Young women are trending liberal. Young men are not

[+OverSword]

Quote

 

Young women are more likely to identify as liberal now than at any time in the past two decades, a trend that puts them squarely at odds with young men. 

Forty-four percent of young women counted themselves liberal in 2021, compared to 25 percent of young men, according to Gallup Poll data analyzed by the Survey Center on American Life. The gender gap is the largest recorded in 24 years of polling. The finding culminates years of rising liberalism among women ages 18 to 29, without any increase among their male peers. 

Several societal forces have conspired to push young women to the left in recent years, including the #MeToo movement, former President Trump, rising LGBTQ identification and, most recently, abortion policy. Slower-cooking trends in marital status and educational attainment have also nudged the needle.  

“I think there is a big generational shift that happened with Generation Z women who were really coming of age in the last five years,” said Kelsy Kretschmer, a sociologist at Oregon State University who studies gender politics.   

The rift between young men and women may widen further. Earlier this year, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, a precedent that had protected abortion as a constitutional right for nearly half a century. The ruling has energized young women. New survey data, released this week, shows that 61 percent of young women consider abortion a critical issue, compared with 36 percent of all Americans. 

 

Link

Edited October 6, 2022 by OverSword

[spartan max2]

Many happy relationships coming  lol

[Knob Oddy]

Very interesting from the article that in 1998 the rates of referring to oneself as "liberal" was equal for men and women.

Not exactly sure what they mean by liberal anymore, but if it's anything to do with feminism or progressivism, then I'm not surprised at the stats now.

Feminism is just man hatred now and infantizling women (who love to be excused for their bad behavior, not all women, just feminists).

A man can consent to sex while drunk. A women cannot. That sounds misogynistic from me, but that it the feminist narrative.

If both a man and woman were drunk, the man should have known that the woman was incapable of consenting.

A question asked of feminists that they cannot answer is: can a woman choose to drink a bottle and a half of wine and then have sex?

 

The fact that men have seen this trend and have hopped off the "liberal" bandwagon has given me hope for the future.

Although woman control the sexual marketplace, men control access to marriage. Looks like there will be lots of lonely women in the future (already 50 percent over 35 are unmarried and childless) . Maybe we can call them InSads, short for involuntarily Sad and lonely

Edited October 6, 2022 by Knob Oddy

[Tatetopa]

28 minutes ago, Knob Oddy said:

If both a man and woman were drunk, the man should have known that the woman was incapable of consenting.

Who knew?  The difference between liberal and conservative comes down to the question the acceptability of a man having sex with a drunk woman.   Didn't know it was so simple

[+OverSword]

Interesting that the article says that rising numbers of identifiers with an LGBTQ lifestyle, the #me too movement and abortion rights are main drivers for females identifying as liberal.  So does that mean that for one reason or another sexual freedom is the main driver of these expanding numbers of liberal women?

[spartan max2]

9 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Interesting that the article says that rising numbers of identifiers with an LGBTQ lifestyle, the #me too movement and abortion rights are main drivers for females identifying as liberal.  So does that mean that for one reason or another sexual freedom is the main driver of these expanding numbers of liberal women?

It may be my own personal bias, but I've always felt woman are more open to socially liberal changes than men are.

Like I think woman mostly started accepting gay marriage before men. I feel like it similar with desegregation and Jim crow in the past, but I'm not super sure about that one.

Edited October 6, 2022 by spartan max2

[+OverSword]

3 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

It may be my own personal bias, but I've always felt woman are more open to socially liberal changes than men are.

Like I think woman mostly started accepting gay marriage before men. I feel like it similar with desegregation and Jim crow in the past, but I'm not super sure about that one.

