Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

42 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Great information 👍

It is.

But I think the  meteoritic iron used in Switzerland was not naturally dropped there but traded into there. I don’t believe the trajectory allows for a fall into Switzerland itself.

[Antigonos]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:44 AM, Abramelin said:

Parts of the Kaali meteor were used in ancient Switzerland to create arrowheads:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001073?via%3Dihub

Mörner did not take part in this research

But does this indicate the trajectory of the Kaali meteor, or Kaalijarv as it is called in this paper?

According to a paper by Mörner et all, the next image shows 2 possible trajectories:

 

The ENE trajectory means, that part(s) of the meteor could have crashed into the North Sea, near the west coast of Denmark.

Or created the Grendel Crater just off the coast of southern Norway:

No one knows if this structure is even a crater, or how old it is.

If it did land in the North Sea I suspect most of the crater has been eroded to the point of being unrecognizable unfortunately.

Edited February 13 by Antigonos

[Abramelin]

44 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

It is.

But I think the  meteoritic iron used in Switzerland was not naturally dropped there but traded into there. I don’t believe the trajectory allows for a fall into Switzerland itself.

It's of course possible the ancient Swiss got this meteoric iron by trade.

The trajectory follows a path that ends somewhere in the North Sea, west of Denmark. And any meteoric iron would be lost.

But it's not a thing of simply following a trajectory line. The meteor could well have broken up/exploded on entering Earth's atmosphere, resulting in a kind of 'spray' of smaller meteorites that deviated from the original trajectory. In that case parts of the original meteor could have ended up at what's now Switzerland.

Edited February 13 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

On 2/14/2024 at 3:26 AM, Abramelin said:

It's of course possible the ancient Swiss got this meteoric iron by trade.

The trajectory follows a path that ends somewhere in the North Sea, west of Denmark. And any meteoric iron would be lost.

But it's not a thing of simply following a trajectory line. The meteor could well have broken up/exploded on entering Earth's atmosphere, resulting in a kind of 'spray' of smaller meteorites that deviated from the original trajectory. In that case parts of the original meteor could have ended up at what's now Switzerland.

True.

[atalante]

On 2/13/2024 at 7:55 AM, The Puzzler said:

“Thus, we propose that these three years, between around 1198 and 1196 BC (and the period from 1198 to 1187 BC), may well mark and form a key part of the circumstances that precipitated the collapse of the Hittite Empire. However, we also must acknowledge that we lack the evidence to establish direct causation. It remains likely that this rare, disastrous climate episode from 1198 to 1196 BC tied in with (or enabled) other, probably human, forces that merit further examination. This drought event thus contributed to, but did not solely cause, the collapse and break-up of the Empire.

The Hittite collapse forms part of a wider set of changes occurring across the Old World around 1200 BC^{1,2,3,4,17,18,19,20}. Climate alone was not the sole cause of these changes; very different histories are evident within the greater region”

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05693-y#:~:text=For instance%2C a 300-year,%2C2%2C3%2C4.

Puzzler,

This small date range (1198-1196 C) for collapse of the Hittite capital city ties together nicely with an 1192 C date for destruction of Ugarit by the Sea Peoples.  Ugarit had been part of the Hittite empire.  So instability within the empire would be an opportune time to invade Ugarit. 

[Doc Socks Junior]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:20 AM, Abramelin said:

@Doc Socks Junior

I understand you are a geologist.

What do you think about Mörner and his papers?

He may have been working towards a result to prove Ragnarök really happened, and/or that Jürgen Spanuth was right.

But despite that, was he wrong?

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=103095

I've been noodling around in his papers on and off since you asked about this. Honestly, it's a bit of a maze to try and figure much out. A lot of short papers in open journals that reference 10-20 of his other papers, many of which are hard to track down.

I think that the author may be a little quick to call for large-magnitude seismic events based on quite scanty evidence.

To wit:

Deciding this (Fig. 8, Researchgate 'supplement') indicates a large earthquake, for instance.

The dating is sketchy. Rather crowbarred into the date that is wished. Basically 'well, this date is too old, so it's not right' and 'that date is too young, so it's not right', and 'this date is the date we think it should be, so it must be correct', as far as getting a date for the Kaali impact, which is not very well dated. Numbers of the 13 sites in the paper look like 'this is younger than 7000 years ago, so it must be the age I want it to be'.

Rather a massive tsunami suggested, but the Kaali impact was on land. Can obviously suggest fragmentation and a different piece in the water, but it would have to be quite large, I think. The triggering of large seismic events, etcetera, in Sweden, hundreds of kilometers away from a small impact in Estonia.

Bottom line, I'm a little skeptical.

