Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

I would think maybe Antigonas missed it but know you didn’t. But cheers everyone, this is a beyond entertaining thread.

https://www.omniglot.com/writing/etruscan.htm

It's related to Raetic (Alps) and Lemnian (Lemnos).

[The Puzzler]

19 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

No one suggested that. Only the script and a couple of gods maybe came from the Greeks, although from the looks of it the Etruscan script could have been borrowed directly from the Phoenicians.

The PDF is saying the script does not appear to be Greek at all. 
Since the Greek came from Phoenician, it doesn’t appear to be Phoenician either, more like Luwian heiroglyphs, which them being relative to Trojans can explain, somewhat the transfer into Italy via the Aeneus story, where Etruscan may have kept the original Trojan Luwian type of language and text, whereby the more Celtic/Germanic IE was integrating the country through Latium and Umbria. There’s no clear answer for sure. Just keeps my mind active.

[The Puzzler]

13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

https://www.omniglot.com/writing/etruscan.htm

It's related to Raetic (Alps) and Lemnian (Lemnos).

Mythology of the Po is old and complex. Even PHaethon is said to have fell there.

I agree it is related to both, because they interacted, traded, subdued and eventually controlled those areas. So this mixing of languages appear there.

It would be unlikely to find them (Etruscan proper) in those areas pre 800BC at earliest. 
People who settled in Anatolia have more than enough evidence to suggest many were steppe/Eastern Indo-European hoardes from at least 2000BC. (Gutians, Hittes etc) Some continues West through Europe, interacting within Germanic areas, to the south, to Celtic areas, hitting the Italic peninsula, spreading language and genes the whole way.

If Etruscans came from Anatolia specifically Lycia, around 900BC, and integrated with Northern Italic people, language would be mixed and it’s almost impossible today to solve this riddle. However it would make sense core elements were still IE.

 

 

Edited September 21 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I think an Urnfield/Terremare type of Villanovan or proto-Villanovan who inhabited the pre-“Etruscan”, Umbrian and Latin areas, and encompassing the later Ligurian known coast were the sea-people known as the Teresh.

Edited September 21 by The Puzzler

[Antigonos]

51 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I would think maybe Antigonas missed it but know you didn’t. But cheers everyone, this is a beyond entertaining thread.

Yep, I did miss it.

Agreed. I’m enjoying the discussion. 

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Since the Greek came from Phoenician, it doesn’t appear to be Phoenician either, more like Luwian heiroglyphs,

Edited September 21 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

15 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I’m just stating what the “experts” said….and I think it quite possible the Phoenicians derived it from them.

Much of the letters did start from logograms..aleph ox/alpha, B Beth/house/beta etc. The Etruscans alphabet could easily have been adapted from Luwian to become more readable, derived from their language and simplified for trade at the time.

A….possibly Ama literally means woman, feminine in Etruscan, so Amplecti….is Ama…Amplecti as in the Luwian glyphs shown, women.

A in Etruscan is not aleph/ox.

That is why it’s not a Phoenician alphabet. That’s why it is agreeable with Luwian.

Edited September 22 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I’m just stating what the “experts” said….and I think it quite possible the Phoenicians derived it from them.

Much of the letters did start from logograms..aleph ox/alpha, B Beth/house/beta etc. The Etruscans alphabet could easily have been adapted from Luwian to become more readable, derived from their language and simplified for trade at the time.

A….possibly Ama literally means woman, feminine in Etruscan, so Amplecti….is Ama…Amplecti as in the Luwian glyphs shown, women.

A in Etruscan is not aleph/ox.

That is why it’s not a Phoenician alphabet. That’s why it is agreeable with Luwian.

Sorry, but MY eyes tell me that the Etruscan script doesn't resemble Luwian script at all ( ok, maybe from a mile distance...) but that it dòes resemble Phoenician script. It also resembles an old, Phoenician derived west Greek script I forgot the name of. **

But just compare the images I posted.

For the rest your logic is lost on me.

** Edit:

From the Omniglot link:

The Etruscan alphabet developed from a Western variety of the Greek alphabet brought to Italy by Euboean Greeks. The earliest known inscription dates from the middle of the 6th century BC. Most Etruscan inscriptions are written in horizontal lines from right to left, but some are boustrophedon (running alternately left to right then right to left).

More than 10,000 Etruscan inscriptions have been found on tombstones, vases, statues, mirrors and jewellery. Fragments of an Etruscan book made of linen have also been found. Etruscan texts can be read: i.e. the pronunciation of the letters is known, though scholars are not sure what all the words mean.

Edited September 22 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:08 PM, The Puzzler said:

I think an Urnfield/Terremare type of Villanovan or proto-Villanovan who inhabited the pre-“Etruscan”, Umbrian and Latin areas, and encompassing the later Ligurian known coast were the sea-people known as the Teresh.

