Christian parents win in court after school labeled 6-year-old son potentially 'transphobic'

[odas]

25 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

All of those point to objective biological sex traits, most superficial and cosmetic. Just because a male has the coloring of a female doesn’t make it the “opposite gender”. Some women grow hair on their chins but they are still females. Some people grow hair all over their face but they are not animals.

You did not read all. Some "identify" as the opposite gender, some for safety reason, some because it s is NATURAL for them, some for advancing.

Apsolutely no different what is happening among humans.

Again, it is not about what you or me identify as correct or incorrect. It is about the individuals and their precieving of their indentity.

[+Desertrat56]

Jeez.  I can't keep up with the way words change.  I am not that old, but sex is an act and gender is based on your genitals.   Gender is Not an Idea, or description of who someone thinks they are, it is whether you are male or female - if you have an operation to change your gender, then you change whether you are male or female.  Changing the meaning of words to justify your biases is not rational.   Everyone has bias, but most can be rational and admit thier bias.   For example the extreme bias @Knob Oddy used to pretend like only lesbians can be tough enough to fight a man.   That indicates your  bias against women, all women.   I have, and have known women who have had to fight men and were able to get the best of them or at least hold their own and none of us were lesbians, just women who refused to be abused or raped.   And angry women are not all lesbians, some of us are angry because of men like some of you or who think like you all who still want women to "stay in their place".

Men can wear dresses, take care of kids and cook and women can ride motorcycles and pilot fighter jets and it is no one's business to judge them.   AND it has nothing to do with whether someone wants to identify differently, change their gender or love someone of the same gender.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Desertrat56

[el midgetron]

35 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi El

I don’t impose my subjective reality on anyone as this is a discussion forum to which I respond because we all have a life that may be different than yours.

Do you not understand what doing harm to others means as that is what I said.

You know even though we have different opinions about topics does not mean I disrespect you. This should be evident given some of the discussions we have had as I have never called you a troll or spoke down to you.

I do think you are on the extreme ranger of being self righteous though and try to work with that when involved in discussions with you.

I’m not accusing you of imposing your subjective reality on me. I’m saying that for a man to expect to others to believe he is a woman, is an imposition of that man’s subjective reality. People can define themselves however they see fit, none of us are obligated to accept that subjective reality. 

[jmccr8]

Just now, el midgetron said:

I’m not accusing you of imposing your subjective reality on me. I’m saying that for a man to expect to others to believe he is a woman, is an imposition of that man’s subjective reality. People can define themselves however they see fit, none of us are obligated to accept that subjective reality. 

Hi El

That person is free to make that choice and if they do no harm to others then there is not a problem. Just because they made a choice does not mean they are imposing on you personally. You make the choice to be offended, me I could care less how a person wants to identify so long as they do no harm.

[el midgetron]

9 minutes ago, odas said:

You did not read all. Some "identify" as the opposite gender, some for safety reason, some because it s is NATURAL for them, some for advancing.

Apsolutely no different what is happening among humans.

Again, it is not about what you or me identify as correct or incorrect. It is about the individuals and their precieving of their indentity.

They cosmetically “identify” as the opposite sex NOT because they are the opposite sex but because it provides some social benefit like camouflage or protection. Again all of those animal examples deal with biological sex traits not gender identity. Either gender is tied to sex or it isn’t. 

[spartan max2]

10 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Jeez.  I can't keep up with the way words change.  I am not that old, but sex is an act and gender is based on your genitals.   Gender is Not an Idea, or description of who someone thinks they are, it is whether you are male or female - if you have an operation to change your gender, then you change whether you are male or female.  Changing the meaning of words to justify your biases is not rational.   Everyone has bias, but most can be rational and admit thier bias.   For example the extreme bias @Knob Oddy used to pretend like only lesbians can be tough enough to fight a man.   That indicates your  bias against women, all women.   I have, and have known women who have had to fight men and were able to get the best of them or at least hold their own and none of us were lesbians, just women who refused to be abused or raped.   And angry women are not all lesbians, some of us are angry because of men like some of you or who think like you all who still want women to "stay in their place".

Men can wear dresses, take care of kids and cook and women can ride motorcycles and pilot fighter jets and it is no one's business to judge them.   AND it has nothing to do with whether someone wants to identify differently, change their gender or love someone of the same gender.

Words evolve overtime. As society faces new situations and events. 

