Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[atalante]

16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Atalante, what was the grudge of the Sea Peoples against Egypt, according to you?

Abe,

The Mycenaean Greeks had a bit of a grudge against Egypt's legendary pharaoah Memnon, whose huge army sided with the Trojans according to Arctinus of Miletus (8th or 7th century BC) and Quintus Smyrnaeus (4th century AD).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethiopis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon#Memnon_in_Quintus_of_Smyrna's_Posthomerica

Since Egypt's huge army allegedly disappeared at the death of Memnon -- I equate Memnon with pharaoh Ramesses III, the last great Egyptian pharaoh of the New Kingdom.

 

But for a more pragmatic line of reasoning, the previous Hittite empire regrouped as Syro-Hittite kingdoms (ca. 1200 - 800 BCE) in regions that surrounded the beach-head that Sea Peoples had initially captured during their 1180 BCE invasion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states

The invading Sea Peoples would have been substantially outnumbered, and were surrounded by the Syro-Hittite states.  So common sense likely urged the Sea Peoples to retreat from the northern Levant, and migrate to Egypt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states#/media/File:NeoHittiteStates.gif

Edited April 7 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

On 4/4/2023 at 3:07 AM, The Puzzler said:

Yes, so, why would he do that? Except to Infiltrate the traitors out….oddly enough, we do find Ethiopians on the “Egyptian” throne not long after the Sea People…

It was actually Merneptah, not Ramsesses III who kept the circumcised penises and the first Pharoah to encounter the Sea People. He was 70 years old, coming to the throne…..”The Libyans ASSISTED by The Sea People”…so we should ask, why were The Libyans dirty on Egypt…?

One should also wonder why then…were The Phoenicians comfortable in settling in Carthage…?

”He was the thirteenth son of Ramesses II,”

“By the time he ascended to the throne, he was around seventy years old. He is arguably best known for his victory stele, featuring the first known mention of the name Israel. His throne name was Ba-en-re Mery-netjeru, which means "The Soul of Ra, Beloved of the Gods".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah

”Merneptah had to carry out several military campaigns during his reign. In the fifth year of his rule, he fought against the Libyans, who—with the assistance of the Sea Peoples—were threatening Egypt from the west. Merneptah led a victorious six-hour battle against a combined Libyan and Sea People force at the city of Perire, probably located on the western edge of the Nile delta. His account of this campaign against the Sea Peoples and Libu is described in prose on a wall beside the sixth pylon at Karnak, which states:

[Beginning of the victory that his majesty achieved in the land of Libya] -I, Ekwesh, Teresh, Lukka, Sherden, Shekelesh, Northerners coming from all lands.

Later in the inscription, Merneptah receives news of the attack:

...the third season, saying: 'The wretched, fallen chief of Libya, Meryre, son of Ded, has fallen upon the country of Tehenu with his bowmen--Sherden, Shekelesh, Ekwesh, Lukka, Teresh, Taking the best of every warrior and every man of war of his country. He has brought his wife and his children--leaders of the camp, and he has reached the western boundary in the fields of Perire.'^[8]

Merneptah makes an offering to Ptah on a column

An inscription on the Athribis Stele, now in the garden of Cairo Museum, declares "His majesty was enraged at their report, like a lion", assembled his court, and gave a rousing speech. Later he dreamed he saw Ptah handing him a sword and saying "Take thou (it) and banish thou the fearful heart from thee." When the bowmen went forth, says the inscription, "Amun was with them as a shield." After six hours the surviving Nine Bows threw down their weapons, abandoned their baggage and dependents, and ran for their lives. Merneptah states that he defeated the invasion, killing 6,000 soldiers and taking 9,000 prisoners. To be sure of the numbers, among other things, he took the penises of all uncircumcised enemy dead and the hands of all the circumcised, from which history learns that the Ekwesh were circumcised, a fact causing some to doubt that they were Greek

Edited April 7 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The hands of all the circumcised…that’s interesting, he saw a divide…he knew who was who by this visual.

The Ekwesh were circumcised.

