Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Abramelin]

 

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Ugarit was once part of of the Phoenician conglomorate of city states, but it became dominated by Hittites/Luwians later on.

They developed their own abjad  based on cuneiform script.

Even the order of the letters in their abjad/alphabet was the same as the alphabet/abjad developed by their brethren, those other Phoenicians located south of them.

Sorry. It was Byblos who developed its own abjad before the other Phoenicians did, who based it on Egyptian hieroglyphs.

 

%%%%%

Interesting to note: apparently the Phoenicians (Byblos) used a different script before the one that became the ancestor of most later scripts like Greek, Latin and many others.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byblos_syllabary

Edited October 2 by Abramelin

[granpa]

Just follow the migration route. Noah is Ethiopia highlands (Olympus). Magog is India (Nod). Gomer is Germany. Meshech is the Basques. Tiras  is Carthage (The sea people). The Etruscans are Ex-Tiras-ians. They came from (evolved from) the Tiras-ians.

Japhet  is the only true son of Noah. The other two (Shem and Ham) already existed and were "adopted" (conquered).

Edited October 2 by granpa

[Kenemet]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Good question. All I know is that the Egyptians used 1 hieroglyph for L and R. A lion if I remember well.

Let's ask @Kenemet@Wepwawet@Windowpane@Thanos5150

They're foreign names (for the ancient Egyptians.)  The AE's didn't actually have a symbol for the letter "L" until the pesky Greeks showed up with names like Ptolemy (they get it before that, but... it's a result of having to deal with words in a different language.)

[Kenemet]

12 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

You know who was in Egyptian Thebes? Phoenicians.

Funny how we have the same name in Boeotia, a Cadmus region.

 

Medinet Habu
مدينة هابو

Coptic: ϫⲏⲙⲉ
Medinet Habu Location within Egypt
Alternative name	Djamet (Late Egyptian)[1][2] ḏꜣmwt in hieroglyphs
Region	Upper Egypt
Coordinates	25°43′11″N32°36′03″E
Type	Temple/settlement
History
Abandoned	9th century AD
Periods	Early Dynastic Period to Early Middle Ages

Medinet Habu (Arabic: مدينة هابو; Ancient Egyptian: ḏꜣmwt; Sahidic Coptic: (ⲧ)ϫⲏⲙⲉ, ϫⲏⲙⲏ, ϫⲉⲙⲉ, ϫⲉⲙⲏ, ϫⲏⲙⲓ; Bohairic Coptic: ϭⲏⲙⲓ)^[1] is an archaeological locality situated near the foot of the Theban Hills on the West Bank of the River Nile opposite the modern city of Luxor, Egypt. Although other structures are located within the area and important discoveries have also been made at these sites, the location is today associated almost synonymously with the largest and best preserved site, the Mortuary Temple of Ramesses III.

The Greeks were the ones who renamed the Egyptian city Djamet as "Thebes" (possibly to the great confusion of the Egyptians living there.  
Medinet Habu is, of course, an Arabic name -- when you get overwhelmed by a larger civilization (as the Egyptians were in the late New Kingdom and afterward) then your cities often end up being renamed for the convenience of your overlords.

[Kenemet]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I thought it was known the Egyptians sent them to settle there?

No, the Egyptians didn't have any ability to send anyone other than their own people to another location.

Until conquerors came, there wasn't a sizeable number of foreigners in Egypt.  

[Abramelin]

21 hours ago, granpa said:

Just follow the migration route. Noah is Ethiopia highlands (Olympus). Magog is India (Nod). Gomer is Germany. Meshech is the Basques. Tiras  is Carthage (The sea people). The Etruscans are Ex-Tiras-ians. They came from (evolved from) the Tiras-ians.

Japhet  is the only true son of Noah. The other two (Shem and Ham) already existed and were "adopted" (conquered).

Sorry Granpa, but this is nonsense.