Do you have an opinion on this?

[atalante]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Do you have an opinion on this?

Perhaps those people were a supplemental Sea People, who never attacked Egypt (and thus were NOT Teresh).

In the Greek Epic Cycle, the epic Telegony said those people, from the west side of Italy, ravaged western Greece (ca 1200-1150 BCE), but not Egypt.  According to some accounts, Telegonus was the father of Italus, who gave his name to Italy,  

 

from:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegonus_(son_of_Odysseus)

When Telegonus had grown to manhood, his mother Circe sent him in search of Odysseus, who by this time had finally returned to Ithaca from the Trojan War. Shipwrecked on Ithaca by a storm, Telegonus believed mistakenly that he had made landfall on Corcyra (Corfu) and, assailed by hunger, began plundering the island. Odysseus and his oldest son, Telemachus, defended their city and, in the ensuing melée, Telegonus accidentally killed his father with a lance tipped with the venomous spine of a stingray. Telemachus married Telegonus' mother, the enchantress Circe, while Telegonus took to wife Odysseus' widow Penelope.^[6] By Penelope, he was the father of Italus who, according to some accounts, gave his name to Italy.^[2]

This is the story told in the Telegony, an early Greek epic that does not survive except in a summary, but which was attributed to Eugamon or Eugammon of Cyrene and written as a sequel to the Odyssey. Variants of the story are found in later poets: for example, in a tragedy by Sophocles, Odysseus Acanthoplex (which also does not survive), Odysseus finds out from an oracle that he is doomed to be killed by his son. He assumes that this means Telemachus, whom he promptly banishes to a nearby island. When Telegonus arrives on Ithaca, he approaches Odysseus' house, but the guards do not admit him to see his father; a commotion arises, and Odysseus, thinking it is Telemachus, rushes out and attacks. In the fighting, he is killed by Telegonus. This story has many similarities with the more well-known tale of Oedipus.

In Italic and Roman mythology, Telegonus became known as the founder of Tusculum, a city just to the southeast of Rome, and sometimes also as the founder of Praeneste, a city in the same region (modern Palestrina).^[7] Ancient Roman poets regularly used phrases such as "walls of Telegonus" (e.g. Propertius 2.32) or "Circaean walls" to refer to Tusculum.

Edited September 22 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

It has been hypothesised that the Teresh, who appear among other Sea Peoples in a number of Ancient Egyptian inscriptions from 1200 to 1150 BC, may be the same people as the Tyrsenians. (Pre-Etruscans)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

They were known pirates from before the 8th century too.and obviously capable of sailing attacks. 

“According to Ephorus these were the earliest Greek cities to be founded in Sicily, that is, in the tenth generation after the Trojan war; for before that time men were so afraid of the bands of Tyrrhenian pirates and the savagery of the barbarians in this region that they would not so much as sail thither for trafficking”

Edited September 22 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

7 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

It has been hypothesised that the Teresh, who appear among other Sea Peoples in a number of Ancient Egyptian inscriptions from 1200 to 1150 BC, may be the same people as the Tyrsenians. (Pre-Etruscans)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

They were known pirates from before the 8th century too.and obviously capable of sailing attacks. 

“According to Ephorus these were the earliest Greek cities to be founded in Sicily, that is, in the tenth generation after the Trojan war; for before that time men were so afraid of the bands of Tyrrhenian pirates and the savagery of the barbarians in this region that they would not so much as sail thither for trafficking”

 

Puzzler,

Egypt's "Teresh" Sea People would have originated from Turkey, before their legendary westward migration to Italy.

 

I prefer to go by the recommendation in the actual wikipedia article about Sea Peoples (footnote 52, from Manfred Korfman) -- that Egypt (ca 1200 BC) probably considered the Teresh as pirates from the place named Taruisa by Hittites.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#History_of_the_concept

 

 

 

However I agree that your cited statements by Ephorus, about Tyrrhenian pirates in the first 10 generations after the legendary Trojan War, are likely to be credible.

 

from https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ephorus

Ephorus, (born c. 405 BC, Cyme, Aeolis—died 330 BC), Greek historian, the author of the first universal history, who, despite his defects, was esteemed in Classical times and is considered the best of the historians writing in his period.

According to uncertain tradition, Ephorus was the pupil of Isocrates, whose school rivaled Plato’s Academy in fame. Ephorus’ Historiai (History), his major work, was completed with a 30th book added by his son Demophilus, who edited the entire work. It begins with the return of the Heracleidae to Peloponnesus and ends with the siege of Perinthus (340) by Philip II of Macedon, 

Ephorus usually (though not always) distinguished clearly between the mythical and the historical and recognized that any account of far-distant history that is too detailed should be viewed with some suspicion. The influential 3rd-century-BC Greek historian and statesman Polybius praised him as the first universal historian for his synoptic view of both Greek and Middle Eastern history.

