Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Uhm... no, I don't think the Phoenicians were part of the Sea Peoples. It was Puzzler who thought they were.

I don’t think the Phoenicians were even around at the time of the Sea People…remember?

However I wouldn’t discount the areas of Byblos and all of the coastal areas of later “Phoenicia”….as being part of a Sea People confederation at the time (c.1150BC)

 

 

Edited February 7 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The Sea People all have the same skirt design, they all have the same boat…it says to me they were all one really, just different contingents…hence the different helmets…each were given the same equipment and were of the same cultural (Mediterranean/Egyptian fashion) from some common source.

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I don’t think the Phoenicians were even around at the time of the Sea People…remember?

Yep, I remember. I also remember saying the Phoenicians wère around, but just not by the name the Greeks gave them later on.

History didn't start with the Greek naming things...

8 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

However I wouldn’t discount the areas of Byblos and all of the coastal areas of later “Phoenicia”….as being part of a Sea People confederation at the time (c.1150BC)

There you go: those who were later called Phoenicians by the Greeks were possibly part of the Sea Peoples according to you.

And my reply was: the people called Phoenicians by the Greeks were trading partners with Egypt from about 3,000 BCE. It's not likely they would bite the hand that fed them.

And later on you replied by saying these Phoenicians who weren't called Phoenicians back then tried to get even with the Egyptians because these Egyptians once attacked one of their cities, a city I forgot the name of.

Edited February 7 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

31 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Yep, I remember. I also remember saying the Phoenicians wère around, but just not by the name the Greeks gave them later on.

History didn't start with the Greek naming things...

There you go: those who were later called Phoenicians by the Greeks were possibly part of the Sea Peoples according to you.

And my reply was: the people called Phoenicians by the Greeks were trading partners with Egypt from about 3,000 BCE. It's not likely they would bite the hand that fed them.

And later on you replied by saying these Phoenicians who weren't called Phoenicians back then tried to get even with the Egyptians because these Egyptians once attacked one of their cities, a city I forgot the name of.

As a Canaanite people those later called Phoenicians would have been around since circa 3500 BC, so yeah they predated the Sea People in that regard. 
 

cormac

[docyabut2]

I dont think the sea people went into the seas were for a war or a tradeings  they just wanted land to surive  

Edited February 7 by docyabut2

[Abramelin]

11 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I dont think the sea people went into the seas were for a war or a tradeings  they just wanted land to surive  

This had nothing to do with trade, according to me.

Some tribes of the north of Europe fled from some disaster, and went south and east.

They battled against tribes they met (Tollense for instance) and thèse tribes they fought against also fled south and east.

I think it was kind of a domino effect.

The famine and plagues that have been mentioned in this thread were not a cause, but a result of these mass migrations.

People were desparately looking for a new home, and/or conquer those who they assumed/knew of had riches like food and land.

[Abramelin]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:04 PM, Abramelin said:

This had nothing to do with trade, according to me.

Some tribes of the north of Europe fled from some disaster, and went south and east.

They battled against tribes they met (Tollense for instance) and thèse tribes they fought against also fled south and east.

I think it was kind of a domino effect.

The famine and plagues that have been mentioned in this thread were not a cause, but a result of these mass migrations.

People were desparately looking for a new home, and/or conquer those who they assumed/knew of had riches like food and land.

What caused people to move from (Northern) Europe around 1,300 BCE?

Post #229 of the Doggerland thread (Elsewhere in Europe) :

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/179840-doggerland/page/10/#comment-3342971

 

[atalante]

On 2/7/2024 at 2:04 PM, Abramelin said:

People were desparately looking for a new home, and/or conquer those who they assumed/knew of had riches like food and land. 

Also important along this same line of reasoning ---- to raid peoples who had a severe shortage of bronze materials. 

I have mentioned this before, in regard to Egypt's notorious Sea Peoples (ca 1220-1170 BCE): 

a)  Cyprus had become the dominant supplier of smelted copper by 1300 BCE to the entire eastern Mediterranean region;

and b)  the long severe drought  ca 1220-1150 CE caused Cyprus to experience a shortage of both trees and water, which are needed to smelt copper;

so c)  the output of smelted copper on Cyprus declined sharply during 1220-1150 BCE.    