Historically society shoved trans people into the corner and told them to shut up (and often much worse than that) so as a society we never really had to look at our words. 

I truly believe that the separation of the word sex and gender is the inevitable outcome that was started when we as humans realized people did not have to act and do certain things just because of their gentials. Woman can work. Men can be caregivers, etc. 

But at the end of the day I think the philosophical of the words argument is less important than everyone just treating each other with respect and to be nonjudgmental to each other. We are all unique individuals. 

[el midgetron]

2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi El

That person is free to make that choice and if they do no harm to others then there is not a problem. Just because they made a choice does not mean they are imposing on you personally. You make the choice to be offended, me I could care less how a person wants to identify so long as they do no harm.

Transgender affirmation treatments harm children, 

Ok, so if someone believes white people are genetically superior to black people, does that belief “harm” you? Can any belief absent of action “harm” someone? 

[+Hammerclaw]

16 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I'm totally good with that, just as long as it applies to every parent.  If a parent wants to support their child's endeavor to be trans, it should not be the state's business.

Well, that's crossing the line of insanity, child abuse and criminal negligence. How nice that you're all for it.

[odas]

8 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

They cosmetically “identify” as the opposite sex NOT because they are the opposite sex but because it provides some social benefit like camouflage or protection. Again all of those animal examples deal with biological sex traits not gender identity. Either gender is tied to sex or it isn’t. 

Again, you are mixing up opposite gender and opposite sex. A transgender woman has biologicly the sex of a male but the bilogical selfidentification of a female. That transgender woman may be sexualy drawn to either sex or both. 

But, I can see where you come from and what creates a bit of confusion and anymosity towards transgender people. I know a couple transgender individuals. They both seem very genuin about what they are. They act like a "normal" biological female. Nothing over the top. On the other hand I instantly switch to another channel as soon as I see the over the top transgender individuals on "reality" shows that act like no women has ever acted before. Those individuals create anymosity towards the genuin transgenders.

But, just based on those attention seekers, I will not negativly judge the true transgender individuals.

[jmccr8]

12 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

Transgender affirmation treatments harm children, 

Ok, so if someone believes white people are genetically superior to black people, does that belief “harm” you? Can any belief absent of action “harm” someone? 

Hi El

Odd you should ask a person who has been subjected to racism if it can do harm? Yes it can and no I won’t let it hurt me have passed that milestone decades ago.

Racism is not the same as transgender because most transgender are not promoting hate but the people that are offended by them do.

I don’t live my life in fear of how others might impact it as I know who I am and live my life for me.

[odas]

19 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

Transgender affirmation treatments harm children, 

Ok, so if someone believes white people are genetically superior to black people, does that belief “harm” you? Can any belief absent of action “harm” someone? 

That is comparing A's to O's. The beliefe of someones superiority can not harm me as long as this belief is not supported or seconded by physical threats.

Supporting ones beliefe that he/she is transgender will not harm the person. Opposing their beliefe will not harm the person either physicaly, mentaly it will.

 

[el midgetron]

3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi El

Odd you should ask a person who has been subjected to racism if it can do harm? Yes it can and no I won’t let it hurt me have passed that milestone decades ago.

Racism is not the same as transgender because most transgender are not promoting hate but the people that are offended by them do.

I don’t live my life in fear of how others might impact it as I know who I am and live my life for me.

Im sorry JMCCR8 but you are not following my argument. Someone’s beliefs cannot harm someone else unless it is acted upon. 

Do you support society affirming everyone’s subjective reality or only politically convenient subjective realities?  

Why is it acceptable to socially impose the subjective reality that a man can be a woman but it’s not ok to socially impose the subjective reality that a white person is superior to a black person? 

Objective realities are things we can independently measure and quantify, we should all be able to agree on objective reality. Subjective realities exist only within our perceptions and beliefs, everyone’s subjective reality can be different. 
 

 

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well, that's crossing the line of insanity, child abuse and criminal negligence. How nice that you're all for it.

Well, then the state and society do have a voice in determining what is acceptable  for parents in raising their children.  

[el midgetron]

1 hour ago, odas said:

That is comparing A's to O's. The beliefe of someones superiority can not harm me as long as this belief is not supported or seconded by physical threats.

Supporting ones beliefe that he/she is transgender will not harm the person. Opposing their beliefe will not harm the person either physicaly, mentaly it will.