[Abramelin]

18 hours ago, Kenemet said:

No, the Egyptians didn't have any ability to send anyone other than their own people to another location.

Until conquerors came, there wasn't a sizeable number of foreigners in Egypt.  

Believe me, I read it in a pdf I downloaded some time ago.

So, the next assignment is finding that pdf.

It will take some time.

[atalante]

On 10/2/2023 at 10:49 AM, The Puzzler said:

Break it down….the Egyptians…who? Upper, lower, Ramesses…sent “them”…from where? Where did the Philistines originate? Sardinia.  Where were they from? If sent there, as captives…

As soon as Egypt pulled out of its regional administrative center at Beth Shean (in Palestine), pottery appeared at Beth Shean similar to Sea Peoples pottery.  This occurred ca 1150-1130 BCE.  I presume that Ramsses III had started supporting his mercenary Peleset troops, which Ramesses III said he stationed in Palestine, ca.1176 BCE.  But Egypt began having financial problems soon after Ramesses III; and the Egyptian garrisons in the Levant seem to have stopped being supported by homeland Egypt ca 1150-1130 BCE. 

 

from:  https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/beth-shean

BET(H)-SHEAN

Late vii–Lower vi (c. 1200–1125 b.c.e., Iron ia) The 20^th Dynasty, the final stage of Egyptian control in Palestine, begins with an ephemeral phase called "Late vii" (12^th century b.c.e.). The main stratum of this period is Level vi, which the University of Pennsylvania divided into "Lower vi" (12^th century b.c.e.) and "Upper vi" (11^th century b.c.e.). The Level vi temple was rebuilt on the same spot as the Level vii sanctuary, while the Migdol and the Commandant's House were replaced by probable storehouses. The square administrative building of Level vii was replaced in Lower vi by Building 1500, the "Governor's Residence," a square building with a central hall surrounded by rooms. In Egypt, this type of structure is known as a "Center Hall House." Architectural fragments from this and other buildings included lotus-shaped column capitals, inscribed doorjambs, a life-sized statue of a seated Ramesses iii which was found in the following level, and inscriptions. The most important inscription was a carved limestone lintel depicting Ramesses-Weser-Khepesh, who is identified as "commander of the troops," with cartouches of Ramesses iii next to him. These finds, as well as a high percentage of locally produced Egyptian pottery, attest to an intensive Egyptian presence at this time.

In the Hebrew Bible, Beth-Shean was assigned to the tribe of Manasseh, but they were unable to hold onto it because of the military superiority of the Canaanites (Josh. 17:11, 16; Judg. 1:27). According to the conventional chronology, this period in biblical history would correspond to Lower vi when the Egyptians were in control of Beth-Shean. It is uncertain when the Egyptians finally abandoned the site, but many scholars suggest the second half of the 12^th century in the time of Ramesses vi or Ramesses viii. In the ashes of the destruction of Lower vi were found sherds of Mycenean iiic probably imported from Cyprus. This type of pottery is typical to the period of the Sea Peoples migration from the Aegean to the east.

iron age ib (upper vi)

With the construction of Upper vi emerges a new material culture typical to the 11^th century b.c.e. and lacking the Egyptian component. The plan of the settlement represents a significant departure from that of the Egyptian garrison.

Edited October 4 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

On 10/3/2023 at 4:55 AM, Abramelin said:

I don't know which Egyptian ruler sent them there to settle.

Philistines originated from Sardinia??

Where did you get that from?

It was more a frustrated question….like who are these people, do we even know anything really about any of this? It’s a theoretical proposal at best…are we getting anywhere at all? No. But it’s interesting to learn more about the decline of the Bronze Age in general that’s for sure.

PS…were the Peleset and Sherden similar…the same type of people?