Consequently, the eastern Mediterranean region ca 1220-1150 BCE had many communities that could no longer defend their own Bronze Age militant lifestyles.  The result (of copper/bronze shortages throughout eastern Med) was like a magnet that attracted migration of various outsider-groups into the eastern Med -- some groups who had enough bronze weapons raided places to take loot; and other groups who had enough bronze weapons agreed to work as mercenary defenders of some communities.  Eventually a general systems collapse occurred.        

Edited February 9 by atalante

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, atalante said:

Also important along this same line of reasoning ---- to raid peoples who had a severe shortage of bronze materials. 

I have mentioned this before, in regard to Egypt's notorious Sea Peoples (ca 1220-1170 BCE): 

a)  Cyprus had become the dominant supplier of smelted copper by 1300 BCE to the entire eastern Mediterranean region;

and b)  the long severe drought  ca 1220-1150 CE caused Cyprus to experience a shortage of both trees and water, which are needed to smelt copper;

so c)  the output of smelted copper on Cyprus declined sharply during 1220-1150 BCE.    

Consequently, the eastern Mediterranean region ca 1220-1150 BCE had many communities that could no longer defend their own Bronze Age militant lifestyles.  The result (of copper/bronze shortages throughout eastern Med) was like a magnet that attracted migration of various outsider-groups into the eastern Med -- some groups who had enough bronze weapons raided places to take loot; and other groups who had enough bronze weapons agreed to work as mercenary defenders of some communities.  Eventually a general systems collapse occurred.        

The Europeans, those who fled whatever had happened in the north, were not in need of copper from Crete or the Middle-East or Iran:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10171686/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_during_the_Copper_Age_in_Europe

https://academic.oup.com/book/40320/chapter-abstract/346876568?redirectedFrom=fulltext

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

The Europeans, those who fled whatever had happened in the north, were not in need of copper from Crete or the Middle-East or Iran:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10171686/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_during_the_Copper_Age_in_Europe

https://academic.oup.com/book/40320/chapter-abstract/346876568?redirectedFrom=fulltext

"Crete" should have been "Cyprus".

But I'd like to add this:

If the northeners fled south and east, without any shortage of copper to create their bronze weapons, they would encounter and fight those peoples further south, around the eastern Med, who wère short on copper to create their bronze weapons to defend themselves.

That's the domino effect I mentioned earlier: those peoples these northerners attacked had to flee from those northerners. They lacked the weapons to defend themselves because of a shortage of copper, and fled to countries they expected to - still - have enough copper.

And these countries, like Cyprus, hadn't.

 

The most important thing to consider for this thread is this: we hear about earthquakes, a huge disaster, droughts, famine and a plague. But we don't know which of these events came first because they occurred too close in time. We don't know the exact order of these events.

 

[Poncho_Peanatus]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:04 PM, Abramelin said:

This had nothing to do with trade, according to me.

Some tribes of the north of Europe fled from some disaster, and went south and east.

They battled against tribes they met (Tollense for instance) and thèse tribes they fought against also fled south and east.

I think it was kind of a domino effect.

The famine and plagues that have been mentioned in this thread were not a cause, but a result of these mass migrations.

People were desparately looking for a new home, and/or conquer those who they assumed/knew of had riches like food and land.

I think this may be interesting, it covers something similar

 

[Abramelin]

51 minutes ago, Poncho_Peanatus said:

I think this may be interesting, it covers something similar

 

Yes, another excellent video by Dan Davis. However, I think it has been posted before. Nevertheless, worth a second view.

[Abramelin]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:04 PM, Abramelin said:

Some tribes of the north of Europe fled from some disaster, and went south and east.

International Journal of Geosciences > Vol.11 No.10, October 2020

A Mega-Tsunami in the Baltic Sea 1171 BC: Geological Records with Special Reference to the Lake Mälaren Area in Sweden

(...)

The tsunami event is linked to seismic ground shaking and methane venting tectonics at several sites. The triggering factor is proposed to be the Kaali meteor impact in Estonia of the same age.

(...)

7. Conclusions

The tsunami records from Umeå, Hudiksvall, Forsmark, Upplands-Väsby, Saltsjöbaden, Åker, Södertörn, and Tystberga, all occurring at about 3000 BP, were in this paper put to a detailed test and analysis with respect to geology and archaeology in the Enköping-Bålsta area. The new data provide evidence that, indeed, the area was struck by a violent tsunami at about 3000 BP or about 1200 cal. yrs BC.

