind) Mycenae, Taniju or similar, was the name for Greeks, all Greek cities of note are mentioned in previous texts.

The Sea People imo are those around Libya, Cyrene and along the Canaanite coastline as mentioned above. People who suffered in the (Political) Battle of Kadesh.

The mention of the Lukka is the only real definitive people and that’s even iffy.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:32 AM, Abramelin said:

When it's too good to be true...

https://newsrnd.com/life/2022-07-05-the-paintings-of-the-laja-alta-shelter-rejuvenate-5-000-years-at-a-stroke.SyNnFqWjq.html

Quote from the link:

But now, a new line of research by archaeologist Ana María Gomar Barea maintains that, in reality, the drawings correspond to a pictorial representation of ships from medieval times, between the 12th and 14th centuries.

She claims that the analyzed idol has nothing to do with the confrontation.

In other words, the battle is a representation of the Middle Ages, but it was painted over prehistoric drawings.

Hence the error.

 

And I found Barea's paper:

LA ESCENA NAVAL DEL ABRIGO DE LAJA ALTA (JIMENA DE LA FRONTERA, CÁDIZ). UNA NUEVA PROPUESTA CRONOCULTURAL

The Naval Scene of Laja Alta Shelter-Cave (Jimena de la Frontera, Cádiz). A New Chronocultural Proposal

Ana María Gomar Barea

Pdf: link

 

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Quote from the link:

But now, a new line of research by archaeologist Ana María Gomar Barea maintains that, in reality, the drawings correspond to a pictorial representation of ships from medieval times, between the 12th and 14th centuries.

She claims that the analyzed idol has nothing to do with the confrontation.

In other words, the battle is a representation of the Middle Ages, but it was painted over prehistoric drawings.

Hence the error.

 

And I found Barea's paper:

LA ESCENA NAVAL DEL ABRIGO DE LAJA ALTA (JIMENA DE LA FRONTERA, CÁDIZ). UNA NUEVA PROPUESTA CRONOCULTURAL

The Naval Scene of Laja Alta Shelter-Cave (Jimena de la Frontera, Cádiz). A New Chronocultural Proposal

Ana María Gomar Barea

Pdf: link

 

OK, I’ll,follow it through…I saw that too, there was something in the article, that made me think no, or I would have pounced on it. 

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Quote from the link:

But now, a new line of research by archaeologist Ana María Gomar Barea maintains that, in reality, the drawings correspond to a pictorial representation of ships from medieval times, between the 12th and 14th centuries.

She claims that the analyzed idol has nothing to do with the confrontation.

In other words, the battle is a representation of the Middle Ages, but it was painted over prehistoric drawings.

Hence the error.

 

And I found Barea's paper:

LA ESCENA NAVAL DEL ABRIGO DE LAJA ALTA (JIMENA DE LA FRONTERA, CÁDIZ). UNA NUEVA PROPUESTA CRONOCULTURAL

The Naval Scene of Laja Alta Shelter-Cave (Jimena de la Frontera, Cádiz). A New Chronocultural Proposal

Ana María Gomar Barea

Pdf: link

 

Either way, great find, concentrating on this area...”The Naval Scene of Laja Alta Shelter-Cave”

Edited June 24, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Hasta manana amigo…but some translation into English said…

” navales rupestres; grafito histórico; tecnología naval.
Abstract: We present a review of the boat-shaped motifs of the Laja Alta shelter-cave, in Jimena de la Frontera, Cádiz…

Eek….1000BC-700BC, no 1200BC…I think that was what it is that me made go, no.

“HISTORY

You can see a variety of images on the walls of Laja Alta cave (protected by large black metal bars), some of which are believed to depict human, animal and godlike figures, while others show scenes of boats. The issue of providing an accurate date for the ship paintings is challenging for researchers: the most accepted range for these used to be the prehistoric period between 1000 and 700 BC, attributed to the arrival of the Phoenicians to the Strait of Gibraltar during that time.”

https://www.andalucia.com/jimena/laja-alta

And even if 4000-6000, it doesn’t work for 1200BC…are you going for Phoenician influenced ships of 1000-700BC or ships from 4000-6000 years ago?

”Originally, when discovered, it was thought that these ships were Phoenician and were painted 3,000 - 1,000 years ago. However, a study carried out by the University of Granada on the cave in 2013 revealed, via scientific dating of the paintings that some samples of art were between 4,000 - 6,000 years old. Part of this dating and the topic of the origin of the boats were featured in a documentary The Neolithic Gate of Civilization shown by TVE La 2 in June 2016.”

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Hasta manana amigo…but some translation into English said…

” navales rupestres; grafito histórico; tecnología naval.
Abstract: We present a review of the boat-shaped motifs of the Laja Alta shelter-cave, in Jimena de la Frontera, Cádiz…

Eek….1000BC-700BC, no 1200BC…I think that was what it is that me made go, no.

