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Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History


Abramelin

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It would entail this time period..

”and Tukulti-Ninurta I (r.c. 1243–1207 BC), under whom Assyria expanded to become the dominant power in Mesopotamia and the Near East, eclipsing rivals such as the Hittites, Egyptians, Hurrians, Mitanni, Elamites and their fellow Mesopotamian Babylonians. The reign of Tukulti-Ninurta I marked the height of the Middle Assyrian Empire and included the subjugation of Babylonia and the foundation of a new capital city, Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta, though it was abandoned after his death. Though Assyria was left largely unscathed by the direct effects of the Late Bronze Age collapseof the late 13th and early 12th century BC, the Middle Assyrian Empire began to experience a significant period of decline diring the mid to late 11th century BC. The assassination of Tukulti-Ninurta I c. 1207 BC led to inter-dynastic conflict and a significant but temporary drop in Assyrian power.

Even during its period of decline, Middle Assyrian kings continued to be assertive geopolitically and militarily; both Ashur-dan I (r.c. 1178–1133 BC) and Ashur-resh-ishi I (r. 1132–1115 BC) campaigned against Babylonia. Under Ashur-resh-ishi I's son and successor Tiglath-Pileser I(r.1114–1076 BC), the Middle Assyrian Empire experienced a period of resurgence, owing to wide-ranging campaigns and conquests. Tiglath-Pileser's armies marched as far from the Assyrian heartland as the Mediterranean, the Caucasus and Arabian Peninsula.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Assyrian_Empire

I will add>   “Under the warrior-kings Adad-nirari I (r.c. 1305–1274 BC), Shalmaneser I (r.c. 1273–1244 BC) and Tukulti-Ninurta I (r.c. 1243–1207 BC), Assyria began to realize its aspirations of becoming a significant regional power.[16] Though the other powers of the Ancient Near East, such as Egypt, the Hittites and Babylonia, had at first been reluctant to view the new Assyrian kingdom as their equal, from the time of Adad-nirari I onwards, when Assyria grew to take the place of Mitanni, its status as one of the major kingdoms became undeniable.

Edited by The Puzzler
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How bout this….no Sea People attacks occurred at all…? Just rehashing of older events used as propaganda for orderly Kingship…

Egyptian inscriptions were written to express the Egyptian world-view, not to record "what actually happened." For example, an inscription on the second pylon at Medinet Habu lists the city of Carchemish in Syria as destroyed by invaders, along with other Syrian cities such as Arwad. We know from textual and archaeological evidence from Carchemish, however, that Carchemish not only survived the end of the Bronze Age more or less intact but thrived after the collapse of the Hittite Empire, with an unbroken royal line descended from the Hittite Great Kings of the Late Bronze Age.

The Egyptians were no doubt perfectly well aware of this, but they were not concerned with creating a faithful list of conquests and ensuring an accurate list of destroyed cities for future historians. The impact of the list was what mattered. A king who had (allegedly) defeated a confederation of enemies so powerful that they had destroyed the majority of the ancient Near East was a very mighty king indeed!

To use a different example from Egypt, the Libyan battle reliefs from Taharqa's temple at Kawa in Sudan are direct copies of Old Kingdom battles scenes like those from the mortuary temple of Sahure at Abusir, created nearly 1800 years earlier. Even the names of the three defeated Libyans were recycled. This doesn't mean that Taharqa was trying to bamboozle people into thinking he had defeated Libyan forces when he hadn't; rather, the reliefs are simply a timeless expression of the king's role as protector of Egypt and his obligation to bring forth order from chaos.

The melodramatic inscriptions recounting hordes of Sea Peoples invading Egypt are classic examples of the Egyptian fondness for compressing events that took place over years or even decades into a single climactic showdown for dramatic effect. Was there ever a huge battle between Ramesses III and a confederation of sea-faring groups? Highly doubtful. As Barbara Cifola put it in "Ramses III and the Sea Peoples: A Structural Analysis of the Medinet Habu Inscriptions,"

All this leads us to think that the encounter related in the text of year 8 is probably nothing but the narrative condensation of a continuous long-lasting process, consisting of small skirmishes and rebuffs of repeated attempts at assault and penetration, into a single great military event to serve a precise propagandistic purpose...”