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=103896

Edited February 10 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

We've been discussing Mörner, one of the authors of the paper before..

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/360724-sea-peoples-and-the-phoenicians-a-critical-turning-point-in-history/page/26/#comment-7577569

Sigh... it already looked too good to be true.

 

[Abramelin]

@Doc Socks Junior

I understand you are a geologist.

What do you think about Mörner and his papers?

He may have been working towards a result to prove Ragnarök really happened, and/or that Jürgen Spanuth was right.

But despite that, was he wrong?

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=103095

[Abramelin]

Parts of the Kaali meteor were used in ancient Switzerland to create arrowheads:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001073?via%3Dihub

Mörner did not take part in this research

But does this indicate the trajectory of the Kaali meteor, or Kaalijarv as it is called in this paper?

According to a paper by Mörner et all, the next image shows 2 possible trajectories:

 

The ENE trajectory means, that part(s) of the meteor could have crashed into the North Sea, near the west coast of Denmark.

Or created the Grendel Crater just off the coast of southern Norway:

No one knows if this structure is even a crater, or how old it is.

Edited February 10 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

For those who've lost track: this intermezzo about comets, asteroids, impacts and such is about finding a cause for people of the north of Europe to go on the move to the south, and find a new and safe haven to settle.

And by trying to find this safe haven, these refugees encountered many who were not willing to give up their territory without a fight.

But lacking copper to make weapons, those being attacked by the people from the north had to flee.

And that would be to much further south, to the Med and the Middle East.

 

Edited February 10 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

11 hours ago, Abramelin said:

For those who've lost track: this intermezzo about comets, asteroids, impacts and such is about finding a cause for people of the north of Europe to go on the move to the south, and find a new and safe haven to settle.

And by trying to find this safe haven, these refugees encountered many who were not willing to give up their territory without a fight.

But lacking copper to make weapons, those being attacked by the people from the north had to flee.

And that would be to much further south, to the Med and the Middle East.

 

6 posts in a row…you may have even beaten my record…but the copper thing is interesting, the more You Tubes I watch, the more it seems a copper thing….the end of the Chalcolithic in some places…even after the Bronze Age had arrived…the Chalcolithic Age indeed, should not be taken lightly 

[The Puzzler]

18 hours ago, Abramelin said:

International Journal of Geosciences > Vol.11 No.10, October 2020

A Mega-Tsunami in the Baltic Sea 1171 BC: Geological Records with Special Reference to the Lake Mälaren Area in Sweden

(...)

The tsunami event is linked to seismic ground shaking and methane venting tectonics at several sites. The triggering factor is proposed to be the Kaali meteor impact in Estonia of the same age.

(...)

7. Conclusions

The tsunami records from Umeå, Hudiksvall, Forsmark, Upplands-Väsby, Saltsjöbaden, Åker, Södertörn, and Tystberga, all occurring at about 3000 BP, were in this paper put to a detailed test and analysis with respect to geology and archaeology in the Enköping-Bålsta area. The new data provide evidence that, indeed, the area was struck by a violent tsunami at about 3000 BP or about 1200 cal. yrs BC.

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=103896

….relative to Kaali in Estonia. Oh my. NOW this is exciting.

[The Puzzler]

The Celtic uprising didn’t occur out of thin air, I’ll say, as I always have said, it was a product of the end of the Nordic Bronze Age, where the impact of Kaali created a social situation that drove Scandinavian people south, becoming a Celtic type when intermingling with Central West Europeans…who even went as far south as Italy and Greece, taking the story with them.

[Abramelin]

4 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

….relative to Kaali in Estonia. Oh my. NOW this is exciting.

Yeah, but I do hope our resident geologist shows up and gives us his opinion.

@Doc Socks Junior

[Abramelin]

Cyprus salt lakes exonerate Peoples of the Sea from causing the destruction of Bronze Age civilizations

Cyprus Mail, August 15th, 2013

Researchers have discovered a possible clue at the Larnaca Salt Lake that might help explain the demise of the great Eastern Mediterranean civilizations such as Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Syria around 1200BC.

According to an AFP report, a cold, dry spell that lasted hundreds of years may have driven the civilizations to their collapse, French researchers said.

The research suggests that natural factors, including a wintry drought, may have dried up agriculture, caused famine and prompted wars.

The findings, published in the open-access journal PLoS One, are based on an analysis of sediments from the Larnaca Salt Lake.