There are two problems with this. There isn’t a standard for the social acceptance of a subjective reality as long as it “doesn’t harm” anyone. People can believe whatever they want but no one else is obligated to adapt that belief even if there is no harm in it. What if two people have conflicting subjective realities and neither cause harm? Which subjective reality is imposed by society? The belief in God doesn’t intrinsically harm anyone either. So, why is it unrealistic to expect others to adopt your belief in God? Trans people can self-identify however they choose, no one else should be obligated to participate in or adopt that subjective reality. 

The other is the assumption that there is no harm in transgender ideology. I don’t think anyone here cares what other people personally believe. It’s the implementation in society of those beliefs that becomes problematic. It’s mental harm you use in your example. It could be mentally harming to some women to eliminate single sex spaces. Here are two people’s subjective realities that are at odds and both claim to be mentally harmed by the other over who gets to use a single sex space. This is why society generally isn’t organized by subjective realities. In addition I would argue that affirmation treatments are harmful to children, 
 

[Golden Duck]

8 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Well you're always here whinging too, so there you go at least have that in common.

Whattaboutism

Why don't you just recite Rubber/Glue?

Edited October 19, 2022 by Golden Duck

[Golden Duck]

7 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Yes, but not caring that a man is wearing a dress means you're a hate filled bigot....apparently. 

If you are indeed as apathetic as you claim, why do you feel so compelled to proclaim that you feel a man wearing a dress is a "freak show"?

[Golden Duck]

5 hours ago, el midgetron said:

 I do agree that biology, nature and state of mind are not always in harmony. However, I reject the claim that transgender is a part of nature and biology. Being transgender is entirely subjective.

 I can’t think of any other examples where someone’s subjective state of mind is accepted by society over the objective reality of nature or biology. Sure, people will have shared subjective beliefs and norms but it’s important to remember that sometimes those beliefs are false. A society might believe in God but “God” is an external concept we subscribe to, not an internal construct we identify as and then expect others to objectively recognize (well, usually not and those cases probably don’t provide the best support for trans ideology). 

There is also a false logical and moral equivalence for citing something’s prevalence throughout history and culture as a justification for its adaption today. Slavery is also persistent throughout history and culture, yet not acceptable today. It’s the same with numerous other historical practices and beliefs as well. Also in contrast, despite historical examples of third-genders, intersex and non traditional gender roles, there is an even greater historical and cultural precedence for binary gender roles that are directly tied to sex. 

Remember that time you had a misunderstanding with a disabled person, on this site?  What was your assertion?  IIRC, it was something like a person value is not dependent on whether, or not, they are disabled?

In the past, a person disability may well have linked to an ability to survive in an environment.  However, homo sapiens is said to have transcended survival-of-the-fittest evolution. That is, humans don't need to adapt to an environment, since humans can adapt the environment to them.

Today, despite some cultural idiosyncrasies, I struggle to find a need to consider whether someone is male or female - beyond some primal urge to decide if someone is attractive or not.

Yet, aestheic disfigurement is motivation enough to proceed with reconstructive surgery.

This is what this debate can be distiled down to.  How, much a human reacts to instinct.

[Golden Duck]

4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Words evolve overtime. As society faces new situations and events. 

Historically society shoved trans people into the corner and told them to shut up (and often much worse than that) so as a society we never really had to look at our words. 

I truly believe that the separation of the word sex and gender is the inevitable outcome that was started when we as humans realized people did not have to act and do certain things just because of their gentials. Woman can work. Men can be caregivers, etc. 

But at the end of the day I think the philosophical of the words argument is less important than everyone just treating each other with respect and to be nonjudgmental to each other. We are all unique individuals. 

The way you are using the words is perfectly fine and orthodox.

The idea that "sex" is excusively the abbreviation of "sexual intercourse" is false.

The word "sex" has long been used as a noun.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/sex

Edited October 19, 2022 by Golden Duck

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, el midgetron said:

I’m not accusing you of imposing your subjective reality on me. I’m saying that for a man to expect to others to believe he is a woman, is an imposition of that man’s subjective reality. People can define themselves however they see fit, none of us are obligated to accept that subjective reality. 

Hi El

Why does it matter what they want to be called, it’s their choice and affects my life or my perception of myself in no way or yours really. I see white, Asian and Ndns walking around with there pants belted under their butt like a prison b!tch and talking like they think they are black how is that any different. It doesn’t matter to me?