 

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17 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

How bout this….no Sea People attacks occurred at all…

That's what I quoted from the Historum site, weeks ago.

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So….everything becomes redundant I guess.

 

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It agrees with what I was saying about internal stresses and rebellions that bought these cultures down…

”Where civil unrest sparked a revolution”.. is the sub title.

Spain, in point here, maybe the beginning of the end…combined with all cultures on a decline at one point in time,  famine, loss of crops, aggressive disruption of a weak authority…Egypt, Hatti, Mycenaean Greece, the Cyclades and the rise of others, Rome, Phoenicia, Assyria…maybe nothing but it’s own self, self destructed.

 

 

DCAC7F3C-04AB-4271-815D-8AD134049144.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

That's what I quoted from the Historum site, weeks ago.

 

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17 hours ago, Abramelin said:

 

This took me to your first post…

Maybe the Phoenicians were not in the firing line because there were no Sea People attacks…maybe Phoenicia suffered no internal strife at the time, which was able to sustain their rise after the breakdown of surrounding civilisations…

Its probably not a co-incidence but a natural progression….of the people who didn’t fall, survived and became stronger. 
…and Ive also said previously I don’t Phoenicians were a big deal at the time of 1200-1100BC. It wasn’t until all this fallout subsided we see their true rise. Just like Rome, rising out of the ashes.

“I started this thread because I have always wondered why the Phoenician cities remained out of harms way during the invasion of the (Land and) Sea Peoples around 1200 bce.

Whatever did they do to protect themselves from the invasion?

Or did they participate in the invasion? I don't think so.

Did they pay the invaders?

What?

Just this: the Phoenicians became the rulers of the Mediterranean sea right after the defeat of the Sea Peoples by the Egyptians.

That can't be a coincidence, right?”

 

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We do have the attack  on Troy, to consider, it too could be an older story, propaganda, seems like Rome and others took this up wholeheartedly…we do have records of Ugarit for example, telling us ships were attacking them…putting ruin to their city…Assyria, like Phoenicia rose after the downfall of the main civilisations at the time…so we have what appears to be real records of invasions and burnings of cities but at the same time, we also could concede, nothing of this type of invasion occurred…quite a conundrum.

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14 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

This took me to your first post…

Maybe the Phoenicians were not in the firing line because there were no Sea People attacks…maybe Phoenicia suffered no internal strife at the time, which was able to sustain their rise after the breakdown of surrounding civilisations…

Its probably not a co-incidence but a natural progression….of the people who didn’t fall, survived and became stronger. 
…and Ive also said previously I don’t Phoenicians were a big deal at the time of 1200-1100BC. It wasn’t until all this fallout subsided we see their true rise. Just like Rome, rising out of the ashes.

 

“I started this thread because I have always wondered why the Phoenician cities remained out of harms way during the invasion of the (Land and) Sea Peoples around 1200 bce.

Whatever did they do to protect themselves from the invasion?

Or did they participate in the invasion? I don't think so.

Did they pay the invaders?

What?

Just this: the Phoenicians became the rulers of the Mediterranean sea right after the defeat of the Sea Peoples by the Egyptians.

That can't be a coincidence, right?”

 

Maybe the cause of their rise was caused by the plagues, earthquakes, droughts, and other sht happening around 1200 BCE?

That these events did happen is quite certain.

The 'Sea Peoples' may have been nothing but an invention of some boasting Egyptian ruler to make himself greater than life.

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54 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

 

The 'Sea Peoples' may have been nothing but an invention of some boasting Egyptian ruler to make himself greater than life.

