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Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History


Abramelin

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38 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Ok, then show us.

Phoenician script derived from Luwian hieroglyphs seems very unlikely.

The Wadi-el-Hol and Serabit El-Khadim theories seems far more likely.

The more I've been reading the items you and others have provided the more enigmatic the topic becomes. Thank you (and everyone else) for the points of view and links you've all been providing.:tu:

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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

 

Phoenician script derived from Luwian hieroglyphs seems very unlikely.

 

I think so as well. There are several obvious future Greek characters in the Etruscan that made it to the Phoenician. No resemblance to anything Luwian.

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On 9/22/2023 at 1:34 PM, The Puzzler said:

Do you have an opinion on this?

That's from Woudhuizen, right?

Well, I have read the conclusion of his paper about the ethnicity of the Sea Peoples, and it's possible.

But now I also understand why you think the Etruscan script was derived from the Luwian script.

No, the Etruscan language may be related to the Luwian language, but that doesn't automatically mean the Etruscans also adopted the Luwian script and reshaped its logograms to their Etruscan letters.

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5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Maybe its location gives you a clue:

Locator-map-Taurus-Mountains.jpg

I posted this map before in this thread:

Screenshot_20230924-203332_Gallery.jpg.2dbf6f5b046cf7219fba8986f3a83db0.jpg

 

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19 hours ago, Abramelin said:

That's from Woudhuizen, right?

Well, I have read the conclusion of his paper about the ethnicity of the Sea Peoples, and it's possible.

But now I also understand why you think the Etruscan script was derived from the Luwian script.

No, the Etruscan language may be related to the Luwian language, but that doesn't automatically mean the Etruscans also adopted the Luwian script and reshaped its logograms to their Etruscan letters.

Forget the script for now…it’s a difficult subject that scholars have discussed for decades, I doubt we can solve it here.

One of the key motives of this topic was to identify the Sea People I believe. 

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21 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Maybe its location gives you a clue:

Locator-map-Taurus-Mountains.jpg

OK, it’s fair enough. I do think some Sea People came from this area, like the Lukka. 

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6 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

OK, it’s fair enough. I do think some Sea People came from this area, like the Lukka. 

Baruch Halpern

THE SEA-PEOPLES AND IDENTITY

https://scripta.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/scripta/article/download/40117/36318

Quote:

Merneptah reports that the Sherden and Shekelesh joined Libyan elements along with the Teresh (tw-ry-s', often identified with the Tiras of Genesis 10:2, near Tabal, Phrygia and Ionia, so, somewhere in the vicinity of Anatolia)

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11 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Baruch Halpern

THE SEA-PEOPLES AND IDENTITY

https://scripta.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/scripta/article/download/40117/36318

Quote:

Merneptah reports that the Sherden and Shekelesh joined Libyan elements along with the Teresh (tw-ry-s', often identified with the Tiras of Genesis 10:2, near Tabal, Phrygia and Ionia, so, somewhere in the vicinity of Anatolia)

So, we are meant to believe that Western Med nations, Libyans, Shekelesh and Sherdan…somehow joined an Eastern Med people….? This is what is not making sense to me….I’d imagine Libyans, Shekelesh and Sherdan were aligned with another Western Med people, rather than popping up with people from the Taurus Mountains…

Merneptah reports that the Sherden and Shekelesh joined Libyan elements along with the Teresh”

Edited by The Puzzler
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It boils down to docy’s fave subject….the bird headed boats….

Can you place these boats in Anatolia? 

Edited by The Puzzler
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No? I didn’t think so, when we clearly see this style of boat descending from an Urnfield Culture.

But by all means, show us bird head boats from Anatolia.

CCB9E684-DA22-494E-A7E0-A857002BD769.jpeg

Edited by The Puzzler
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7 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

So, we are meant to believe that Western Med nations, Libyans, Shekelesh and Sherdan…somehow joined an Eastern Med people….? This is what is not making sense to me….

Such a thought isn’t as unlikely as it sounds.

The connections between contemporary cultures of the ancient world are older and deeper than usually surmised. None of them existed in isolation. With so much ancient documentation lost there may have been understandings, treaties or relationships we are currently unaware of.

Overland migration/trade routes from Anatolia to Mesopotamia/the Levant/Egypt had long been established by then. It makes sense that sea routes from the same origin point coming to Libya/Egypt would also have been in existence.

As for eastern and western peoples joining forces… think of a similar modern day example like say French and Australian troops fighting together during WW2. (Different circumstances of course, but the point being distant allies coming together for a common cause).