Ephorus’ work was used as a source by Diodorus Siculus, whose chronological blunders arise in part from trying to reproduce him in annalistic form. Polybius gave Ephorus credit for naval warfare conditions but belittled his descriptions of certain land operations.

 

Edited September 22 by atalante

[Antigonos]

6 minutes ago, atalante said:

 

 

 

fhttps://www.britannica.com/biography/Ephorus

Ephorus, (born c. 405 BC, Cyme, Aeolis—died 330 BC), Greek historian, the author of the first universal history, who, despite his defects, was esteemed in Classical times and is considered the best of the historians writing in his period.

According to uncertain tradition, Ephorus was the pupil of Isocrates, whose school rivaled Plato’s Academy in fame. Ephorus’ Historiai (History), his major work, was completed with a 30th book added by his son Demophilus, who edited the entire work. It begins with the return of the Heracleidae to Peloponnesus and ends with the siege of Perinthus (340) by Philip II of Macedon, 

Ephorus usually (though not always) distinguished clearly between the mythical and the historical and recognized that any account of far-distant history that is too detailed should be viewed with some suspicion. The influential 3rd-century-BC Greek historian and statesman Polybius praised him as the first universal historian for his synoptic view of both Greek and Middle Eastern history.

Ephorus’ work was used as a source by Diodorus Siculus, whose chronological blunders arise in part from trying to reproduce him in annalistic form. Polybius gave Ephorus credit for naval warfare conditions but belittled his descriptions of certain land operations.uzzler,

 

All true.

Polybius is one of my favorite ancient authors.
 

Diodorus is reliable with some things, but not others. Some of his inaccuracies in his history are disappointing. 

[The Puzzler]

6 hours ago, Antigonos said:

All true.

Polybius is one of my favorite ancient authors.
 

Diodorus is reliable with some things, but not others. Some of his inaccuracies in his history are disappointing. 

Diodorus is a Johnny Come Lately but I agree, his words have some merit.

Edited September 23 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:15 AM, The Puzzler said:

I’m just stating what the “experts” said….and I think it quite possible the Phoenicians derived it from them.

And who are these 'experts'? Woudhuizen?

Did you read the pdf Cormac linked to?

 

[Abramelin]

On 9/22/2023 at 1:34 PM, The Puzzler said:

Do you have an opinion on this?

None.

It's all starting to resemble a guessing game.

[Abramelin]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:15 AM, The Puzzler said:

I’m just stating what the “experts” said….and I think it quite possible the Phoenicians derived it from them.

"Quite possible"...

Remember this? :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serabit_el-Khadim

Or this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_el-Hol_inscriptions

Edited September 23 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

17 hours ago, atalante said:

 

I prefer to go by the recommendation in the actual wikipedia article about Sea Peoples (footnote 52, from Manfred Korfman) -- that Egypt (ca 1200 BC) probably considered the Teresh as pirates from the place named Taruisa by Hittites.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#History_of_the_concept

 

And I posted in this thread that the Teresh may have come from the Taurus mountains. Anatolia.

[Abramelin]

12 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Diodorus is a Johnny Come Lately but I agree, his words have some merit.

I think Diodorus is one of the few most reliable ancient historians/sources.

He was a sceptic, and sometimes a bit too sceptic (Pytheas).

Edited September 23 by Abramelin

[Antigonos]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I think Diodorus is one of the few most reliable ancient historians/sources.

He was a sceptic, and sometimes a bit too sceptic (Pytheas).

His reliability often depends on what he’s specifically writing about.
 

For instance, although we know he traveled to Egypt, there are indications in his writing  that suggest he never actually left Alexandria; like mistakes unlikely to have been made by one of his major sources Hecataeus of Abdera, who had a firm knowledge of Egypt’s history, people and architecture. So his written account of the Labyrinth, for example, carries less weight than that of Herodotus and Strabo. 

 

Edited September 23 by Antigonos

[The Puzzler]

21 hours ago, Abramelin said:

None.

It's all starting to resemble a guessing game.

So what did you expect with a topic like this?

[The Puzzler]

18 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And I posted in this thread that the Teresh may have come from the Taurus mountains. Anatolia.

I don’t believe that for a minute.

[The Puzzler]

20 hours ago, Abramelin said:

"Quite possible"...

Remember this? :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serabit_el-Khadim

Or this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_el-Hol_inscriptions

Yes. However I think new evaluations have come to light here. 

[The Puzzler]

18 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And I posted in this thread that the Teresh may have come from the Taurus mountains. Anatolia.

Pray tell, how a sea-faring federation would come from the Taurus Mountains….? 

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

Pray tell, how a sea-faring federation would come from the Taurus Mountains….? 

Maybe its location gives you a clue: