Abramelin Posted November 24, 2023 Author #2301 Share Posted November 24, 2023 17 hours ago, The Puzzler said: How bout this….no Sea People attacks occurred at all… That's what I quoted from the Historum site, weeks ago. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 24, 2023 #2302 Share Posted November 24, 2023 So….everything becomes redundant I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 24, 2023 #2303 Share Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) It agrees with what I was saying about internal stresses and rebellions that bought these cultures down… ”Where civil unrest sparked a revolution”.. is the sub title. Spain, in point here, maybe the beginning of the end…combined with all cultures on a decline at one point in time, famine, loss of crops, aggressive disruption of a weak authority…Egypt, Hatti, Mycenaean Greece, the Cyclades and the rise of others, Rome, Phoenicia, Assyria…maybe nothing but it’s own self, self destructed. Edited November 24, 2023 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 24, 2023 Author #2304 Share Posted November 24, 2023 2 hours ago, Abramelin said: That's what I quoted from the Historum site, weeks ago. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 25, 2023 #2305 Share Posted November 25, 2023 17 hours ago, Abramelin said: This took me to your first post… Maybe the Phoenicians were not in the firing line because there were no Sea People attacks…maybe Phoenicia suffered no internal strife at the time, which was able to sustain their rise after the breakdown of surrounding civilisations… Its probably not a co-incidence but a natural progression….of the people who didn’t fall, survived and became stronger. …and Ive also said previously I don’t Phoenicians were a big deal at the time of 1200-1100BC. It wasn’t until all this fallout subsided we see their true rise. Just like Rome, rising out of the ashes. “I started this thread because I have always wondered why the Phoenician cities remained out of harms way during the invasion of the (Land and) Sea Peoples around 1200 bce. Whatever did they do to protect themselves from the invasion? Or did they participate in the invasion? I don't think so. Did they pay the invaders? What? Just this: the Phoenicians became the rulers of the Mediterranean sea right after the defeat of the Sea Peoples by the Egyptians. That can't be a coincidence, right?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 25, 2023 #2306 Share Posted November 25, 2023 We do have the attack on Troy, to consider, it too could be an older story, propaganda, seems like Rome and others took this up wholeheartedly…we do have records of Ugarit for example, telling us ships were attacking them…putting ruin to their city…Assyria, like Phoenicia rose after the downfall of the main civilisations at the time…so we have what appears to be real records of invasions and burnings of cities but at the same time, we also could concede, nothing of this type of invasion occurred…quite a conundrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 25, 2023 Author #2307 Share Posted November 25, 2023 14 hours ago, The Puzzler said: This took me to your first post… Maybe the Phoenicians were not in the firing line because there were no Sea People attacks…maybe Phoenicia suffered no internal strife at the time, which was able to sustain their rise after the breakdown of surrounding civilisations… Its probably not a co-incidence but a natural progression….of the people who didn’t fall, survived and became stronger. …and Ive also said previously I don’t Phoenicians were a big deal at the time of 1200-1100BC. It wasn’t until all this fallout subsided we see their true rise. Just like Rome, rising out of the ashes. “I started this thread because I have always wondered why the Phoenician cities remained out of harms way during the invasion of the (Land and) Sea Peoples around 1200 bce. Whatever did they do to protect themselves from the invasion? Or did they participate in the invasion? I don't think so. Did they pay the invaders? What? Just this: the Phoenicians became the rulers of the Mediterranean sea right after the defeat of the Sea Peoples by the Egyptians. That can't be a coincidence, right?” Maybe the cause of their rise was caused by the plagues, earthquakes, droughts, and other sht happening around 1200 BCE? That these events did happen is quite certain. The 'Sea Peoples' may have been nothing but an invention of some boasting Egyptian ruler to make himself greater than life. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted November 25, 2023 #2308 Share Posted November 25, 2023 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Abramelin said: The 'Sea Peoples' may have been nothing but an invention of some boasting Egyptian ruler to make himself greater than life. That wouldn’t surprise me at all. When it came to certain events being recorded in Egypt, propaganda was favored over historical accuracy. It was still going on after the Persian invasion of Egypt when it was ruled by foreign conquerors. Egyptian collaborators within the newly established regime recorded biased versions of events to gain favor with their occupiers. A good example of this is described in an article by Alan B. Lloyd called The Inscription of Udjahorresnet: A Collaborator’s Testimony. I can’t link to it but it’s in the 1982 centenary issue of the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, Volume 68, pp. 166-180. You can find it on JSTOR too. Edited November 25, 2023 by Antigonos 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalante