Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

22 hours ago, Abramelin said:

An interesting respons:

https://peripluscd.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/chronicle-4-phoenicias-stroke-of-fortune

This is why they survived unscathed…and why they went to on to become the most powerful unit on Earth with their mercantile skills,  no one takes out the economy until it gets really bad. They never dulled, the Roman Empire had an old hate on them because THEY wanted to control the economy.

Thats the real truth why the Phoenician cities survived…$$ “favoured cities” of course they were.

”By the mid-14th century BC, the Phoenician city-states were considered "favored cities" to the Egyptians. Tyre, Sidon, Beirut, and Byblos were regarded as the most important. The Phoenicians had considerable autonomy, and their cities were reasonably well developed and prosperous. Byblos was the leading city; it was a center for bronze-making and the primary terminus of precious goods such as tin and lapis lazuli from as far east as Afghanistan. Sidon and Tyre also commanded interest among Egyptian officials, beginning a pattern of rivalry that would span the next millennium.Ed….

Sometime between 1200 and 1150 BC, the Late Bronze Age collapse severely weakened or destroyed most civilizations in the region, including the Egyptians and Hittites. The Phoenicians appear to have weathered the crisis relatively well, emerging as a distinct and organized civilization in 1230 BC. The period is sometimes described as a "Phoenician renaissance."^[43] They filled the power vacuum caused by the Late Bronze Age collapse by becoming the sole mercantile and maritime power in the region, a status they would maintain for the next several centuries”

[The Puzzler]

How to shut up a thread…Puzzler 101…come up with the correct answer….;)

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

How to shut up a thread…Puzzler 101…come up with the correct answer….;)

Maybe you should reread the entire thread.

[Abramelin]

On 3/27/2023 at 4:05 PM, The Puzzler said:

The Phoenicians appear to have weathered the crisis relatively well

And thàt was the question: why did they?

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Maybe you should reread the entire thread.

Edited March 30 by The Puzzler
Smart ass answer deleted.

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

And thàt was the question: why did they?

I just told you. The mercantile factor. 

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

I just told you. The mercantile factor. 

The Phoenician cities in the Levant had lots to offer to the invading Sea Peoples.

They destroyed the Hittites, and went on their way to Egypt, through Canaan, where the rich cities of the Phoenicians were located.

But..."The Phoenicians appear to have weathered the crisis relatively well".

What do you mean with your 'mercantile factor'?

Did they pay the invading Sea Peoples to pass them?

[The Puzzler]

11 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The Phoenician cities in the Levant had lots to offer to the invading Sea Peoples.

They destroyed the Hittites, and went on their way to Egypt, through Canaan, where the rich cities of the Phoenicians were located.

But..."The Phoenicians appear to have weathered the crisis relatively well".

What do you mean with your 'mercantile factor'?

Did they pay the invading Sea Peoples to pass them?

I don’t see it like that, it’s like they may have actually financed the attacks tbh.

Mercantile factor, it means they didn’t attack the money lenders. It was PHoenician custom to not attack brothers. 
Something tells me, the Libyan contingent at least, since we struggle to really know who the others were, were brothers to the Phoenicians.

“Considerable autonomy”. The Sea People knew this. 

”By the mid-14th century BC, the Phoenician city-states were considered "favored cities" to the Egyptians. Tyre, Sidon, Beirut, and Byblos were regarded as the most important. The Phoenicians had considerable autonomy, and their cities were reasonably well developed and prosperous.”

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

 

I don’t see it like that, it’s like they may have actually financed the attacks tbh.

Mercantile factor, it means they didn’t attack the money lenders

That was the idea.

But after the attacks these Phoenicians happily continued trading with the Egyptians. I wonder what would have happened if the Egyptians discovered the Phoenicians had financed the attacks...

[The Puzzler]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

That was the idea.

But after the attacks these Phoenicians happily continued trading with the Egyptians. I wonder what would have happened if the Egyptians discovered the Phoenicians had financed the attacks...

They prob didn’t finance it as such, that was going out on a limb a bit. 