Edited February 16 by Doc Socks Junior

[The Puzzler]

12 hours ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

This small date range (1198-1196 C) for collapse of the Hittite capital city ties together nicely with an 1192 C date for destruction of Ugarit by the Sea Peoples.  Ugarit had been part of the Hittite empire.  So instability within the empire would be an opportune time to invade Ugarit. 

Yes…it was kinda a rebutt against Abe’s paper found that said it needed 300 years….it’s an interesting in depth paper the one I linked.

In the end, the famine in Cyprus found in the old lakes does not explain the whole scenario but does contribute to something that does seem to have occurred.

Famine within a few years, does not give us the time frames the Egyptians give for attacks mentioning the Sea People….

 

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

I've been noodling around in his papers on and off since you asked about this. Honestly, it's a bit of a maze to try and figure much out. A lot of short papers in open journals that reference 10-20 of his other papers, many of which are hard to track down.

I think that the author may be a little quick to call for large-magnitude seismic events based on quite scanty evidence.

To wit:

Deciding this (Fig. 8, Researchgate 'supplement') indicates a large earthquake, for instance.

The dating is sketchy. Rather crowbarred into the date that is wished. Basically 'well, this date is too old, so it's not right' and 'that date is too young, so it's not right', and 'this date is the date we think it should be, so it must be correct', as far as getting a date for the Kaali impact, which is not very well dated. Numbers of the 13 sites in the paper look like 'this is younger than 7000 years ago, so it must be the age I want it to be'.

Rather a massive tsunami suggested, but the Kaali impact was on land. Can obviously suggest fragmentation and a different piece in the water, but it would have to be quite large, I think. The triggering of large seismic events, etcetera, in Sweden, hundreds of kilometers away from a small impact in Estonia.

Bottom line, I'm a little skeptical.

Hmm…that’s a very fair answer. The dating for Kaali could be between 7000BC and 700BC….

We do however have scant evidence of the impact within a time frame comparable with traces in Nordic mythology…the impact does seem mentioned in the Kalevala….

So imo the impact did occur at a later date, Nordic Bronze Age, circa. 1200-900BC…from everything I’ve ever read on the Kaali fields. 
As for the geology left behind on Swedish coasts….I’d have to rejog myself on info there. 

[Doc Socks Junior]

21 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Hmm…that’s a very fair answer. The dating for Kaali could be between 7000BC and 700BC….

I was a bit wishy-washy, to be fair.

21 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

We do however have scant evidence of the impact within a time frame comparable with traces in Nordic mythology…the impact does seem mentioned in the Kalevala….

So imo the impact did occur at a later date, Nordic Bronze Age, circa. 1200-900BC…from everything I’ve ever read on the Kaali fields. 

I think you're correct there. That's where some of the recent C14 dating put it, I believe, before being tortured into submission by our late Swedish friend and his friend.

21 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

As for the geology left behind on Swedish coasts….I’d have to rejog myself on info there. 

Tsunamites. Yeah. I don't pretend to get into sedimentology, but that's a rabbit hole for sure.

[The Puzzler]

It’s possible, actually probable, there was disruption…impacts, tsunamis, geological changes around the same time…c.1200-1100BC in Northern Europe, which did lead to migrations South.

Possibly even heading into the Eastern Med from Italy, as the bird headed boat people would have….maybe the pirate Tyrrhenians…possible ancient relatives….

maybe even Phoenicians…as docy gave a good evidence of a bird headed ship,on brooch, from Tartessos, made by possible…Phoenicians, but I’ve never really seen a double bird head boat in PHoenician imagery…

.the Central European people who moved south into Iberia…maybe…Celtic-Iberians….not later Phoenicians at Gades….

it seems ideally easier to lob on the Libyans from that direction, from Iberia…

The outfits themselves would indicate to me years of inclusion into the Mediterranean society……not just hey, let’s attack from Central Europe…they would have to be, if a European people, entwined with Mediterranean culture for a while, to be wearing those outfits imo.. People known to the Egyptians at any rate.

Edited February 19 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

maybe even Phoenicians…as docy gave a good evidence of a bird headed ship,on brooch, from Tartessos, made by possible…Phoenicians, but I’ve never really seen a double bird head boat in PHoenician imagery…

That thing Docy posted was part of a horse's bit.

Not very likely it depicted a ship.

Edited February 19 by Abramelin

[atalante]

On 2/19/2024 at 8:26 AM, The Puzzler said:

Possibly even heading into the Eastern Med from Italy, as the bird headed boat people would have….maybe the pirate Tyrrhenians…possible ancient relatives….