”At Medinet Habu the corslet appears similar to that worn by the Philistines. ”

”The Sherden sword, it has been suggested by archaeologists since James Henry Breasted, may have developed from an enlargement of European daggers and been associated with the exploitation of Bohemian tin. Robert Drews suggested that use of this weapon by groups of Sherden and Philistine mercenaries made them capable of withstanding attacks by chariotry and so made them valuable allies in warfare”

Sherden Wiki

Edited October 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

On 10/3/2023 at 9:42 AM, Kenemet said:

No, the Egyptians didn't have any ability to send anyone other than their own people to another location.

Until conquerors came, there wasn't a sizeable number of foreigners in Egypt.  

 

”Years later, other waves of Sea People, the Sherden included, were defeated by Merneptah, son of Ramesses II, and Ramesses III. An Egyptian work written around 1100 BC, the Onomasticon of Amenope, documents the presence of the Sherden in Canaan.^[12] After being defeated by Pharaoh Ramesses III, they, along with other "Sea Peoples", would be allowed to settle in that territory, subject to Egyptian rule.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

Settling the Sherden in Canaanite territory, subject to Egyptian rule.

Edited October 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

On 10/3/2023 at 4:58 AM, Abramelin said:

Heh, Palestines are those claiming to be the original inhabitants of the Gaza strip.

They simply adopted the name of the region they settled in.

Edited to add:

The Peleset set out from Crete to attack Egypt.

But where they originally came from...

Again, part of my sarcastic rhetoric…

But indeed, where did the Peleset come from?

[The Puzzler]

On 10/3/2023 at 6:35 AM, granpa said:

Just follow the migration route. Noah is Ethiopia highlands (Olympus). Magog is India (Nod). Gomer is Germany. Meshech is the Basques. Tiras  is Carthage (The sea people). The Etruscans are Ex-Tiras-ians. They came from (evolved from) the Tiras-ians.

Japhet  is the only true son of Noah. The other two (Shem and Ham) already existed and were "adopted" (conquered).

Okely dokely…

You got me at Meshesh is the Basques…

Ill have another read.

[The Puzzler]

19 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Sorry Granpa, but this is nonsense.

You got to admit it’s a topic of its own….I took notes.

[The Puzzler]

On 10/3/2023 at 6:35 AM, granpa said:

Just follow the migration route. Noah is Ethiopia highlands (Olympus). Magog is India (Nod). Gomer is Germany. Meshech is the Basques. Tiras  is Carthage (The sea people). The Etruscans are Ex-Tiras-ians. They came from (evolved from) the Tiras-ians.

Japhet  is the only true son of Noah. The other two (Shem and Ham) already existed and were "adopted" (conquered).

As much as I dig your post…in both instances that places Carthage 350-400 years before it’s time, the Aeneid and what you said….Carthaginians can’t be sea people, unless we can bring the sea people forward 400 years or take Carthage back same. However, there is some loopholes to explore here which may make what you said clearer.

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

 

”Years later, other waves of Sea People, the Sherden included, were defeated by Merneptah, son of Ramesses II, and Ramesses III. An Egyptian work written around 1100 BC, the Onomasticon of Amenope, documents the presence of the Sherden in Canaan.^[12] After being defeated by Pharaoh Ramesses III, they, along with other "Sea Peoples", would be allowed to settle in that territory, subject to Egyptian rule.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

Settling the Sherden in Canaanite territory, subject to Egyptian rule.

That's different than a population that was already in Egypt and being sent off to resettle.

[Kenemet]

21 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Believe me, I read it in a pdf I downloaded some time ago.

So, the next assignment is finding that pdf.

It will take some time.

Please do.  I'd be happy to look at it and would appreciate the link.

However, the scenario I'm interpreting is "population that was in Egypt already is sent off somewhere."   It's unlikely that anyone would send the remnants of an army off (with no women or children) to a different area and resettle them there.  That's just asking for quick trouble.  I believe (with no hard evidence to back it up) that this must have been groups of refugee families with animals and some personal goods -- resettling them into an area would make a lot more sense than sending groups of defeated soldiers off somewhere.  