Posted January 10, 2024 #2309 Share Posted January 10, 2024 (edited) Here is Greg Mumford's 2019 powerpoint discussion about what happened in the eastern Mediterranean region, during 2000 BCE until the 1200 BCE time of the Sea Peoples. https://www.academia.edu/39656273/PPT_PRESENTATION_The_Archaeology_of_the_East_Mediterranean_mainly_Ancient_Greece_and_Turkey_Anatolia_spanning_Middle_Bronze_Age_through_Late_Bronze_Age_ca_2000_1200_BCE_Minoans_Myceaneans_Troy_Hittites_and_Sea_Peoples_by_G_Mumford_108_slides_ Edited January 10, 2024 by atalante 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 12, 2024 Author #2310 Share Posted January 12, 2024 On 5/9/2023 at 6:29 PM, Abramelin said: Some may wonder what this is all about. This 1200 BCE thing could explain all the mayhem and wars in Europe and the Middle East during that time, and the rise of the socalled Sea Peoples. What was this 1200 BCE thing? A plague? Earthquakes? An impact of an asteroid or comet? An interesting - and long - read of what caused the end of the Bronze Age: How Disease Affected the End of the Bronze Age https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7123324/ 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalante Posted January 13, 2024 #2311 Share Posted January 13, 2024 (edited) On 1/12/2024 at 5:39 AM, Abramelin said: An interesting - and long - read of what caused the end of the Bronze Age: How Disease Affected the End of the Bronze Age https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7123324/ The disease angle seems important; and more important than I previously suspected. An earthquake storm 1200-1150 BCE would likely have been followed by disease outbreaks; because some surving individuals would drink contaminated water - and then spread diseases. Among Phoenican cities -- Mumford's power point discussion shows that at least one major Phoenician city (Byblos) was sacked. Edited January 13, 2024 by atalante 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 21, 2024 Author #2312 Share Posted January 21, 2024 On 10/20/2023 at 8:57 PM, Abramelin said: Geologists' observations in a number of areas indicate that a huge wave overcame Europe. The West Coast of Germany was flooded by such an enormous wave that banks of silt were created that today stretch 25 kilometers (15.5 miles) and up to 10 meters high (35 feet), even after more than 3,000 years of weathering. On the south coast of the North Sea another excavation disclosed what remained of a "catastrophe of annihilating force": "With all its violent power, the North Sea [struck so hard] that trees were laid flat by the first rush of the water. The tops of these uprooted trees always point to the east, which supports the assumption that the catastrophe was caused by a storm from the west." Also about 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) below the waves near the island of Memmert, ancient dryland was discovered. There, underwater, and in addition to other things, "the hoof marks of cattle and horses were also visible and wagon tracks [were] clearly marked in the soil." Certainly, these had been covered quickly or they would not have lasted, which suggests more than merely "a storm." This event was one of the factors that sent masses of people (including the Sea People) migrating, or more accurately, fleeing for their lives. I think I found the source of the quoted text: Dodo Wildvang https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_Wildvang "Eine prähistorische Katastrophe an der deutschen Nordseeküste und ihr Einfluß auf die spätere Gestaltung der Alluviallandschaft zwischen der Ley und dem Dollart, Emden und Borkum, Haynel 1911" Translation: "A prehistoric catastrophe on the German North Sea coast and its influence on the later design of the alluvial landscape between the Ley and the Dollart, Emden and Borkum, Haynel 1911" ---------- https://silo.tips/download/article-in-press-quaternary-international-112-2004-37-53 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 23, 2024 #2313 Share Posted January 23, 2024 (edited) So, maybe it was…just like God said it would be…the last words of the Old Testament. Malachi…lest I come and smite the land with a curse… https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/bronze-age-collapse-0017124 Edited January 23, 2024 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted January 23, 2024 #2314 Share Posted January 23, 2024 1 hour ago, The Puzzler said: So, maybe it was…just like God said it would be…the last words of the Old Testament. Malachi…lest I come and smite the land with a curse… https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/bronze-age-collapse-0017124 The author of Malachi might have been referring to that... or just generally making a dire pronouncement of the kind popular at the time. The book seems to have been composed after 600 BC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi#Period 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 23, 2024 #2315 Share Posted January 23, 2024 2 hours ago, Kenemet said: The author of Malachi might have been referring to that... or just generally making a dire pronouncement of the kind popular at the time. The book seems to have been composed after 600 BC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi#Period And even much later than that if we go by the following from your link: Quote Because of the development of themes in the book of Malachi, most scholars assign it to a position after the Book of Haggai and the Book of Zechariah,[14][15] close to the time when Ezra and Nehemiah[15] came to Jerusalem in 445 BC.