If you read the article this is a fairly new phenomena and historically the numbers were about equal for both sexes.  It used to be women who were the guardians of traditional values and that has been changing throughout my lifetime.  The reason is (IMO) because sex has been downgraded from it's role as something to be surrounded by moral behavior and respect due to the consequences inherent with engaging in it, to a less meaningful recreational activity due to the advent of birth control and safer methods of abortion taking away most of the consequences and changing the purpose of sex, which is traditionally reproduction.  These changes have given females a new ability to decide things about their lives that they didn't have in the past leading many of them to the correct conclusion that they can choose not to live in that traditional cultural structure and as more of them do so they become more "liberal". 

The other result of these changes is that males on the other hand have had their own traditional role taken from them by the choices given to and made by women, and the ongoing disintegration of that cultural norm has left males feeling lost and wondering about what their purpose is. Men have been told that masculinity is largely "toxic" and that they are now obsolete leading to new levels of depression and dysfunctionality.  Conservative views give men a more concrete feeling about their place and purpose in society so of course they gravitate to that philosophy because it feels more empowering to them.

We are really at the beginnings of this whole revolution which started in the early 1950's with the introduction of the birth control pill.  It would be interesting to see where this all leads in 100 more years.

 

 

[spartan max2]

7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

If you read the article this is a fairly new phenomena and historically the numbers were about equal for both sexes.  It used to be women who were the guardians of traditional values and that has been changing throughout my lifetime.  The reason is (IMO) because sex has been downgraded from it's role as something to be surrounded by moral behavior and respect due to the consequences inherent with engaging in it, to a less meaningful recreational activity due to the advent of birth control and safer methods of abortion taking away most of the consequences and changing the purpose of sex, which is traditionally reproduction.  These changes have given females a new ability to decide things about their lives that they didn't have in the past leading many of them to the correct conclusion that they can choose not to live in that traditional cultural structure and as more of them do so they become more "liberal". 

The other result of these changes is that males on the other hand have had their own traditional role taken from them by the choices given to and made by women, and the ongoing disintegration of that cultural norm has left males feeling lost and wondering about what their purpose is. Men have been told that masculinity is largely "toxic" and that they are now obsolete leading to new levels of depression and dysfunctionality.  Conservative views give men a more concrete feeling about their place and purpose in society so of course they gravitate to that philosophy because it feels more empowering to them.

We are really at the beginnings of this whole revolution which started in the early 1950's with the introduction of the birth control pill.  It would be interesting to see where this all leads in 100 more years.

 

 

Your reasoning actually makes a lot of sense. That's interesting. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by spartan max2

[+OverSword]

14 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Your reasoning actually makes a lot of sense. That's interesting. 

Took me a while to be able to word that without sounding puritanical & bitter 

Edited October 6, 2022 by OverSword

[Knob Oddy]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

Took me a while to be able to word that without sounding bitter 

Maybe I could learn from that! My post was before I had any coffee

 

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Who knew?  The difference between liberal and conservative comes down to the question the acceptability of a man having sex with a drunk woman.   Didn't know it was so simple

Just one example that I'm familiar with. Pick away

[spartan max2]

6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Took me a while to be able to word that without sounding bitter 

Well you worded it well. That seems like a very logical chain of events. 

As you know I do therapy with suicidal youth. And I definitely agree that young men sort of have an identity crisis in modern society. Schools have plenty of groups for woman, minorities, etc, to build them up and help with success, the "future is female" and all that. The celebration of everytime a woman is in a leadership position. Which I think is great. But it sort of also leaves boys feeling left out and forgotten about, with less of a clear identity. When they succeed it isn't really cheered on. So they often fall into right wing internet communities like you said because that gives them more of an identity and talks about them more positivity.

Which I guess leads to the question of do you think that trend will continue or change in the coming decades ?

Edited October 6, 2022 by spartan max2

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Knob Oddy said:

Maybe I could learn from that! My post was before I had any coffee

 

Just one example that I'm familiar with. Pick away

You were right in a way.  During a more traditional time consent was a bit of a given since the person you were going to have sex with was your spouse.  Also why people got married young and why families were larger.

[Knob Oddy]

4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

 So they often fall into right wing internet communities like you said because that gives them more of an identity and talks about them more positivity.

