Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[docyabut2]

14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Nope. The Bible suggests that the Biblical patriarchs originated from Sumer/Mesopotamia which is NOWHERE NEAR Thera or the Aegean. 

cormac

https://www.livescience.com/55429-philistines.html

 

The Philistines were a group of people who arrived in the Levant (an area that includes modern-day Israel, Gaza,

 

https://www.livescience.com/55429-philistines.html

Edited September 28, 2022 by docyabut2

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, docyabut2 said:

https://www.livescience.com/55429-philistines.html

You can misapply links all you want but the Bible says Abraham came from UR OF THE CHALDEES. That city is in southern Iraq. 

cormac

[docyabut2]

4 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

You can misapply links all you want  the Bible says Abraham came from UR OF THE CHALDEES. That city is in southern Iraq. 

cormac

I know the bible said  Abraham came from UR OF THE CHALDEES. That city is in southern Iraq.

but  i do know who were the first ones in Israel`s  Canaan

[cormac mac airt]

10 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I know the bible said  Abraham came from UR OF THE CHALDEES. That city is in southern Iraq.

but  i do know who were the first ones in Israel`s  Canaan

The Israelites in Canaan have nothing, relation related, to do with the Philistines. 

cormac 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

13 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I know the bible said  Abraham came from UR OF THE CHALDEES. That city is in southern Iraq.

but  i do know who were the first ones in Israel`s  Canaan

Yes…. The canaanites were the first in Canaan, then God told the Hebrew to indulge in a bit of genocide.

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Yes…. The canaanites were the first in Canaan, then God told the Hebrew to indulge in a bit of genocide.

The downside of the Biblical argument is that the Israelites AND the Phoenicians were both offshoot groups of indigenous Canaanites, the former having NEVER been Sumerian/Mesopotamian in origin to begin with. 

cormac

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

The downside of the Biblical argument is that the Israelites AND the Phoenicians were both offshoot groups of indigenous Canaanites, the former having NEVER been Sumerian/Mesopotamian in origin to begin with. 

cormac

And I’d love to see historical evidence that there were ever Jews in Egypt as a slave class rather than roving traders.

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

And I’d love to see historical evidence that there were ever Jews in Egypt as a slave class rather than roving traders.

I think we'll both be waiting for Hell to freeze over first before that happens. 

cormac

[Abramelin]

21 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

For the Veneti to have been in their respective locations by the 13th century BC they likely left the Black Sea region at least 100+ years before that meaning at a minimum the 14th century BC which PRECEDED the Phoenician

They could have travelled over land or by using rivers to arrive in Brittany, the north of the Adriatic and the Vistula within a year.

I think they traded with the people in these locations.

They could have managed reaching these locations within a couple of years. Apparently they were wellknown and respected, and were allowed to pass those tribes who went south to cross the Med.

Btw., according to this Herbert I posted the paper of, they didn't mix during their travels to their final destinations.

[Abramelin]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:10 AM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

And I’d love to see historical evidence that there were ever Jews in Egypt as a slave class rather than roving traders.

You won't see that because there were no "Jews" back then.

However, there are AE depictions of 'Asiatic', or Canaanite/Semitic slaves forming and baking bricks.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

On 9/28/2022 at 11:52 PM, docyabut2 said:

I know the bible said  Abraham came from UR OF THE CHALDEES. That city is in southern Iraq.

but  i do know who were the first ones in Israel`s  Canaan

Docy, please read this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur_of_the_Chaldees

And you'll know that the location of  "Ur of the Chaldees" is based on whatever is made of the original name of these 'Chaldees'.

"Ur" may have been Urfa in Anatolia.

Just saying.

[cormac mac airt]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

You won't see that because there were no "Jews" back then.

However, there are AE depictions of 'Asiatic', or Canaanite/Semitic slaves forming and baking bricks.

You’re right but that also means the Asiatics above can’t, with any specificity, be equated with either Israel, first mention being the Merneptah Stele c. 1208 BC NOR Hebrews, first mention being the Moabite stone altar inscription, late 9th-early 8Th century BC both of which are in reference to specific peoples. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

8 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

You’re right but that also means the Asiatics above can’t, with any specificity, be equated with either Israel, first mention being the Merneptah Stele c. 1208 BC NOR Hebrews, first mention being the Moabite stone altar inscription, late 9th-early 8Th century BC both of which are in reference to specific peoples. 
 

cormac

I never equated them with Isrealites nor Hebrews, but they most certainly were Canaanites, or 'Asiatics'.

And that's what Hebrews were.