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

 

”Years later, other waves of Sea People, the Sherden included, were defeated by Merneptah, son of Ramesses II, and Ramesses III. An Egyptian work written around 1100 BC, the Onomasticon of Amenope, documents the presence of the Sherden in Canaan.^[12] After being defeated by Pharaoh Ramesses III, they, along with other "Sea Peoples", would be allowed to settle in that territory, subject to Egyptian rule.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

Settling the Sherden in Canaanite territory, subject to Egyptian rule.

@Kenemet

Puzzler's post is covering what that pdf was about.

"Subject to Egyptian rule".

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

 It's unlikely that anyone would send the remnants of an army off (with no women or children) to a different area and resettle them there.  That's just asking for quick trouble. 

Apparently that is what happened to the Philistines.

Only men, sailors went/were sent to Canaan. Within 200 years their descendents were genetically indistinguishable from the Canaanites surrounding them, as has been shown in this thread.

[docyabut2]

Is this the link ?

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/ships.htm

 

Edited October 4 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

9: Bird-boats {Vogelbarke). (A) Ornament from the Somes River at Satu Mare in north­ ern Rumania (European Bronze D?). (B) Ornament from Velem St. Vid in Hungary (European Bronze D?). (C) Bird-boat painted on a krater sherd from Tiryns. Late Helladic IIIC. (D) Ornament from Grunwald, Bava ria (Hallstatt A1 {NTS)). A-B after Gottlicher 1978: Tafs. 33: 439, 34: 440. C after Bouzek 1985: 177 fig. 88: 6. D after Hencken 1968B: 516 fig. 478: f. 4 2 CHAPTER 2

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Bird-boats-Vogelbarke-A-Ornament-from-the-Somes-River-at-Satu-Mare-in-north-ern_fig6_287243162

 So the boats came from north­ ern Rumania?

[Kenemet]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Apparently that is what happened to the Philistines.

Only men, sailors went/were sent to Canaan. Within 200 years their descendents were genetically indistinguishable from the Canaanites surrounding them, as has been shown in this thread.

I was always a little skeptical of the story -- or, rather, I felt there had to be more to it than just that.  You don't just turn a bunch of enemy combatants out into a distant area of your empire and say "there ya go, buddy."  

Wikipedia currently agrees that it's a sketchy claim by Ramesses II ("Ramesses III allegedly relocated a number of the pwrꜣsꜣtj to southern Canaan, as recorded in an inscription from his funerary temple in Medinet Habu,[15] and the Great Harris Papyrus.[16][17] Though archaeological investigation has been unable to correlate any such settlement existing during this time period." from Philistines - Wikipedia)

I can see them being rounded up in gangs and sent to labor building forts or parceled out as servants and slaves to people in that area, or sent to mines or something like that.  But turning a bunch of sailors out to pasture in an area where Egypt had constant low level revolts?  I find that unlikely (without more detail.)

 

NOTE:  that's just me and my skepticism.  I'm open to being convinced by further evidence.

 

[The Puzzler]

8 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

9: Bird-boats {Vogelbarke). (A) Ornament from the Somes River at Satu Mare in north­ ern Rumania (European Bronze D?). (B) Ornament from Velem St. Vid in Hungary (European Bronze D?). (C) Bird-boat painted on a krater sherd from Tiryns. Late Helladic IIIC. (D) Ornament from Grunwald, Bava ria (Hallstatt A1 {NTS)). A-B after Gottlicher 1978: Tafs. 33: 439, 34: 440. C after Bouzek 1985: 177 fig. 88: 6. D after Hencken 1968B: 516 fig. 478: f. 4 2 CHAPTER 2

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Bird-boats-Vogelbarke-A-Ornament-from-the-Somes-River-at-Satu-Mare-in-north-ern_fig6_287243162

 So the boats came from north­ ern Rumania?