They were not Greek. 
The Ekwesh then, were either, Egyptians themselves, traitors, Ethiopians, traitors,  or Syrio-Phoenicians, traitors.

No wonder Egypt was edgy.

[The Puzzler]

Maybe the Libyans wanted more power…..because that’s what eventually happened, Hannibal and his elephants crossing the Alps to Rome…the Punic Wars were worse than we know. It was a relentless power struggle. We all know who won, no need for details there.

“Relentless attacks by groups known as the Sea Peoples around 1200 BC virtually destroyed all the major powers of the Mediterranean, and cleared the way for the rise of the Greeks, Romans and Western civilization.”

https://phoenician.org/sea_peoples/

Its like I said, they aligned with the powerful early PHoenician states early on, the Phoenicians having influence over Greece at that time, THebes in Greece and THebes in Egypt…knowing, that they, the Phoenicians  would help them, the Libyans become powerful.Phoenicians set up the state of Carthage in Libya.  The whole thing is a nepotism job. Phoenicians never attacked their brothers.

Edited April 7 by The Puzzler

[docyabut2]

 

Tribe: Bamileke

 

Origin: Grasslands Cameroon

Tribe: Bamileke

 

Origin: Grasslands Cameroon

 

the hats ?

 

Edited April 7 by docyabut2

[The Puzzler]

3 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

 

Tribe: Bamileke

 

Origin: Grasslands Cameroon

Tribe: Bamileke

 

Origin: Grasslands Cameroon

 

the hats ?

 

These hats?

Interesting to note, the men literally look the same as the ones with Egyptian styled hairpieces…then there is the same attired men with helmets with horns…

Edited April 7 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Just on the hats/helmets…it seems these people were more relative to Lebanon than Libya as this scene is from the Battle of Djahy, in Southern Lebanon. He fought two battles, Ramesses III, one there and one in the Nile Delta,  but these pictures are from the said Djary battle.

”Prior to the battle, the Sea Peoples had sacked the Hittite vassal state of Amurru which was located close to the border of the Egyptian Empire. This gave Ramesses III time to prepare for the expected invasion. As he states in an inscription from his mortuary temple at Medinet Habu: "I equipped my frontier in Zahi (Djahy) prepared before them."^[3] The Hittitologist Trevor Bryce writes that the Sea Peoples' "land forces were moving south along the Levantine coast and through Palestine when they were confronted and stopped by Ramesses' forces at the Egyptian frontier in Djahy in the region of later Phoenicia".”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Djahy

Sea Peoples in conflict with the Egyptians in the battle of Djahy

[The Puzzler]

Some mention the Peleset as Philistines…the interesting thing is they seem to have come from Cyrenaica, known as Casluhim in its time. I’m seeing these Sea People as close to Egypt, not spread too far away, he knows their names and they are in collusion with Libya. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casluhim

He settled them in Philistia after their capture. They were Libyans. (Libyan Canaanites….= Cyclopean Pelasgians..?)
Because they also seem related to Mycenaeans…the Cyclopean buildings as the Pelasgians…..but many articles out there also espouse this, that Pelasgians came from Libya, bringing both Athena and Poseidon into Greece, via Crete….

Strange how the Sea People didn’t attack Athens either, only Peloponesian cities…maybe Athens wasn’t on the map then for trade…maybe the Athenians were allied with them too….so .allowed them, like PHoenicia to remain unscathed from the attacks and prosper after the event.

Plato makes comment that the Dorians were the men who came back from Troy, to their homes in Greece a mess, anarchy, fighting, disarray and no leadership had led the remaining  Hellenic, Pelasgic society into ruination. 
Id have to find the paragraph but it’s in The Laws I’m sure.

The Return of the Heraclidae…and why did the Dorian element (Re) settle Cyrenaica again, after leaving Thera after a famine, seems like these were ancestral,lands…

”In the Book of Genesis, the Philistines are said to descend from the Casluhites, an Egyptian people”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

Edited April 8 by The Puzzler

[docyabut2]

The Sea Peoples are a hypothesized seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions in the East The Sea Peoples are a hypothesized seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions in the East Mediterranean before and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200–900 BCE)before and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200–900 BCE)

they only go to the tyrrhenian sea 

but what about the  peoples of the West Mediterranean ?