Edited March 31 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

“Rather than disproving the current assertion, this remarkable treatment of Arwad adds to the view that the Phoenicians were accorded a special status by the invading peoples.

Based upon the sum of this evidence, we can only conclude that observations of the Phoenician cites being undamaged during this time, and having been accorded a special status by the invaders, have been verified. That there was a relationship or partnership of some nature between the Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians is clearly in evidence.”

https://phoenician.org/sea_peoples/

[jmccr8]

26 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

“Rather than disproving the current assertion, this remarkable treatment of Arwad adds to the view that the Phoenicians were accorded a special status by the invading peoples.

Based upon the sum of this evidence, we can only conclude that observations of the Phoenician cites being undamaged during this time, and having been accorded a special status by the invaders, have been verified. That there was a relationship or partnership of some nature between the Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians is clearly in evidence.”

https://phoenician.org/sea_peoples/

Hi Puzzler

If the Sea People were taking goods from places they were raiding the Phoenicians may have been their fence that they went to to sell stolen goods.

[The Puzzler]

13 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Puzzler

If the Sea People were taking goods from places they were raiding the Phoenicians may have been their fence that they went to to sell stolen goods.

Yes, I can see that happening from the article. A fence. 

[The Puzzler]

On 4/1/2023 at 2:41 AM, The Puzzler said:

“Rather than disproving the current assertion, this remarkable treatment of Arwad adds to the view that the Phoenicians were accorded a special status by the invading peoples.

Based upon the sum of this evidence, we can only conclude that observations of the Phoenician cites being undamaged during this time, and having been accorded a special status by the invaders, have been verified. That there was a relationship or partnership of some nature between the Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians is clearly in evidence.”

https://phoenician.org/sea_peoples/

The whole article is worth reading for the answers here for sure.

”A symbiotic relationship seems to have developed between those who were motivated to find good land for their families and those who simply wanted booty and adventure. The chaos created by each benefited the other, and the results suggest they came to share mutual enemies and mutual allies.

“We have seen how pressures were increasing in and around Anatolia. But why was this particular moment chosen for exploding into action? Before answering that question, let us examine the intense pressures which were mounting upon the Phoenicians” article

The (Phoenician) city of Arwad, of which the Sea People gave it back to the Phoenicians, after taking it (back) from The Hittites… mentioned in the last post had been taken by Hittites prior. Looking into the depths like this, we find the answers. 

Edited April 2 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

On 3/31/2023 at 8:40 PM, Abramelin said:

That was the idea.

But after the attacks these Phoenicians happily continued trading with the Egyptians. I wonder what would have happened if the Egyptians discovered the Phoenicians had financed the attacks...

I’m fairly sure they knew something fishy was going on…Thebes, not in the delta, is where Phoenicians were in Egypt, same as Greece….

The term “Egyptians” irks me, there were many different areas of Egypt, not just one overall “Egyptian element”.

I think it’s Ramesses but I’d have to check, took all the circumcised penises of the enemy…because he knew, that they were the infidels, either Egyptian, Ethiopian or Syria-Phoenician, who were in Thebes, the real enemy…he knew what was going on here, don’t you worry bout that. By the time of the rise of Phoenicia, c. 1200BC, Egyptian Pharoahs were on the slide down. 

[Abramelin]

37 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

think it’s Ramesses but I’d have to check, took all the circumcised penises of the enemy…

I think it's Ramesses III :

https://www.thenotsoinnocentsabroad.com/blog/medinet-habu-a-reflection-of-ramesses-iiis-military-might

[The Puzzler]

Yes, so, why would he do that? Except to Infiltrate the traitors out….oddly enough, we do find Ethiopians on the “Egyptian” throne not long after the Sea People…another people said to be affiliated with the area of Phoenicia. See Andromeda and the Aethiopia Kingdom of Joffa.

Edited April 3 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

On 3/30/2023 at 1:36 PM, Abramelin said:

The Phoenician cities in the Levant had lots to offer to the invading Sea Peoples.

They destroyed the Hittites, and went on their way to Egypt, through Canaan, where the rich cities of the Phoenicians were located.