[cormac mac airt]

13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I never equated them with Isrealites nor Hebrews, but they most certainly were Canaanites, or 'Asiatics'.

And that's what Hebrews were.

Actually “Asiatics” doesn’t necessarily mean Canaanites it can also be used for other Semitic groups. Some names were more generic than others. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Actually “Asiatics” doesn’t necessarily mean Canaanites it can also be used for other Semitic groups. Some names were more generic than others. 
 

cormac

Ok. So what other people were called 'Asiatics' by the AE?

The AE mentioned the "Retjenu" or "Retenu", which means "Canaanites".

[cormac mac airt]

15 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Ok. So what other people were called 'Asiatics' by the AE?

The AE mentioned the "Retjenu" or "Retenu", which means "Canaanites".

ANY non-Egyptian Near Eastern peoples can and sometimes were referred to as Asiatics. Put another way, ANY Semitic peoples not just Canaanites. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

6 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

ANY non-Egyptian Near Eastern peoples can and sometimes were referred to as Asiatics. Put another way, ANY Semitic peoples not just Canaanites. 
 

cormac

Please give an example of these other Asiatics mentioned in AE discriptions of people they met or conquered.

[cormac mac airt]

8 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Please give an example of these other Asiatics mentioned in AE discriptions of people they met or conquered.

The Amorites and the Hyksos (AE heku-khasut) are the two most distinctive and common examples during the Middle Kingdom of Egypt. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The Amorites and the Hyksos (AE heku-khasut) are the two most distinctive and common examples during the Middle Kingdom of Egypt. 
 

cormac

And I knew you would come up with these tribes.

The Hyksos were Canaanites.

The Amorites were not. But very probably related to the Canaanites.

[cormac mac airt]

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

And I knew you would come up with these tribes.

The Hyksos were Canaanites.

The Amorites were not. But very probably related to the Canaanites.

I did that on purpose to show that “Asiatics” was not limited to Canaanites. As to the Amorites, a predominantly Syrian peoples, ALL Semites are related but their individual names shouldn’t be conflated as being one and the same peoples. They’re not. 
 

cormac

[Poncho_Peanatus]

Dan Davies explain how raiders and mercenaries would fit perfectly as sea people

 

[Thanos5150]

On 11/5/2022 at 9:34 AM, Abramelin said:

You won't see that because there were no "Jews" back then.

However, there are AE depictions of 'Asiatic', or Canaanite/Semitic slaves forming and baking bricks.

As discussed several times before, from at least the beginnings of the OK, the pyramid age, Asiatics from the Levant were captured by the boatload. Along with Libyans and Nubians. Pictured below (Sahure 5th Dynasty) are all three groups of prisoners: 

T

There seems little doubt the point of capturing up to 20,000 foreigners at any given time was slave labor.  

Edited November 13, 2022 by Thanos5150

[Abramelin]

On 9/28/2022 at 8:13 PM, Abramelin said:

And as an extra: Phoenician inscriptions have been found as far north as the Caucasus: the Maykop culture. I have no link to prove it, but I remember I read about it in a book, ages ago. You can bet I will try to find a link to prove it.

 

I found the book a few houres ago, by accident (I moved an old couch, and there it was).

And ... forget it.

It was a book my mother gave me for my birthday a couple of weeks after my father had died ( - we both had the same birthday - ) in 1977.

She had bought it for me, months before, because she knew I loved ancient history and reading.

The book's title: "De grootste mysteries aller tijden" (The greatest mysteries of all times), and the publisher was Reader's Digest.

To make a long story short: the article said Russian scientists had found an inscription in Phoenician script, but in an ancient Abchazian language. It was supposedly about the trip of the Argonauts.

The accompanying photo of the script looked nothing like the Phoenician script....at all. Much more like Sumerian pictographs.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Abramelin

[Windowpane]

12 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I found the book a few houres ago, by accident (I moved an old couch, and there it was).

And ... forget it.

It was a book my mother gave me for my birthday a couple of weeks after my father had died ( - we both had the same birthday - ) in 1977.

She had bought it for me, months before, because she knew I loved ancient history and reading.

The book's title: "De grootste mysteries aller tijden" (The greatest mysteries of all times), and the publisher was Reader's Digest.

To make a long story short: the article said Russian scientists had found an inscription in Phoenician script, but in an ancient Abchazian language. It was supposedly about the trip of the Argonauts.

The accompanying photo of the script looked nothing like the Phoenician script....at all. Much more like Sumerian pictographs.

 

Was this a photo of the Maykop plate?

 

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, Windowpane said:

 

Was this a photo of the Maykop plate?

 

Yep, that's the one!