Who was Moses's pharaoh ?

[ShadowSot]

11 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 So everyone in the written history does not exist and is fictional.? 

Well the Bible isn't a history book. It's bits of history, bits of legend, bits of editorial to make the pieces work. 

 There are real places and people worked into the narrative, but it doesn't prove Moses exists and the exodus narrative happened anymore than real people and places involved in *insert favored fiction here* proves *insert favored fictional character here* exists. 

 

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

The idea that Moses was a real person is tied directly to the reliability of the Bible. Both the Old and New Testaments refer to him as an actual figure; he even appears during the transfiguration of Christ. The considerable evidence proving the Bible’s accuracy likewise reveals that Moses was a real person.

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-Moses-exist.html

However, evidence from the Egyptians and other people in the area reveals that the Exodus never happened.

So:

• A pharaoh ordering the death of all newborn males (or any babies) would have started a revolt.  That's very much against ma'at and any ruler trying to do such an abominable thing would have been murdered very quickly by the priests with help from a lot of others (this "we will kill anyone who desecrates ma'at" held true throughout Egyptian history and is why a mob of Alexandrian citizens killed one of the Ptolemy pharaohs (literally ripped him apart with their hands))
• the idea that Moses would be exiled or killed for killing a man who was beating a slave is absurd.  As the son of the pharaoh's daughter (a member of the court), he was a lawgiver.  If he decided someone should be put to death, that would have happened without repercussions.
• He flees to Midian.  During the New Kingdom, Midian was part of Egypt.  In fact it was also part of Egypt during the Middle Kingdom.  (so he's fleeing from Egypt to... Egypt?  That's not what the Bible says.  However, during the Babylonian Captivity and afterward, Midian was NOT part of Egypt)
• After divine revelation, Moses comes back to Egypt (where the pharaoh and everyone alive suddenly develops both face blindness and amnesia about who he is) to shout "let my people go"
• ...only there aren't many of them in Egypt until about the time of Ramesses, when craftsmen start coming in to help build temples and so forth.
• Pharaoh says "fine.  Leave." and then God decides to play gaslighter and makes him recant... and the plagues (yaddayadda)
• The Bible says 600,000 people left Egypt.  There were between 2 and 4 million people in Egypt along with livestock and other goods (https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/2275/what-was-the-estimated-population-living-in-egypt-around-1446-bc#:~:text=Estimates for the time period,a house without someone dead".) - but none of the cattle counts show a huge loss of livestock, nor does there seem to be a big drop in production or population.
• ...and they leave from Pi-Ramesses (after much griping about having to work there).  Ramesses is a 20th dynasty named city.  So it can't be Akhenaten (18th dynasty).

There's other points, but that's just off the top of my head.

 

 

Midian:

Middle Kingdom Egypt

 

New Kingdom of Egypt

 

 

[docyabut2]

So if the world is destroyed,  we are found  all fictional 

[Kenemet]

6 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Why I thought  Akhenaten could be the pharaoh  and  Moses `s plagues  that hit  Amarna. Akhenaten `s family died  from the plagues. 

 

http://www.geotimes.org/may04/NN_plague.html

And actually, no, Akhenaten's family didn't die from plagues.  We don't know the causes of death (and there were plagues around, yes) but it's pretty clear that Nefertiti and Akhenaten and Semenkare and others of his family lived through them.

[docyabut2]

8 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

And actually, no, Akhenaten's family didn't die from plagues.  We don't know the causes of death (and there were plagues around, yes) but it's pretty clear that Nefertiti and Akhenaten and Semenkare and others of his family lived through them.

 But only a bit more is known of the health of Akhenaten or of his family. He had 6 children by Nefertiti; all were daughters. Many members of his family died during a plague that ravaged his kingdom. 

 

https://www.thecollector.com/akhenaten-monotheism-plague-egypt/

Edited October 14, 2022 by docyabut2

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

12 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

So if the world is destroyed,  we are found  all fictional 

Jesus wept…. That’s NOT what he said.

[docyabut2]

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2715&context=auss

Although the Bible portrays it as a cataclysmic event that heavily devastated the nation (Exod 10:7), we have no evidence that ancient Egypt ever made any historical references to the Exodus of the Hebrews.' But that should not be surprising because of certain aspects of Egyptian culture. One involves the purpose of monumental inscriptions and another the way Egyptians viewed the very nature of writing itself.