 

Edited April 8 by docyabut2

[The Puzzler]

32 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

The Sea Peoples are a hypothesized seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions in the East The Sea Peoples are a hypothesized seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions in the East Mediterranean before and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200–900 BCE)before and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200–900 BCE)

they only go to the tyrrhenian sea 

but what about the  peoples of the West Mediterranean ?

 

I considered this a lot but the Egyptian Pharoahs know their names, they are close and allied with Libya at Cyrene…or East of Egypt, there seems to be no attack/migration from the West of there,  but closer to home.

If they ended up in Etruria wouldn’t surprise me though from the fallout, the migrations at this time.

Edited April 8 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

9 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Some mention the Peleset as Philistines…the interesting thing is they seem to have come from Cyrenaica, known as Casluhim in its time. 

Puzzler,

Your above statement is mistaken about the origin of the Philistines.  But before proposing anything specfic about Philistines, the following paper should be read carefully, because it lays the proper groundwork for speculating about the Egypt's Sea Peoples invasions from Libya.  Ramesses II built a mostly self-sufficient fortress (about 300 km west of the Nile delta) at Zawiyet Umm el-Rakham, which was the westernmost military unit of Ramesses II).  A nearby port was used to re-supply the ZUR fortress from Egypt. Unfortunately Egypt abandoned this (nearly self-sufficient) fortress to the Libyans, during the later part of the reign of Ramesses II. 

Some common sense speculation, beyond what is specified in the following paper, is that some naval pirates of the Sea Peoples would have gained control of the nearby (undefended) port city and formed an alliance with the Libyans who seized the substantial fortress at Zawiyet Umm el-Rakham.  

https://www.ancientportsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/PLACES/Egypt-Libya/Egypt-Snape2013.pdf

This paper, titled A Stroll along the Corniche, begins on frame 8 of the above link.

Steven Snape

Abstract

The subject of this paper is the range of potential mechanisms for travel along the Mediterranean coast, from the western edge of the Nile Delta towards Cyrenaica. More specifically, it is concerned with the ways in which travel along this stretch of coast in the period from c. 1300–1150 BC may have been affected by the presence of Zawiyet Umm el-Rakham, an Egyptian fortress-town 300 km west of the Nile Delta, founded (and probably abandoned) during the reign of Ramesses II. The problems of transit through the region will be examined, especially the nature of the supply-chain for the large Zawiyet Umm el-Rakham garrison, and Egyptian evidence relating to the question of the possible mass-migration along the Marmarican coast of Libyan groups during the Ramesside Period.

Edited April 8 by atalante

[docyabut2]

 

but  the colonies were out west

https://www.worldhistory.org/Phoenician_Colonization/

 

[docyabut2]

On 4/7/2023 at 8:26 AM, The Puzzler said:

These hats?

Interesting to note, the men literally look the same as the ones with Egyptian styled hairpieces…then there is the same attired men with helmets with horns…

What peoples have that helmet ? 

Edited April 8 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

this one?

Edited April 9 by docyabut2

[The Puzzler]

17 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

 

but  the colonies were out west

https://www.worldhistory.org/Phoenician_Colonization/

 

I think the Sea People made way for the Phoenicians to colonise the Western Med.

[The Puzzler]

16 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

What peoples have that helmet ? 

I can’t find the link but will research…apparently Philistines have it but also many other cultures.

So, the article was about how we can’t pinpoint that particular one to the Philistines, so maybe you’re right 

[docyabut2]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

I can’t find the link but will research…apparently Philistines have it but also many other cultures.