[16] cormac 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted January 24, 2024 #2316 Share Posted January 24, 2024 9 hours ago, The Puzzler said: So, maybe it was…just like God said it would be…the last words of the Old Testament. Malachi…lest I come and smite the land with a curse… https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/bronze-age-collapse-0017124 Its was a old copy right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 24, 2024 #2317 Share Posted January 24, 2024 (edited) It doesn’t matter when that particular entry was added, the real point is God was smiting everyone with plagues of some kind. Did any of you even read Abe’s link? Let alone mine… These three responses don’t discount that plagues were occurring and they are mentioned everywhere if you look hard enough. There is so many mentions of plagues in ancient times, and plague Gods, sending the plagues or healing them, not just God but Apollo for example, it’s now hard to see it would be anything else that could create a sociological dilemma as occurred. Edited January 24, 2024 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted January 24, 2024 #2318 Share Posted January 24, 2024 13 hours ago, docyabut2 said: Its was a old copy right means if you add anything or take away anything you get a curse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalante Posted January 24, 2024 #2319 Share Posted January 24, 2024 (edited) The song of Deborah is a very early poem that is embedded in the bible. Research indicates that the "song of Deborah" was likely about a battle that defeated the Shardana (who were one of the Sea Peoples), ca 1170 BCE. https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-opinion-guest-authors/identifying-ancient-battle-and-dating-song-deborah-001858 Did the Song of Deborah mark the defeat of the Shardana, led by Sisera and either force them to evacuate el-Ahwat or disappear completely from the region? If this did mark the defeat of the Shardana from el-Ahwat, then can we date this poem to 1170 BCE? The orthographical (i.e. spelling) studies of Frank Moore Cross and David Noel Freedman to even the research of William Foxwell Albright place the style of poetry to no later than 1100 BCE and with a date of 1170 BCE for the actual battle, it would seem like a probable date of composition. Edited January 24, 2024 by atalante 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted January 24, 2024 #2320 Share Posted January 24, 2024 The resulting tidal wave could have inundated the low coastal lands of ... 1200 B.C.. Dr. Goedicke said that he expected such criticism? https://www.nytimes.com/1981/05/04/us/theory-ties-exodus-flood-to-tidal-wave.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted January 24, 2024 #2321 Share Posted January 24, 2024 What was the great catastrophe 1200 BC? The Late Bronze Age collapse was a time of widespread societal collapse during the 12th century BC, between c. 1200 and 1150, and was associated with environmental change, mass migration and destruction of cities. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 25, 2024 #2322 Share Posted January 25, 2024 (edited) 13 hours ago, docyabut2 said: means if you add anything or take away anything you get a curse That might be true… The link Abe showed talked bout the Philistines taking the Ark of the Covenant, then suffering from a disease, a smite from God, so they loaded it onto a cart and sent it back to Israel…but God even, inflicted his own people, who had “seen the Ark”, being returned in the field and surrounds…seemingly meaning to me, the Ark is the curse, yes, it’s the vessel that contains the smiting from God himself, if abused. The surrounding 20,000 Israelites probably died naturally from a disease that was indeed passed on by the Philistines, whether by the cattle they sent the Ark back in…. but in religious eyes, it was a very powerful moment in the rise of the Jewish people, to get the Ark of the Covenant back. Disrespect of the Ark (ie; icon of any Gods laws) will get you a good smiting from whatever God you choose. Choosing yourself no God just means you have to smite yourself. Edited January 25, 2024 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 25, 2024 #2323 Share Posted January 25, 2024 (edited) 8 hours ago, docyabut2 said: What was the great catastrophe 1200 BC? The Late Bronze Age collapse was a time of widespread societal collapse during the 12th century BC, between c. 1200 and 1150, and was associated with environmental change, mass migration and destruction of cities. I know, 2000 posts later, I’m still on the same basic question…maybe a combo of them all for sure but the diseases thing must have been there too. But most disease does occur once a breakdown happens first, things get filthy, unsanitized, destabilised, over populated, many factors create virus spreads, so yeah, something else does seem to have been the cause to create that effect. Edited January 25, 2024 by The Puzzler 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted January 25, 2024 #2324 Share Posted January 25, 2024 (edited) A tidal wave could have hit the mediterranean and caused the sea people. The resulting tidal wave could have inundated the low coastal lands of ... 1200 B.C Edited January 25, 2024 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted January 25, 2024 #2325 Share Posted January 25, 2024 Could it mean a tidal wave hit them ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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