My challenges were because of racism and for having a criminal record and that was only a problem earlier in life. Now my life with respect to the perceptions from others is based on the quality of my work. I don’t advertise and never have so the majority of work I do is through referrals and have work for all kinds of people from my MP to trans and everything in between including cops and prison guards and never have a problem with them.

[el midgetron]

54 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Remember that time you had a misunderstanding with a disabled person, on this site?  What was your assertion?  IIRC, it was something like a person value is not dependent on whether, or not, they are disabled?

In the past, a person disability may well have linked to an ability to survive in an environment.  However, homo sapiens is said to have transcended survival-of-the-fittest evolution. That is, humans don't need to adapt to an environment, since humans can adapt the environment to them.

Today, despite some cultural idiosyncrasies, I struggle to find a need to consider whether someone is male or female - beyond some primal urge to decide if someone is attractive or not.

Yet, aestheic disfigurement is motivation enough to proceed with reconstructive surgery.

This is what this debate can be distiled down to.  How, much a human reacts to instinct.

Yeah, I think I remember the incident you are referring to. 

Im not entirely clear on the point you are trying to make. Is the disfigurement reconstruction a comparison to gender affirmation treatment?

I think there is more to consider about the debate than reactions to human instinct. Some instincts can save our lives like running from danger. Other instincts are socially restricted or forbidden, like the urge to reproduce. We have evolved and developed culture and a society governed by rules. 

[el midgetron]

17 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi El

Why does it matter what they want to be called, it’s their choice and affects my life or my perception of myself in no way or yours really. I see white, Asian and Ndns walking around with there pants belted under their butt like a prison b!tch and talking like they think they are black how is that any different. It doesn’t matter to me?

My challenges were because of racism and for having a criminal record and that was only a problem earlier in life. Now my life with respect to the perceptions from others is based on the quality of my work. I don’t advertise and never have so the majority of work I do is through referrals and have work for all kinds of people from my MP to trans and everything in between including cops and prison guards and never have a problem with them.

That’s great for you! However, there is nothing there that requires you to adopt or participate in someone’s subjective reality. I think most people would refer to someone how they preferred, that’s not a courtesy unique to the transgender issue.

[Myles]

9 hours ago, odas said:

What about people who were born with both, male and female genitalia? What would be their right to present themself as? 

It depends one what chromosomes they have.  

[Myles]

36 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi El

Why does it matter what they want to be called, it’s their choice and affects my life or my perception of myself in no way or yours really. I see white, Asian and Ndns walking around with there pants belted under their butt like a prison b!tch and talking like they think they are black how is that any different. It doesn’t matter to me?

My challenges were because of racism and for having a criminal record and that was only a problem earlier in life. Now my life with respect to the perceptions from others is based on the quality of my work. I don’t advertise and never have so the majority of work I do is through referrals and have work for all kinds of people from my MP to trans and everything in between including cops and prison guards and never have a problem with them.

No skin off my back, Unless talking horribly is forced to be a class in school.

[+Hammerclaw]

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Well, then the state and society do have a voice in determining what is acceptable  for parents in raising their children.  

Yeah, laws and common sense, which isn't so common among people who eschew logic and reason in order to fit in with the illogical and unreasonable people who will turn on them like a ravenous pack of wolves if their pet beliefs are disputed, not unlike being a heretic during the inquisition. 

[jmccr8]

9 hours ago, el midgetron said:

Im sorry JMCCR8 but you are not following my argument. Someone’s beliefs cannot harm someone else unless it is acted upon. 

Do you support society affirming everyone’s subjective reality or only politically convenient subjective realities?  

Why is it acceptable to socially impose the subjective reality that a man can be a woman but it’s not ok to socially impose the subjective reality that a white person is superior to a black person? 

Objective realities are things we can independently measure and quantify, we should all be able to agree on objective reality. Subjective realities exist only within our perceptions and beliefs, everyone’s subjective reality can be different. 
 

 

Hi El

Why do I have to affirm anything society does or deems all I have to do is work within the lines and it isn’t that much of a challenge for me to do so. If someone wants to identify as whatever okay that is fine they live with their choices and I live with mine. Your perception of objective reality may be different than mine simply because of environment  and I don’t deal with or rely on absolutes as everything changes anyway. I don’t make a big deal about life I got it for free and have used it well and looks like there is still some treads on that tire so will run it till it’s bald.