“HISTORY

You can see a variety of images on the walls of Laja Alta cave (protected by large black metal bars), some of which are believed to depict human, animal and godlike figures, while others show scenes of boats. The issue of providing an accurate date for the ship paintings is challenging for researchers: the most accepted range for these used to be the prehistoric period between 1000 and 700 BC, attributed to the arrival of the Phoenicians to the Strait of Gibraltar during that time.”

https://www.andalucia.com/jimena/laja-alta

And even if 4000-6000, it doesn’t work for 1200BC…are you going for Phoenician influenced ships of 1000-700BC or ships from 4000-6000 years ago?

”Originally, when discovered, it was thought that these ships were Phoenician and were painted 3,000 - 1,000 years ago. However, a study carried out by the University of Granada on the cave in 2013 revealed, via scientific dating of the paintings that some samples of art were between 4,000 - 6,000 years old. Part of this dating and the topic of the origin of the boats were featured in a documentary The Neolithic Gate of Civilization shown by TVE La 2 in June 2016.”

 

According to Barea the dating of those cave paintings of boats dated not to prehistoric times, but to medieval times. Check her paper of which I posted the link to.

But ìf those very ancient dates prove to be right after all, it would prove that who we now call Tartessians were capable of building seaworthy boats long before the Phoenicians arrived.

The Atlantic Megalithic Culture spread across Atlantic Europe by sea, remember? So it should not surprize us these 'Tartessians' had a maritime history having several of the oldest megalithic structures of western Europe.

But... all hope is not lost.

Check the next paper:

https://www.academia.edu/9998451/Nautical_Iconography_from_the_Iberian_Peninsula_in_Prehistory

You will notice the author thinks the before mentioned cave paintings are really ancient. I believe Barea, and that these Jimena de la Frontera - Laja Alta Cave paintings are actually from medieval times.

But for the rest of the paper... well, read it.

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

And I found something else that looks interesting.

Philistines and Phoenicians

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekron_Royal_Dedicatory_Inscription

Quote:

It is the first connected body of text to be identified as "Philistine",[6] on the basis of Ekron's identification as a Philistine city in the Bible (see Joshua 13:3 and 1 Samuel 6:17). However, it is written in a Canaanite dialect similar to Phoenician and Old Byblian, such that its discoverers referred to it as "something of an enigma".[7][8]

 

• [7] citation

 Gitin, Dothan, and Naveh, 1997, p. 15, quote: "If so, one may ask why should a seventh century BCE inscription be written at Ekron in a language close to Phoenician and reminiscent of Old Byblian. Phoenician was the prestige language in the tenth and ninth century BCE. To find an inscription, however, in seventh century BCE Philistia, where a script from the Hebrew tradition was used, is something of an enigma."

It may date from several centuries after 1200 BCE, but it still makes me wonder why the Philistines would write in a Phoenician language, while the Phoenician settlements didn't reach that far south of the Levantine coast of the Med.

[cormac mac airt]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And I found something else that looks interesting.

Philistines and Phoenicians

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekron_Royal_Dedicatory_Inscription

Quote:

It is the first connected body of text to be identified as "Philistine",[6] on the basis of Ekron's identification as a Philistine city in the Bible (see Joshua 13:3 and 1 Samuel 6:17). However, it is written in a Canaanite dialect similar to Phoenician and Old Byblian, such that its discoverers referred to it as "something of an enigma".[7][8]

 

• [7] citation

 Gitin, Dothan, and Naveh, 1997, p. 15, quote: "If so, one may ask why should a seventh century BCE inscription be written at Ekron in a language close to Phoenician and reminiscent of Old Byblian. Phoenician was the prestige language in the tenth and ninth century BCE. To find an inscription, however, in seventh century BCE Philistia, where a script from the Hebrew tradition was used, is something of an enigma."

It may date from several centuries after 1200 BCE, but it still makes me wonder why the Philistines would write in a Phoenician language, while the Phoenician settlements didn't reach that far south of the Levantine coast of the Med.

“Similar”, not “same”. And it specifically states it’s a Canaanite dialect, of which Phoenician is just one of several offshoots. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

6 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

“Similar”, not “same”. And it specifically states it’s a Canaanite dialect, of which Phoenician is just one of several offshoots. 
 

cormac

I know.

And why would it be similar to Phoenician?

[cormac mac airt]

19 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I know.

And why would it be similar to Phoenician?

That’s not apparent by your previous wording. 
 

A bit obvious to me that after the Philistines migrated to the Levant they learned to speak and write a Canaanite dialect, which is related to BUT NOT the same as Phoenician. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

That’s not apparent by your previous wording. 
 