That wouldn’t surprise me at all. When it came to certain events being recorded in Egypt, propaganda was favored over historical accuracy. It was still going on after the Persian invasion of Egypt when it was ruled by foreign conquerors. Egyptian collaborators within the newly established regime recorded biased versions of events to gain favor with their occupiers.

A good example of this is described in an article by Alan B. Lloyd called The Inscription of Udjahorresnet: A Collaborator’s Testimony. I can’t link to it but it’s in the 1982 centenary issue of the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, Volume 68, pp. 166-180. You can find it on JSTOR too. 

Edited by Antigonos
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  • 1 month later...

Here is Greg Mumford's 2019 powerpoint discussion about what happened in the eastern Mediterranean region, during 2000 BCE until the 1200 BCE time of the Sea Peoples. 

https://www.academia.edu/39656273/PPT_PRESENTATION_The_Archaeology_of_the_East_Mediterranean_mainly_Ancient_Greece_and_Turkey_Anatolia_spanning_Middle_Bronze_Age_through_Late_Bronze_Age_ca_2000_1200_BCE_Minoans_Myceaneans_Troy_Hittites_and_Sea_Peoples_by_G_Mumford_108_slides_

 

 

 

Edited by atalante
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On 5/9/2023 at 6:29 PM, Abramelin said:

Some may wonder what this is all about.

This 1200 BCE thing could explain all the mayhem and wars in Europe and the Middle East during that time, and the rise of the socalled Sea Peoples.

What was this 1200 BCE thing? A plague? Earthquakes? An impact of an asteroid or comet?

An interesting - and long - read of what caused the end of the Bronze Age:

How Disease Affected the End of the Bronze Age

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7123324/

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On 1/12/2024 at 5:39 AM, Abramelin said:

An interesting - and long - read of what caused the end of the Bronze Age:

How Disease Affected the End of the Bronze Age

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7123324/

The disease angle seems important; and more important than I previously suspected.  An earthquake storm 1200-1150 BCE would likely have been followed by disease outbreaks; because some surving individuals would drink contaminated water - and then spread diseases.  

Among Phoenican cities -- Mumford's power point discussion shows that at least one major Phoenician city (Byblos) was sacked.   103-68904861a2.jpg

 

Edited by atalante
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/20/2023 at 8:57 PM, Abramelin said:

Geologists' observations in a number of areas indicate that a huge wave overcame Europe. The West Coast of Germany was flooded by such an enormous wave that banks of silt were created that today stretch 25 kilometers (15.5 miles) and up to 10 meters high (35 feet), even after more than 3,000 years of weathering. On the south coast of the North Sea another excavation disclosed what remained of a "catastrophe of annihilating force": "With all its violent power, the North Sea [struck so hard] that trees were laid flat by the first rush of the water. The tops of these uprooted trees always point to the east, which supports the assumption that the catastrophe was caused by a storm from the west."

Also about 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) below the waves near the island of Memmert, ancient dryland was discovered. There, underwater, and in addition to other things, "the hoof marks of cattle and horses were also visible and wagon tracks [were] clearly marked in the soil." Certainly, these had been covered quickly or they would not have lasted, which suggests more than merely "a storm." This event was one of the factors that sent masses of people (including the Sea People) migrating, or more accurately, fleeing for their lives.

I think I found the source of the quoted text:

Dodo Wildvang

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_Wildvang

"Eine prähistorische Katastrophe an der deutschen Nordseeküste und ihr Einfluß auf die spätere Gestaltung der Alluviallandschaft zwischen der Ley und dem Dollart, Emden und Borkum, Haynel 1911"

Translation:

"A prehistoric catastrophe on the German North Sea coast and its influence on the later design of the alluvial landscape between the Ley and the Dollart, Emden and Borkum, Haynel 1911"

----------

https://silo.tips/download/article-in-press-quaternary-international-112-2004-37-53

 

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So, maybe it was…just like God said it would be…the last words of the Old Testament. Malachi…lest I come and smite the land  with a curse…

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/bronze-age-collapse-0017124