 

Edited by Antigonos
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“Depictions of Urnfield ships mirror those in the Egyptian Hieroglyphics depicting the Sea People. The ships have prominent bird heads on the stern and prow, an unusual feature which is unlikely to be a coincidence.”

Archaeology suggests that disturbance in Central Europe which affected the Balkans and may have caused a movement of people downwards into the Mediterranean. These people from Illyria and Central Europe may have comprised the Sea People or may have pushed others into piracy”

https://www.parlia.com/a/archaeology-from-balkans-indicates-crisis-prior

To be fair from the same site, counter-argument…

The classic bird-headed boats on the reliefs in Egypt are not unique to the Urnfield culture. Boats using bird-headed figurines feature prominently in several cultures across the world. The bird-headed ship relief at Hama in Syria is a strong candidate for the origin of the ship-builders.”

Edited by The Puzzler
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11 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

So, we are meant to believe that Western Med nations, Libyans, Shekelesh and Sherdan…somehow joined an Eastern Med people….? This is what is not making sense to me….I’d imagine Libyans, Shekelesh and Sherdan were aligned with another Western Med people, rather than popping up with people from the Taurus Mountains…

Merneptah reports that the Sherden and Shekelesh joined Libyan elements along with the Teresh”

You seem to assume that because they had no 'social media' back then, people on both sides of the Mediterranean were ignorant of eachother.

Think 'trade'.

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11 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

It boils down to docy’s fave subject….the bird headed boats….

Can you place these boats in Anatolia? 

Docy was convinced they were Tartessian boats.

She posted a photo of a Tartessian hourse's bit a dozen times to prove her point.

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11 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

No? I didn’t think so, when we clearly see this style of boat descending from an Urnfield Culture.

But by all means, show us bird head boats from Anatolia.

CCB9E684-DA22-494E-A7E0-A857002BD769.jpeg

You assume all boats depicted in Medinet Habu are bird-headed boats.

 

Btw., if I don't respond immediately ("No?") it's most probably because I'm working.

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36 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

You assume all boats depicted in Medinet Habu are bird-headed boats.

 

Btw., if I don't respond immediately ("No?") it's most probably because I'm working.

I swear I once saw an online image of a different boat of the Sea Peoples, but can't find it right now.

But even if all these Sea People boats carry bird's heads, it doesn't necessarily mean they were of one culture.

I suggested a while ago - based on a paper I linked to - that the maritine technology of the Shardana was shared by others, including the Egyptians.

The same could have happened with people from the Urnfield Culture: their bird-headed boats could have been used by other cultures. Much like you nowadays see many countries use Jumbo Jets.

 

Btw.,  I found another interesting site:

Ep. 020 – The Sea Peoples Sail South: Vol. II

The Sea Peoples were migrants teamed up with experienced sea-raiders, displaced by forces outside both their control and the control of the pharaoh of Egypt.

https://maritimehistorypodcast.com/ep-020-the-sea-peoples-sail-south-vol-ii/

Edited by Abramelin
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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

The Sea Peoples were migrants teamed up with experienced sea-raiders, displaced by forces outside both their control and the control of the pharaoh of Egypt.

And thàt's the real topic of this thread:

What event set all these people of around the Med on the move at about the same time?

It can't be just the battle of Kadesh or Tollense, or some country having a monopoly on copper.

It has to be something major, like a plague raging around the Med and Europe, some astronomic event, massive droughts, a 'swarm' of earthquakes hitting the Med region, and so on.

Think: people from Central Europe, the Western Med, Anatolia, Canaan (?), and North Africa, all started wars, attacking eachother, or working together, and finally meeting in Egypt.

Edited by Abramelin
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Old Hebrew and the Greek Alphabet

The Old Hebrew alphabet, was adopted by the Greeks around the 12th century BC. The first five letters of the Hebrew alphabet are aleph, beyt, gimel, dalet and hey. These same letters, adopted by the Greeks, became the alpha, beta, gamma, delta and E-psilon (meaning "simple E"). While Hebrew is usually written from right to left, Greek was written left to right and the orientation of the letters were reversed from the Old Hebrew.

Ancient Greek Alphabet
 
 
the same letter - Aurl(101).jpg.2c4d924ea09e107c6477ea3bf9b466ac.jpg
 
 
 
 
Edited by docyabut2
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Origin Theories

One of the stranger ancient scripts one might come across, Ogham is also known as the 'Celtic Tree Alphabet'.

There are four popular theories discussing the origin of Ogham. The differing theories are unsurprising considering that the script has similarities to ciphers in Germanic runes, Latin, elder futhark, and the Greek alphabet.

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