Which I guess leads to the question of do you think that trend will continue or change on the coming decades ?

Hey Spartan. Just wondering if you think thats its a good thing for young men to find a group that makes them feel more positive about their unchangeable characteristics? 

As to your question there is no doubt this trend will continue unless there is massive changes to the narrative around "oppressor" and "oppressed" groups

[Knob Oddy]

7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

You were right in a way.  During a more traditional time consent was a bit of a given since the person you were going to have sex with was your spouse.  Also why people got married young and why families were larger.

Thats true, but my point was more around making women into children who cannot understand the choices they make.

Even in the example that Tat quoted, both the man and woman were drunk, yet Tat left out the man part and just insinuated the woman is incapable of making the same decisions men  can.

 

[+OverSword]

17 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Well you worded it well. That seems like a very logical chain of events. 

As you know I do therapy with suicidal youth. And I definitely agree that young men sort of have an identity crisis in modern society. Schools have plenty of groups for woman, minorities, etc, to build them up and help with success, the "future is female" and all that. The celebration of everytime a woman is in a leadership position. Which I think is great. But it sort of leaves boys feeling left out and forgotten about. When they succeed it isn't really cheered on. So they often fall into right wing internet communities like you said because that gives them more of an identity and talks about them more positivity.

Which I guess leads to the question of do you think that trend will continue or change on the coming decades ?

I think that at some point less emphasis must be put on sex as a recreational activity and a more traditional approach taken towards it and male female relationships or society will become full of more aimless and unhappy people. What can most give meaning to one's life is the responsibility of raising a new generation.  

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by OverSword

[spartan max2]

13 minutes ago, Knob Oddy said:

Hey Spartan. Just wondering if you think thats its a good thing for young men to find a group that makes them feel more positive about their unchangeable characteristics? 

As to your question there is no doubt this trend will continue unless there is massive changes to the narrative around "oppressor" and "oppressed" groups

I mean it really just depends. (To immediately Godwin's law the thread). Using Hitler's youth as a example, gave boys a strong sense of identity and made them feel very positive about themselves and roles. But obviously that came at a cost and was a way to manipulate them.

To be clear, I'm not comparing conservative media on the internet to Hilters youth I just wanted to use an extreme example to establish how it's clearly not always a good thing.

For the current situation it really just depends. All right wing media and communities are not the same. Some internet feeds are designed to put people in a constant state of feeling outraged and oppressed. Extreme left and right internet communities do this I don't think that's good either way. Or when that feeling of identity causes someone to be in places like Qnan and become further detached from reality.

So I would say in general its not bad. It just becomes bad when that feeling of identity and more positive view of yourself gets stroked into rage and bitterness against others. And I do think both far left and right wing internet communities do that in different ways. 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by spartan max2

[+Desertrat56]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Interesting that the article says that rising numbers of identifiers with an LGBTQ lifestyle, the #me too movement and abortion rights are main drivers for females identifying as liberal.  So does that mean that for one reason or another sexual freedom is the main driver of these expanding numbers of liberal women?

Is it sexual freedom or equal freedoms?   It makes sense to me that women tend towards liberalism as that includes all what you call "sexual freedoms" but it also includes empowerment and equality for women, which is why most young men are not liberal leaning, because they think they loose something from that.   Just like the joke - "What is a ****?  A woman that has the sexual morals of a man."    I think that says it all.  Since you are not a woman you might not understand how skewed things still are.

[+Desertrat56]

31 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Took me a while to be able to word that without sounding puritanical & bitter 

Don't worry, the puritanical bitterness was evident.   And the total misunderstanding of women was evident as well.

[Tatetopa]

10 minutes ago, OverSword said:

The reason is (IMO) because sex has been downgraded from it's role as something to be surrounded by moral behavior and respect due to the consequences inherent with engaging in it, to a less meaningful recreational activity due to the advent of birth control and safer methods of abortion taking away most of the consequences and changing the purpose of sex, which is traditionally reproduction. 