A bit obvious to me that after the Philistines migrated to the Levant they learned to speak and write a Canaanite dialect, which is related to BUT NOT the same as Phoenician. 
 

cormac

Apparently it was similar enough to Phoenician or the dialect of Byblos after centuries to call it an enigma.

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

Apparently it was similar enough to Phoenician or the dialect of Byblos after centuries to call it an enigma.

The only “enigma” IMO is how long would it have taken Philistines, who were from the Aegean or Greek Mainland in origin, to learn to speak and write a Canaanite dialect AFTER migrating to the Levant. It’s actually quite obvious they would do so. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

The only “enigma” IMO is how long would it have taken Philistines, who were from the Aegean or Greek Mainland in origin, to learn to speak and write a Canaanite dialect AFTER migrating to the Levant. It’s actually quite obvious they would do so. 
 

cormac

But why would their dialect become close to Phoenician (and probably also Assyrian/Akkadian if you read the references)? Did they have close relations?

Btw., I'm not suggesting the Philistines were Phoenicians.

[The Puzzler]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

But why would their dialect become close to Phoenician (and probably also Assyrian/Akkadian if you read the references)? Did they have close relations?

Btw., I'm not suggesting the Philistines were Phoenicians.

Trade relations…seems as good as anything to use Phoenician influenced text.

Edited June 25, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

26 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Trade relations…seems as good as anything to use Phoenician influenced text.

It's not just Phoenician influence because of trade. They spoke a semitic language with a dialect that resembled Phoenician.

[The Puzzler]

19 hours ago, Abramelin said:

According to Barea the dating of those cave paintings of boats dated not to prehistoric times, but to medieval times. Check her paper of which I posted the link to.

But ìf those very ancient dates prove to be right after all, it would prove that who we now call Tartessians were capable of building seaworthy boats long before the Phoenicians arrived.

The Atlantic Megalithic Culture spread across Atlantic Europe by sea, remember? So it should not surprize us these 'Tartessians' had a maritime history having several of the oldest megalithic structures of western Europe.

But... all hope is not lost.

Check the next paper:

https://www.academia.edu/9998451/Nautical_Iconography_from_the_Iberian_Peninsula_in_Prehistory

You will notice the author thinks the before mentioned cave paintings are really ancient. I believe Barea, and that these Jimena de la Frontera - Laja Alta Cave paintings are actually from medieval times.

But for the rest of the paper... well, read it.

 

OK, yes, it does show at the older age dating, where we should be looking, all very interesting, nice job

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

It's not just Phoenician influence because of trade. They spoke a semitic language with a dialect that resembled Phoenician.

Who is “they”…Philistines..? sorry, so many posts, I’ve been working a lot but trying to keep up.

I still say the dialect change is because of using a Phoenician alphabet. The SW Iberian language, maybe Celtic strain, sort of morphed into a Phoenician style because the a phoenicians were dominant there.

Probably the same with the Phillistines. You write in English to communicate with us, we don’t write Dutch to communicate with you. language is nothing, and easily changed…mostly people speak and write the lingua franca, no matter where you come from.

Edited June 25, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Just now, The Puzzler said:

Who is “they”…Philistines

Yes.

[The Puzzler]

On the boats, just of interest is one…not from the South of Spain but more the North on the Mediterranean…

Looking similar to a Cretan style boat.

https://digventures.com/2015/10/this-petroglyph-captures-the-moment-when-atlantic-and-mediterranean-cultures-met/
 

Maybe we are looking in the wrong place for the Sea People in Spain,  if any came from Spain, in the first place.

[Abramelin]

39 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Maybe we are looking in the wrong place for the Sea People in Spain,  if any came from Spain, in the first place.

Indeed, if any came from Spain in the first place...

 

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Probably the same with the Phillistines. You write in English to communicate with us, we don’t write Dutch to communicate with you. language is nothing, and easily changed…mostly people speak and write the lingua franca, no matter where you come from.

Well, with what dialect do I write my posts?

[Abramelin]

4 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

On the boats, just of interest is one…not from the South of Spain but more the North on the Mediterranean…

Looking similar to a Cretan style boat.

https://digventures.com/2015/10/this-petroglyph-captures-the-moment-when-atlantic-and-mediterranean-cultures-met/
 

Maybe we are looking in the wrong place for the Sea People in Spain,  if any came from Spain, in the first place.

Btw., this is not an Iberian boat, but one visiting from the eastern Med. Well, that's the conclusion of the author.

[docyabut2]

 

https://jeffreyunsworth.wixsite.com/teleiosbibleblogs/189

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by docyabut2

[Antigonos]

14 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 

https://jeffreyunsworth.wixsite.com/teleiosbibleblogs/189

 

 

What is the relevance of this image?