But..."The Phoenicians appear to have weathered the crisis relatively well".

What do you [Puzzler] mean with your 'mercantile factor'?

Did they pay the invading Sea Peoples to pass them?

Abe,
The Sea Peoples had no grudge against the Phoenicians.  But the whole Aegean region DID have a huge grudge against the Hittites -- because the Hittites had cut off the Aegean region from receiving shipments of copper from Cyprus.  The Hittites seized all of Cyprus's copper exports, to defend the Hittite empire against the militant Assyrian empire.  I explained a big part of this above (in this topic) at:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/360724-sea-peoples-and-the-phoenicians-a-critical-turning-point-in-history/page/7/#comment-7531243

AFTER the Sea Peoples invasions, the Greeks gained control of Cyprus.  But the Greeks and Aegeans had lacked animosity toward Phoenicians.  The Mycenaean empire needed to migrate at that time because the capital city, Mycenae, had received its water from springs, not a major river.  And a 200 or 300 year drought made the Greek springs stop flowing.  Simultaneous drought on Cypress greatly reduced the number of trees that Cypress could burn to smelt copper.  Therefore even after the Greeks liberated Cypress from the Hittites, a shortage of Cyprus's smelted copper impoverished the eastern Mediterranean region.   

Edited April 5 by atalante

[Abramelin]

13 hours ago, atalante said:

Abe,
The Sea Peoples had no grudge against the Phoenicians.  But the whole Aegean region DID have a huge grudge against the Hittites -- because the Hittites had cut off the Aegean region from receiving shipments of copper from Cyprus.  The Hittites seized all of Cyprus's copper exports, to defend the Hittite empire against the militant Assyrian empire.  I explained a big part of this above (in this topic) at:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/360724-sea-peoples-and-the-phoenicians-a-critical-turning-point-in-history/page/7/#comment-7531243

AFTER the Sea Peoples invasions, the Greeks gained control of Cyprus.  But the Greeks and Aegeans had lacked animosity toward Phoenicians.  The Mycenaean empire needed to migrate at that time because the capital city, Mycenae, had received its water from springs, not a major river.  And a 200 or 300 year drought made the Greek springs stop flowing.  Simultaneous drought on Cypress greatly reduced the number of trees that Cypress could burn to smelt copper.  Therefore even after the Greeks liberated Cypress from the Hittites, a shortage of Cyprus's smelted copper impoverished the eastern Mediterranean region.   

Atalante, what was the grudge of the Sea Peoples against Egypt, according to you?

[docyabut2]

 Could the  Sea Peoples be some of the Shepherd Kings that attacked Egypt ?

 

 https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/S/shepherd-kings.html

 

 

Edited April 6 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

Who are whence were The Shepherds is not very definitely known. Rawlinson calls them"a collection of all the nomadic hoardes of Syria and Arabia"an overwhelming floor of a quarter of a million of men who swooped down upon, conquered and occupied the delta, the Fayoum, and Lower Nile valley. The upper Nile paid tribute to them but was never conquered them. Their reign was 200 @ 500 years- They were driven out by Aahmes.

 

 

[Abramelin]

10 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Who are whence were The Shepherds is not very definitely known. Rawlinson calls them"a collection of all the nomadic hoardes of Syria and Arabia"an overwhelming floor of a quarter of a million of men who swooped down upon, conquered and occupied the delta, the Fayoum, and Lower Nile valley. The upper Nile paid tribute to them but was never conquered them. Their reign was 200 @ 500 years- They were driven out by Aahmes.

 

 

The Hyksos came to Egypt ages before the Sea Peoples.

And not by sea.

[docyabut2]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The Hyksos came to Egypt ages before the Sea Peoples.

And not by sea.

 

Who are whence were The Shepherds is not very definitely known. Rawlinson calls them"a collection of all the nomadic hoardes of Syria and Arabia"an overwhelming floor of a quarter of a million of men who swooped down upon, conquered and occupied the delta, the Fayoum, and Lower Nile valley. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomadic_empire#:~:text=Nomadic empires%2C sometimes also called,early modern era (Dzungars).