Tyrrhenian pirates seem similar to the Sea Peoples.  In Greece's Telegony epic, Telegonos grew up with his mother Circe (i.e. in western Italy) but commited piracy in Odysseus's home kingdom (in Greece).  

[docyabut2]

A3,200-year-old sword was recently unearthed on the Spanish island of Mallorca in the town of Puigpunyent. According to Ancient Origins, the “Talaiot del Serral de ses Abelles” site is home to large stone megaliths called talayot (or talaiot), which date from 1000 to 6000 B.C

why the same swords? 

Edited February 20 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

Sea Peoples Warriors with distinctive Horned Swords, set 2.(From “The Sea Peoples and Their World : A Reassessment).

[docyabut2]

The Issue of Weapons Part 1 | by James Thomas

Medium · James Thomas

12 years ago

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have an very peculiar image in which all three ... Another example of Sea Peoples and Egyptian Sea Peoples Allies equipped with Horned Swords.

[docyabut2]

A dazzling Bronze Age hoard discovered in Spain more than 60 years ago contains some out-of-this-world metal, as a new analysis reveals that parts of the treasures were made from meteoric iron.

The hoard, known as the Treasure of Villena and discovered by archaeologists in 1963, encompasses a total of 59 bottles, bowls and pieces of jewelry exquisitely crafted from gold, silver, amber and iron.

Upon the hoard's discovery, in a gravel pit in the province of Alicante, however, researchers noticed a few curious details about some of the iron pieces. At the time, they described the items as being crafted of "a dark leaden metal. It is shiny in some areas, and covered with a ferrous-looking oxide that is mostly cracked," according to El País, a newspaper in Spain.

https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/bronze-age-treasure-was-crafted-with-extraterrestrial-metal

what still waters posted 

 

[docyabut2]

Look at the swords the handles are the same

[docyabut2]

14 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

A dazzling Bronze Age hoard discovered in Spain more than 60 years ago contains some out-of-this-world metal, as a new analysis reveals that parts of the treasures were made from meteoric iron.

The hoard, known as the Treasure of Villena and discovered by archaeologists in 1963, encompasses a total of 59 bottles, bowls and pieces of jewelry exquisitely crafted from gold, silver, amber and iron.

Upon the hoard's discovery, in a gravel pit in the province of Alicante, however, researchers noticed a few curious details about some of the iron pieces. At the time, they described the items as being crafted of "a dark leaden metal. It is shiny in some areas, and covered with a ferrous-looking oxide that is mostly cracked," according to El País, a newspaper in Spain.

https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/bronze-age-treasure-was-crafted-with-extraterrestrial-metal

what still waters posted Bronze Age 'treasure' was crafted from meteoritic iron

 

  The end of the Bronze Age could mean from a  hit from a meteor ?

[Abramelin]

14 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

A3,200-year-old sword was recently unearthed on the Spanish island of Mallorca in the town of Puigpunyent. According to Ancient Origins, the “Talaiot del Serral de ses Abelles” site is home to large stone megaliths called talayot (or talaiot), which date from 1000 to 6000 B.C

why the same swords? 

Because there was a trade in those swords?

[Abramelin]

13 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

  The end of the Bronze Age could mean from a  hit from a meteor ?

That have we been discussing for pages.

[docyabut2]

8 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Because there was a trade in those swords?

It just shows the sea people came from the western Mediterranean 

 

[Abramelin]

On 2/21/2024 at 8:53 PM, docyabut2 said:

It just shows the sea people came from the western Mediterranean 

 

No. It shows the Sea People used similar swords. Which doesn't prove that part of the Sea People came from Iberia.

If I have a watch made in Japan, does that make me a Japanese? No. It's TRADE.

[Abramelin]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:50 PM, docyabut2 said:

Look at the swords the handles are the same

Tut's dagger looks nothing like those swords:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36432635

Tut's dagger:

 

Edited February 23 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Horned Helmets of the Bronze Age.

Figures wearing horned helmets are depicted in Scandinavian rock art, on stelae in the Iberian Peninsula, and menhirs on Corsica. And horned helmets feature on statuettes from Zealand, Sardinia, and Cyprus, on wall decorations of the Sea People on reliefs in Egypt before the Bronze Age collapse, and on the Mycenaean Warrior Vase.

Clearly, horned helmets were widely distributed during this period of the Bronze Age.

But why? What do they mean? And are they connected in some way?

In this video we’re taking an epic voyage through the European Bronze Age in the 12th century BC from Scandinavia to the Iberian Peninsula and across the Mediterranean to the east in search of the horned helmets of traders, warriors, kings, and gods.

[Abramelin]

A still from the video: