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How should the west react to Russia's annexation of Ukrainian territory?


and-then
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If Putin realizes Russia will be defeated, will he use a nuclear weapon?  

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  1. 1. If Putin realizes Russia will be defeated, will he use a nuclear weapon?

    • YES
      7
    • NO
      15


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Putin made it official today by accepting the referenda results from the 4 Ukrainian regions that voted between 9/23-27.  He has said, very clearly, that he will use whatever force is required to defend the new territory.  When we also add the destruction of Russia's pipeline and the massive income it represented, do we really think he wouldn't use a nuke?  If we are wrong and he DOES, what should the answer be?

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Should? Ok, in my opinion;

Full out deployment to reinforce the Ukrainian military. Assist in the retaking of all illegally invaded and annexed lands. 

Then, precision strikes on all Russian military targets IOT neutralize any and all conventional and non conventional forces/munitions.

Activate and on order,  in-country assets can liquidate all prominent members of the Putin regime. 

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Too categorical.

On Likert scale I'd be in the middle or less likely, because psycho is unpredictable (I wonder whether he got 'present' from Kabayeva in the form of STD, i.e. syphilis)

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So you do not believe he will resort to using a nuclear weapon in that case?

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1 minute ago, and-then said:

So you do not believe he will resort to using a nuclear weapon in that case?

He may, but I wouldn't say as 'Yes' nor 'No'.

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Just now, bmk1245 said:

Too categorical.

On Likert scale I'd be in the middle or less likely, because psycho is unpredictable (I wonder whether he got 'present' from Kabayeva in the form of STD, i.e. syphilis)

I've read his speech and know a little about the beliefs of Dugin and I think the guy could very well use a nuke.  He might not attack a NATO state but if he used a low-yield airburst over a Ukrainian city, I think it would massively stir up the world.  I don't see Biden's handlers striking him back with a nuke but they'd have no choice but to strike with massive conventional forces and then Putin would be obliged to strike yet again with a nuke. 

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1 minute ago, and-then said:

I've read his speech and know a little about the beliefs of Dugin and I think the guy could very well use a nuke.  He might not attack a NATO state but if he used a low-yield airburst over a Ukrainian city, I think it would massively stir up the world.  I don't see Biden's handlers striking him back with a nuke but they'd have no choice but to strike with massive conventional forces and then Putin would be obliged to strike yet again with a nuke. 

Fair enough, but nuking Ukrainian city would mean he is killing people he supposed to be liberating.

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1 hour ago, and-then said:

Putin made it official today by accepting the referenda results from the 4 Ukrainian regions that voted between 9/23-27.  He has said, very clearly, that he will use whatever force is required to defend the new territory.  When we also add the destruction of Russia's pipeline and the massive income it represented, do we really think he wouldn't use a nuke?  If we are wrong and he DOES, what should the answer be?

Those led by their emotions will say nuke back.

Those led by their brain would say don`t retaliate or we all die. Russia will be more isolated after using a nuke, we need to keep them isolated until Putin is gone (even if that takes a couple of decades).

There is another option and that is to give the Ukrainians some nukes, but that would result in their complete nuclear annihilation even if they do use what we give them.

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13 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Russia will be more isolated after using a nuke

They've already been removed from connections to the west and they've realigned with India, China, Iran, and others.  I don't think that sanctions matter at this point.  I think we are in more danger of a nuclear war today than we've been since the Cuban missile crisis.  If he uses one and we hit him hard it could mean a general exchange of nukes before we could get things under control.  If he uses one and we back down, he'll keep grabbing land until he is stopped.

Meanwhile, our nation is being "led" by a senile old man.  

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5 hours ago, and-then said:

They've already been removed from connections to the west and they've realigned with India, China, Iran, and others.  I don't think that sanctions matter at this point.  I think we are in more danger of a nuclear war today than we've been since the Cuban missile crisis.  If he uses one and we hit him hard it could mean a general exchange of nukes before we could get things under control.  If he uses one and we back down, he'll keep grabbing land until he is stopped.

Meanwhile, our nation is being "led" by a senile old man.  

A possibility is that Ukraine (an agricultural nation) will take its pesticides (nerve gas) and retaliate using it.

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Don't recognize them

Keep sanctioning Russia

Keep supporting Ukraine by providing them weapon and technology

 

By the way, how many countries in the world recognize results of that referendum?

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Posted (edited)

I know it's an unpopular opinion but I think we should unofficially recognizes Russia's annexation of the 4 regions.

It does not mean we approve of Putin's actions but we should discourage Ukraine from attacking the territories. We need to distance ourselves from those actions as to avoid colliding into direct war with Russia. We shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that Ukraine can take back Crimea, Donbass, Kherson or Zaporizhzhia without a serious escalation or maybe even a nuclear response from Russia. Any gains that Ukraine is currently making in those region is likely to be ephemeral and short-lived once Russia completes mobilization of 300.000+  additional troops, it's game over. Since it's completely unrealistic to believe that we can ''defeat'' Russia in Ukraine, it's best that we allow Putin to save face, let him occupy that 15% of Ukrainian territories indefinitely and freeze the frontlines. It's called damage control. We can then attempt to resume negotiations, which the Kremlin appears willing to do.

Edited by Occult1
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

I know it's an unpopular opinion but I think we should unofficially recognizes Russia's annexation of the 4 regions.

It does not mean we approve of Putin's actions but we should discourage Ukraine from attacking the territories. We shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that Ukraine can take back Crimea, Donbass, Kherson or Zaporizhzhia without a serious escalation or maybe even a nuclear response from Russia. Any gains that Ukraine is currently making in those region to be ephemeral and once Russia completes mobilization of 300.000+ troops, it's game over. Since it's completely unrealistic to believe that we can ''defeat'' Russia in Ukraine, it's best that we allow Putin to save face, let him occupy that 15% of Ukrainian territories and freeze the front lines. We can then attempt negotiations, which the Kremlin appears willing to do.

Russia is stuck in Ukraine. They are not winning the war neither. And this war also crushes Russia from the inside. It has multiple consequences. IMO it's still worth fighting but I also understand your point of view. Those 300 000+ troops look like cannon fodder to me. I don't think that it will be game over.

Edited by TrumanB
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If you have to keep making the same threat than it means you're not going to do it. See North Korea for example.

Putin has to worry about unrest at home, which limits his moves. That's way he waited to do a conscription and even now it's just "partial". Using a nuke could push that unrest over the edge 

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I don't think he is that crazy to use nukes but when he sees that can't win this war there is a big threat in form of terrorist actions. For example, he may try to damage the gas pipeline between Norway and Poland.

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17 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

I know it's an unpopular opinion but I think we should unofficially recognizes Russia's annexation of the 4 regions.

It does not mean we approve of Putin's actions but we should discourage Ukraine from attacking the territories. We need to distance ourselves from those actions as to avoid colliding into direct war with Russia. We shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that Ukraine can take back Crimea, Donbass, Kherson or Zaporizhzhia without a serious escalation or maybe even a nuclear response from Russia. Any gains that Ukraine is currently making in those region is likely to be ephemeral and short-lived once Russia completes mobilization of 300.000+  additional troops, it's game over. Since it's completely unrealistic to believe that we can ''defeat'' Russia in Ukraine, it's best that we allow Putin to save face, let him occupy that 15% of Ukrainian territories indefinitely and freeze the frontlines. It's called damage control. We can then attempt to resume negotiations, which the Kremlin appears willing to do.

Game over if the moblization hits 300k? You do realise they're poorly trained right? Momentum is all on Ukraine at this moment.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, TrumanB said:

Russia is stuck in Ukraine. They are not winning the war neither. And this war also crushes Russia from the inside. It has multiple consequences. IMO it's still worth fighting but I also understand your point of view.

Russia's war objectives has shifted to those 4 regions.

That's what they are fighting for and the complete liberation of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia is what they define as a total victory.

Does Ukraine stands a chance to take back those territories? Absolutely not. Not without significant backing and support. Not with Putin willing to risk nuclear war over them.

Edited by Occult1
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1 minute ago, Occult1 said:

Russia's war objectives has shifted to those 4 regions.

That's what they are fighting for and the complete liberation of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia is what they define as a total victory.

Does Ukraine stands a chance to take back those territories? Absolutely not. Not without significant help. Not with Putin willing to risk nuclear war of them.

Ukraine are pushing further into the Donbas and NATO isnt going to stop supporting them until Putlers forces ****s off.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

Game over if the moblization hits 300k? You do realise they're poorly trained right? Momentum is all on Ukraine at this moment.

You do realize that those 300.000 reservists will free all those troops with combat effectiveness currently in the rear?

Edited by Occult1
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1 minute ago, Occult1 said:

You do realize that those 300.000 reservists will free all those troops with combat effectiveness in the rear?

Ha combat effectiveness? What on earth are you on about? Russias elites cant even have any success at the moment. Just more cannon fodder, its sad.

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This is interesting, but some people are saying that he would most likely use chemical weapons in the end. I think they are right. And I read somewhere that China and India told him under no circumstances not to use nuclear bombs. I don't know if that is true. But it all makes sense.

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Putin has already lost the war in Ukraine, regardless of how much longer the fighting on the ground continues.  Gains of rich territory have dissolved in economic disaster.   The Russian economy is suffering. The Russians do not even have control of the territories they annexed. Most important, the chief goal, more prestige for Russia on the world stage has evaporated and moved into negative territory.  NATO is gaining new members, Putin's response to sanctions is pushing dissatisfaction in Russia to higher levels.  He can hold rallies and claim glorious liberation of the Donetsk  but the world isn't buying it and fewer people in Russia are every day.

Satellite photos show roughly a million people lined up at the borders fleeing Russia.  Putin's exhortation to the people in the annexed region to get ready to fight for Russia is not going over well.   There are highly placed Russians that can read the situation.  They can weigh the dangers of opposing Putin, and they are reluctant unless the stakes are life and death.   If he gets close to pressing the button, he may fall out of an open window.

Its also telling that his "allies" in the world are North Korea, an unstable regime in Iran, Indians looking for a bargain in energy prices, and a visibly reluctant China.  It doesn't have the look of a winning team.  

At this point Putin using WMD is not a military strategy.  It is a petulant leader raging and punishing innocents to salve his wounds.  It is not really smart for someone this close to losing to do something brutal to opponents that will firm the world's  anger against him. 

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55 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

it's best that we allow Putin to save face, let him occupy that 15% of Ukrainian territories indefinitely and freeze the frontlines.

Uh, no.  History can be a brutal teacher and that lesson we paid millions of dead to learn.  Appeasement cannot be the answer.  Sooner or later, he'd be back for more OR other dictators would get the idea they could do something similar.  NO, he cannot be seen to succeed, even at a Pyrrhic cost.

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We should give Ukraine access to a nuke of their own.  Anything Russia threatens with, should be equalized on the Ukrainian side.  

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49 minutes ago, TrumanB said:

I don't think he is that crazy to use nukes but when he sees that can't win this war there is a big threat in form of terrorist actions. For example, he may try to damage the gas pipeline between Norway and Poland.

I think that possibility is the reason NATO announced that they WOULD exact a price if their infrastructure was attacked.  They KNOW he's apt to do that now.  Shutting down any more of the energy supply to the EU at this point would cause many thousands of dead.  I keep seeing those smug German representatives at the UN who laughed at Trump when he said they'd made a grave error with their Russian gas dependency.  Now, millions of Germans and others will be struggling to keep from actually freezing to death.  The whole country will be impacted.  I feel really bad for the children and the frail elderly.

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