According to AFP, lead researcher David Kaniewski of the University Paul Sabatier in Toulouse, found evidence of a 300-year drought beginning around 3,200 years ago in pollen grains derived from sediments in the Lake.

“Changes in carbon isotopes and local plant species suggest that the series of four lakes were once a sea harbour at the heart of trade routes in the region, offering a new piece in the puzzle that suggests a history of environmental changes which drove the region into a dark age,” said the report.

“This climate shift caused crop failures, death and famine, which precipitated or hastened socio-economic crises and forced regional human migrations at the end of the Late Bronze Age in the Eastern Mediterranean and southwest Asia.” Other evidence has been found of a climate shift in sea surface temperatures and a two degree Celsius drop around the same time in the northern hemisphere.

 

 

Read the rest here:

https://www.q-mag.org/cyprus-salt-lakes-exonerate-peoples-of-the-sea-from-causing-the-destruction-of-bronze-age-civilizations.html

[Antigonos]

37 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Cyprus salt lakes exonerate Peoples of the Sea from causing the destruction of Bronze Age civilizations

Cyprus Mail, August 15th, 2013

Researchers have discovered a possible clue at the Larnaca Salt Lake that might help explain the demise of the great Eastern Mediterranean civilizations such as Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Syria around 1200BC.

According to an AFP report, a cold, dry spell that lasted hundreds of years may have driven the civilizations to their collapse, French researchers said.

The research suggests that natural factors, including a wintry drought, may have dried up agriculture, caused famine and prompted wars.

The findings, published in the open-access journal PLoS One, are based on an analysis of sediments from the Larnaca Salt Lake.

According to AFP, lead researcher David Kaniewski of the University Paul Sabatier in Toulouse, found evidence of a 300-year drought beginning around 3,200 years ago in pollen grains derived from sediments in the Lake.

“Changes in carbon isotopes and local plant species suggest that the series of four lakes were once a sea harbour at the heart of trade routes in the region, offering a new piece in the puzzle that suggests a history of environmental changes which drove the region into a dark age,” said the report.

“This climate shift caused crop failures, death and famine, which precipitated or hastened socio-economic crises and forced regional human migrations at the end of the Late Bronze Age in the Eastern Mediterranean and southwest Asia.” Other evidence has been found of a climate shift in sea surface temperatures and a two degree Celsius drop around the same time in the northern hemisphere.

 

 

Read the rest here:

https://www.q-mag.org/cyprus-salt-lakes-exonerate-peoples-of-the-sea-from-causing-the-destruction-of-bronze-age-civilizations.html

Excellent. Great information. Thanks Abe.

[The Puzzler]

I’m not sure about 300 years but maybe 3 years….makes me think of grain Gods, who kept or bought knowledge about the growing of grain in mythologies…was this because it had become more important to society because of such instances…? However it’s not clear that this is the WHOLE reason.
Here is an interesting article, lots of graphs and information….

“Thus, we propose that these three years, between around 1198 and 1196 BC (and the period from 1198 to 1187 BC), may well mark and form a key part of the circumstances that precipitated the collapse of the Hittite Empire. However, we also must acknowledge that we lack the evidence to establish direct causation. It remains likely that this rare, disastrous climate episode from 1198 to 1196 BC tied in with (or enabled) other, probably human, forces that merit further examination. This drought event thus contributed to, but did not solely cause, the collapse and break-up of the Empire.

The Hittite collapse forms part of a wider set of changes occurring across the Old World around 1200 BC^{1,2,3,4,17,18,19,20}. Climate alone was not the sole cause of these changes; very different histories are evident within the greater region”

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05693-y#:~:text=For instance%2C a 300-year,%2C2%2C3%2C4.

[Antigonos]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:44 AM, Abramelin said:

Parts of the Kaali meteor were used in ancient Switzerland to create arrowheads:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001073?via%3Dihub

Mörner did not take part in this research

But does this indicate the trajectory of the Kaali meteor, or Kaalijarv as it is called in this paper?

According to a paper by Mörner et all, the next image shows 2 possible trajectories:

 

The ENE trajectory means, that part(s) of the meteor could have crashed into the North Sea, near the west coast of Denmark.

Or created the Grendel Crater just off the coast of southern Norway:

No one knows if this structure is even a crater, or how old it is.

Great information 👍