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1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

So, maybe it was…just like God said it would be…the last words of the Old Testament. Malachi…lest I come and smite the land  with a curse…

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/bronze-age-collapse-0017124

The author of Malachi might have been referring to that... or just generally making a dire pronouncement of the kind popular at the time.  The book seems to have been composed after 600 BC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi#Period

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2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

The author of Malachi might have been referring to that... or just generally making a dire pronouncement of the kind popular at the time.  The book seems to have been composed after 600 BChttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi#Period

And even much later than that if we go by the following from your link:

Quote

Because of the development of themes in the book of Malachi, most scholars assign it to a position after the Book of Haggai and the Book of Zechariah,[14][15] close to the time when Ezra and Nehemiah[15] came to Jerusalem in 445 BC.[16]

cormac

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It doesn’t matter when that particular entry was added, the real point is God was smiting everyone with plagues of some kind. 
Did any of you even read Abe’s link? Let alone mine…

These three responses don’t discount that plagues were occurring and they are mentioned everywhere if you look hard enough.

There is so many mentions of plagues in ancient times, and plague Gods, sending the plagues or healing them, not just God but Apollo for example, it’s now hard to see it would be anything else that could create a sociological dilemma as occurred.

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13 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Its was a old copy right :) 

means if you add anything or take away anything you get a curse :)

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The song of Deborah is a very early poem that is embedded in the bible.  Research indicates that the "song of Deborah" was likely about a battle that defeated the Shardana (who were one of the Sea Peoples), ca 1170 BCE.  

 

https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-opinion-guest-authors/identifying-ancient-battle-and-dating-song-deborah-001858  

Did the Song of Deborah mark the defeat of the Shardana, led by Sisera and either force them to evacuate el-Ahwat or disappear completely from the region? If this did mark the defeat of the Shardana from el-Ahwat, then can we date this poem to 1170 BCE? The orthographical (i.e. spelling) studies of Frank Moore Cross and David Noel Freedman to even the research of William Foxwell Albright place the style of poetry to no later than 1100 BCE and with a date of 1170 BCE for the actual battle, it would seem like a probable date of composition.

Edited by atalante
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What was the great catastrophe 1200 BC?
 
 
Late Bronze Age collapse - Wikipedia
 
The Late Bronze Age collapse was a time of widespread societal collapse during the 12th century BC, between c. 1200 and 1150, and was associated with environmental change, mass migration and destruction of cities.
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13 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

means if you add anything or take away anything you get a curse :)

That might be true…

The link Abe showed talked bout the Philistines taking the Ark of the Covenant, then suffering from a disease, a smite from God, so they loaded it onto a cart and sent it back to Israel…but God even, inflicted his own people, who had “seen the Ark”, being returned in the field and surrounds…seemingly meaning to me, the Ark is the curse, yes, it’s the vessel that contains the smiting from God himself, if abused.
The surrounding 20,000 Israelites probably died naturally from a disease that was indeed passed on by the Philistines, whether by the cattle they sent the Ark back in…. but in religious eyes, it was a very powerful moment in the rise of the Jewish people, to get the Ark of the Covenant back. Disrespect of the Ark (ie; icon of any Gods laws) will get you a good smiting from whatever God you choose. Choosing yourself no God just means you have to smite yourself. 

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8 hours ago, docyabut2 said:
What was the great catastrophe 1200 BC?
 
 
Late Bronze Age collapse - Wikipedia
 
The Late Bronze Age collapse was a time of widespread societal collapse during the 12th century BC, between c. 1200 and 1150, and was associated with environmental change, mass migration and destruction of cities.

I know, 2000 posts later, I’m still on the same basic question…maybe a combo of them all for sure but the diseases thing must have been there too. But most disease does occur once a breakdown happens first, things get filthy, unsanitized, destabilised, over populated, many factors create virus spreads, so yeah, something else does seem to have been the cause to create that effect.

Edited by The Puzzler
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