Add to that the possibility of women being more independent by entering the workforce.  Compounded by a human desire for more control over their own destinies, women may be feeling more independent and resisting a return to more traditional roles. Having children may be less of a defining factor for female identity.   If they are lonely and looking for a partner  and see many predators among their contacts that are just looking for a quickie, they might get discouraged about the possibility of finding a lifelong partner that wants to be with them and not just what is between their legs.  

 

2 minutes ago, Knob Oddy said:

Even in the example that Tat quoted, both the man and woman were drunk, yet Tat left out the man part and just insinuated the woman is incapable of making the same decisions men  can.

I think women cannot make the same decisions a man can.  Perhaps they are learning not to lose control in mixed situations, if that is what you call making women into children.  Women are naïve if they assume they are safe among acquaintances and friends. If a man gets passed out drunk with his friends he doesn't expect to wake up being gang raped by what he thought were friends.  

It is about more than sex, it is about respect and friendship for other humans.   Men in their traditional roles are quite capable of that quality with other men and with women.  Its easier if one remembers that old golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Most people are looking for friends they can trust.  Nobody wants to be used or ignored or treated as second class.

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Is it sexual freedom or equal freedoms?

When both genders were more tied down to a tradition of responsibility toward the families they mutually produced it was equal freedoms with different duties toward the maintaining of that familial structure.  I know ywhat you will probably say in reply to that so I will just say that most people did indeed take those responsibilities seriously and did devote themselves to that duty which society largely expected them to do and those that did not were frowned on.

[Tatetopa]

29 minutes ago, OverSword said:

During a more traditional time consent was a bit of a given since the person you were going to have sex with was your spouse. 

Maybe consent was not a requirement.

[+Desertrat56]

27 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Well you worded it well. That seems like a very logical chain of events. 

As you know I do therapy with suicidal youth. And I definitely agree that young men sort of have an identity crisis in modern society. Schools have plenty of groups for woman, minorities, etc, to build them up and help with success, the "future is female" and all that. The celebration of everytime a woman is in a leadership position. Which I think is great. But it sort of also leaves boys feeling left out and forgotten about, with less of a clear identity. When they succeed it isn't really cheered on. So they often fall into right wing internet communities like you said because that gives them more of an identity and talks about them more positivity.

Which I guess leads to the question of do you think that trend will continue or change in the coming decades ?

I hope it will change because we start training our sons differently.   All that you describe is due to still training boys as if it is still 1950.   Women have always been the glue that holds society together, able to step in when men go to war, and until WW2 was over quietly stepping back to let the man have his position again, or to cover for him if he could no longer cope.    Women across the ages have never been given enough credit for their role in society in any Roman Empire society (which is what we live in) and it is only recently that the misogyny has been brought out and looked at.   You may think those boys have been subjugated but it is their wrong thinking that has subjugated them, not accolades for women and minorities.   The expectations put on them is the problem, not the lack of accolades.   They still have more control over their lives than most girls their age.

[+Desertrat56]

31 minutes ago, OverSword said:

You were right in a way.  During a more traditional time consent was a bit of a given since the person you were going to have sex with was your spouse.  Also why people got married young and why families were larger.

Oh, are you going to pretend like rape never happened back when men and women were SUPPOSED to be married before they had sex?   Where do you live?

[spartan max2]

3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

When both genders were more tied down to a tradition of responsibility toward the families they mutually produced it was equal freedoms with different duties toward the maintaining of that familial structure.  I know ywhat you will probably say in reply to that so I will just say that most people did indeed take those responsibilities seriously and did devote themselves to that duty which society largely expected them to do and those that did not were frowned on.

How are traditional gender roles more freedom? 

I find it kind of surprising that someone with no children feel that raising a family is the most important aspect of life ? Lol

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Maybe consent was not a requirement.

And still isn't, but knowing every time you do it, that could equal another mouth to feed which has it's own affects on how often you may want to take that risk.  There is a reason abstinence has been considered a virtue.