 

The Cimmerians were an ancient Indo-European people living north of the Caucasus and the Sea of Azov as early as 1300 BCE

Edited April 6 by docyabut2

[atalante]

16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Atalante, what was the grudge of the Sea Peoples against Egypt, according to you?

Abe,

The Mycenaean Greeks had a bit of a grudge against Egypt's legendary pharaoah Memnon, whose huge army sided with the Trojans according to Arctinus of Miletus (8th or 7th century BC) and Quintus Smyrnaeus (4th century AD).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethiopis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon#Memnon_in_Quintus_of_Smyrna's_Posthomerica

Since Egypt's huge army allegedly disappeared at the death of Memnon -- I equate Memnon with pharaoh Ramesses III, the last great Egyptian pharaoh of the New Kingdom.

 

But for a more pragmatic line of reasoning, the previous Hittite empire regrouped as Syro-Hittite kingdoms (ca. 1200 - 800 BCE) in regions that surrounded the beach-head that Sea Peoples had initially captured during their 1180 BCE invasion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states

The invading Sea Peoples would have been substantially outnumbered, and were surrounded by the Syro-Hittite states.  So common sense likely urged the Sea Peoples to retreat from the northern Levant, and migrate to Egypt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states#/media/File:NeoHittiteStates.gif

Edited April 7 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

On 4/4/2023 at 3:07 AM, The Puzzler said:

Yes, so, why would he do that? Except to Infiltrate the traitors out….oddly enough, we do find Ethiopians on the “Egyptian” throne not long after the Sea People…

It was actually Merneptah, not Ramsesses III who kept the circumcised penises and the first Pharoah to encounter the Sea People. He was 70 years old, coming to the throne…..”The Libyans ASSISTED by The Sea People”…so we should ask, why were The Libyans dirty on Egypt…?

One should also wonder why then…were The Phoenicians comfortable in settling in Carthage…?

”He was the thirteenth son of Ramesses II,”

“By the time he ascended to the throne, he was around seventy years old. He is arguably best known for his victory stele, featuring the first known mention of the name Israel. His throne name was Ba-en-re Mery-netjeru, which means "The Soul of Ra, Beloved of the Gods".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah

”Merneptah had to carry out several military campaigns during his reign. In the fifth year of his rule, he fought against the Libyans, who—with the assistance of the Sea Peoples—were threatening Egypt from the west. Merneptah led a victorious six-hour battle against a combined Libyan and Sea People force at the city of Perire, probably located on the western edge of the Nile delta. His account of this campaign against the Sea Peoples and Libu is described in prose on a wall beside the sixth pylon at Karnak, which states:

[Beginning of the victory that his majesty achieved in the land of Libya] -I, Ekwesh, Teresh, Lukka, Sherden, Shekelesh, Northerners coming from all lands.

Later in the inscription, Merneptah receives news of the attack:

...the third season, saying: 'The wretched, fallen chief of Libya, Meryre, son of Ded, has fallen upon the country of Tehenu with his bowmen--Sherden, Shekelesh, Ekwesh, Lukka, Teresh, Taking the best of every warrior and every man of war of his country. He has brought his wife and his children--leaders of the camp, and he has reached the western boundary in the fields of Perire.'^[8]

Merneptah makes an offering to Ptah on a column

An inscription on the Athribis Stele, now in the garden of Cairo Museum, declares "His majesty was enraged at their report, like a lion", assembled his court, and gave a rousing speech. Later he dreamed he saw Ptah handing him a sword and saying "Take thou (it) and banish thou the fearful heart from thee." When the bowmen went forth, says the inscription, "Amun was with them as a shield." After six hours the surviving Nine Bows threw down their weapons, abandoned their baggage and dependents, and ran for their lives. Merneptah states that he defeated the invasion, killing 6,000 soldiers and taking 9,000 prisoners. To be sure of the numbers, among other things, he took the penises of all uncircumcised enemy dead and the hands of all the circumcised, from which history learns that the Ekwesh were circumcised, a fact causing some to doubt that they were Greek

Edited April 7 by The Puzzler