I’ve lost the article, it was a book link, and wouldn’t let me copy it…but the i formation  you’re presenting sounds the same…yes, apparently, bird boats can be found from Romania, to Hallstatt to Greece to Hungary and into Italy even…I can imagine they even went into Spain since Urnfield type Celts moved that way also…

[Abramelin]

Btw., earlier in this thread it was suggested that the Shardana/Sherden did not originate in Sardinia, but had arrived there as one of the Sea Peoples.

The next article makes it very clear no foreigners started settling there before like 500 BCE:

Ancient DNA from Sardinia reveals 6,000 years of genetic history

https://www.heritagedaily.com/2020/02/ancient-dna-from-sardinia-reveals-6000-years-of-genetic-history/125862

[The Puzzler]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Btw., earlier in this thread it was suggested that the Shardana/Sherden did not originate in Sardinia, but had arrived there as one of the Sea Peoples.

The next article makes it very clear no foreigners started settling there before like 500 BCE:

Ancient DNA from Sardinia reveals 6,000 years of genetic history

https://www.heritagedaily.com/2020/02/ancient-dna-from-sardinia-reveals-6000-years-of-genetic-history/125862

This seems true…I found this interesting…

”The group’s results help explain similarities with DNA from mainland European individuals of the Neolithic and Copper Age, such as “Ötzi the Iceman,” an almost perfectly preserved, 5,300-year-old human discovered in alpine ice in northern Italy in 1991. Specifically, among modern Europeans, Ötzi’s DNA is most similar to modern-day Sardinians. The new study supports the theory that this similarity remains because Sardinia had less turnover of genetic ancestry over time than mainland Europe, which experienced large-scale migrations in the Bronze Age”

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/forefront/biological-sciences-articles/sardinia-ancient-dna

[The Puzzler]

The interesting thing is, the city and graves of Mycenae are c.1600BC, even though mythology should place them at 1200BC…it shows that the city of Mycenae was inhabited by a different type in 1600BC than 1200BC..were the older inhabitants of Mycenaean Greece driven out by a new type…? It’s hard to keep up with the different sects of Greek newcomers, old comers, brothers of myths but it’s easy to see, many different people were responsible for its formation…

“The site of Mycenae was the first in Greece to be subjected to a modern archaeological excavation.^[30] The German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann excavated it in 1876 along with Panayiotis Stamatakis, a Greek archaeologist appointed to supervise the excavations.^[15]Schliemann, inspired by Homer’s descriptions in the Iliad, in which Mycenae is termed "abounding in gold," began digging there.^[30] He was also following the accounts of the ancient geographer Pausanias who described the once-prosperous site and mentioned that according to a local tradition during the 2nd century AD. The grave of Agamemnon included his followers, his charioteer Eurymedon and the two children of Cassandra, all of whom were buried within the citadel.^[31] What Schliemann discovered in his excavation satisfied both his opinion of Homer's historical accuracy and his craving for valuable treasures. Among the objects he unearthed in Grave Circle A was a series of gold death masks, including one he proclaimed "The Death Mask of Agamemnon."^[30]Schliemann cleared five shafts and recognized them as the graves mentioned by Pausanias. He stopped after the fifth grave was excavated entirely, believing that he had finished exploring the Grave Circle. However, a year later, Panagiotis Stamatakis found a sixth shaft grave.^[32]

It has since been demonstrated that the burials in Grave Circle A date from 16th century BC, before the traditional time of the Trojan War (13th-12th century BC), in which Agamemnon is supposed to have participated”

 

The treasury of Atreus is identical to Sardinian tholos tombs and is in the timeframe I speak of…

”Treasury of Atreus, also called Tomb of Agamemnon, a beehive, or tholos, tomb built about 1350 to 1250 BC at Mycenae, Greece.”

Image of a Sardinian Tholos, beehive Tomb…

Edited October 7 by The Puzzler