So, the article was about how we can’t pinpoint that particular one to the Philistines, so maybe you’re right 

 Go to Ancient men head dresses in Africa 

 

Edited April 9 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

https://medium.com/the-bronze-age/intro-to-the-armour-of-the-sea-peoples-part-1-b35144d3f099

 

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS631US633&q=helmets+of+the+sea+peoples&tbm=isch&source=univ&fir=0NnjtX5cxY2JvM%2CvmmjDQ6Fq0K5oM%2C_%3BKL5dPoNyp8BQMM%2CSN0h7i4tMxx1AM%2C_%3B4rVvqrQmIuAa2M%2CoMW131mexNyJWM%2C_%3Bc6iXhrEbJIVwsM%2CLUBkUbh4h_x3lM%2C_%3B0I-2hGjjj02ApM%2CMdCWoTg6nWUDLM%2C_%3BPhFP4sfo_IZLnM%2Ctouu84JelJ4PuM%2C_%3BsowofP3LxLOiiM%2CABteQNxDgxIACM%2C_%3B9w-wvntPTFFxrM%2CMlT7r2ZKKM6GfM%2C_%3BMzyg_36aYIyM1M%2CDMr54uudNUUq8M%2C_%3BwarB1dMkQmWQPM%2CtKsr_8SdmyHB6M%2C_&usg=AI4_-kS9Bb8DY7KCAtr2_57n5hCmauNdzg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_r4Ha7J3-AhU9BzQIHbCICR8QjJkEegQIPBAC&biw=1344&bih=654&dpr=1.25

Edited April 9 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:49 AM, docyabut2 said:

What peoples have that helmet ? 

  and men with helmets with the horns? are they the Tyrrhenians ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

Edited April 11 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

 

Tyrrhenias

 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/iconic-viking-horned-helmets-actually-3000-years-old-180979339/

where the vikings got those  helmets with the horns?

The Horned Helmets Falsely Attributed to Vikings Are Actually Nearly 3,000 Years Old

 

 

Edited April 11 by docyabut2

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

 

Tyrrhenias

 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/iconic-viking-horned-helmets-actually-3000-years-old-180979339/

where the vikings got those  helmets with the horns?

The Horned Helmets Falsely Attributed to Vikings Are Actually Nearly 3,000 Years Old

 

 

It were the ancient Sardinians who had horned helmets. They were (very probably) also known as the Shardana/Sherden. Some of them were hired by the Egyptians, others fought against the Egyptians.

And they wore these helmets long before 3000 BP.

[docyabut2]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

It were the ancient Sardinians who had horned helmets. They were (very probably) also known as the Shardana/Sherden. Some of them were hired by the Egyptians, others fought against the Egyptians.

And they wore these helmets long before 3000 BP.

 Didn't the Tyrrhenians have the  helmets with the horns?

 

It has been hypothesised that the Teresh, who appear among other Sea Peoples in a number of Ancient

Egyptian inscriptions from 1200 to 1150 BC, may be the same people as the Tyrsenians.

^{[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians}

Edited April 11 by docyabut2

[Abramelin]

6 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

 

Tyrrhenias

 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/iconic-viking-horned-helmets-actually-3000-years-old-180979339/

where the vikings got those  helmets with the horns?

The Horned Helmets Falsely Attributed to Vikings Are Actually Nearly 3,000 Years Old

 

 

Quote from your link:

“Even if you assume seafarers went directly from Sardinia to Scandinavia, they must have stopped along the way,” he says.

"“The horned warriors in Scandinavia, Sardinia and Spain all associate with new political regimes backed by control of metals and new religious beliefs,” Vandkilde tells CNN."

Edited April 11 by Abramelin

[docyabut2]

It seems the Phoenicians ruled the whole Mediterranean sea. 

[atalante]

On 4/9/2023 at 1:09 AM, The Puzzler said:

I think the Sea People made way for the Phoenicians to colonise the Western Med.

Puzzler,

Atlantipedia's Tony O'Connell shows a map that presumes Plato called the western Mediterranean Sea by the name Atlantic Sea.  By implication, the Phoenicians were able to colonize the southern shore of the western Med AFTER the Atlantis empire dissolved.  https://atlantipedia.ie/samples/atlantic-sea  (note:  Plato's Atlantis dialogues never use the name Atlantic OCEAN.)

 

 

 

Edited April 12 by atalante