[Kenemet]

1 minute ago, docyabut2 said:

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2715&context=auss

Although the Bible portrays it as a cataclysmic event that heavily devastated the nation (Exod 10:7), we have no evidence that ancient Egypt ever made any historical references to the Exodus of the Hebrews.' But that should not be surprising because of certain aspects of Egyptian culture. One involves the purpose of monumental inscriptions and another the way Egyptians viewed the very nature of writing itself.

Anyone who studies Egyptology is made well aware of this.  BUT there's other sources, including diplomatic letters to and from other nations, evidence of destruction, unusual graves (and mass graves), etc, etc.

While it's true that they'd be unlikely to mention the Hebrews (just as US history doesn't mention Puerto Rico for the most part) things like artifacts that are clearly Hebrew (writing, for example) don't lie.

[docyabut2]

So some think it was Ramses II was the Who was Moses's pharaoh but I still  think it was  Akhenaten:) was  against his brother Moses,

https://www.quora.com/Was-Moses-Akhenatens-brother

 

Nope! Moses was of the tribe of Levi. “And a man of the house of Levi went and took as wife a daughter of Levi. So the woman conceived and bore a son. And when she saw that he was a beautiful child, she hid him three months. But when she could no longer hide him, she took an ark of bulrushes for him, daubed it with asphalt and pitch, put the child in it, and laid it in the reeds by the river's bank. And his sister stood afar off, to know what would be done to him” (Exodus 2:1–4).

Edited October 14, 2022 by docyabut2

[cormac mac airt]

32 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

So some think it was Ramses II was the Who was Moses's pharaoh but I still  think it was  Akhenaten:) was  against his brother Moses,

https://www.quora.com/Was-Moses-Akhenatens-brother

 

Nope! Moses was of the tribe of Levi. “And a man of the house of Levi went and took as wife a daughter of Levi. So the woman conceived and bore a son. And when she saw that he was a beautiful child, she hid him three months. But when she could no longer hide him, she took an ark of bulrushes for him, daubed it with asphalt and pitch, put the child in it, and laid it in the reeds by the river's bank. And his sister stood afar off, to know what would be done to him” (Exodus 2:1–4).

The Bible IS NOT a history book. 
 

cormac

[docyabut2]

Edited October 15, 2022 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

7 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The Bible IS NOT a history book. 
 

cormac

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory

the only prehistory

[docyabut2]

Akhenaten's elder brother Thutmose, shown in his role as High Priest of Ptah. Akhenaten became heir to the throne after Thutmose died during their father's reign.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

3 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Akhenaten's elder brother Thutmose, shown in his role as High Priest of Ptah. Akhenaten became heir to the throne after Thutmose died during their father's reign.

Ahh yes, I see it now. High Priest of an Egyptian god is exactly the same as a “Hebrew” Shepard. 

[cormac mac airt]

15 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory

the only prehistory

It’s rather irrelevant to much of actual prehistory or history as most claims in the Bible NEVER happened. 
 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

10 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Ahh yes, I see it now. High Priest of an Egyptian god is exactly the same as a “Hebrew” Shepard. 

But you’re missing it, Thutmose died BEFORE Akhenaten BUT somehow later led the non-existent Hebrew slaves in Egypt to the Promised Land. 
 

Zombie Israelite? 
 

cormac

[Festina]

7 hours ago, Guyver said:

I thought the general consensus is that Moses was a fictional character. 

Legendary..

 

legendary

 

lĕj′ən-dĕr″ē

adjective

1. Of, based on, or discussed in legend.
2.  
3. Extremely well known; famous or renowned.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

27 minutes ago, Festina said:

Legendary..

 

legendary

 

lĕj′ən-dĕr″ē

adjective

1. Of, based on, or discussed in legend.
2.  
3. Extremely well known; famous or renowned.

Arguably, as Moses is part of the foundational mythos of Israel and three religions … he’s mythic, which as any DnD or RPG player will tell you is better than legendary.

[ShadowSot]

56 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Arguably, as Moses is part of the foundational mythos of Israel and three religions … he’s mythic, which as any DnD or RPG player will tell you is better than legendary.

You got to collect two Moses and a mythic element to upgrade him to mythic. 

[Guyver]

1 hour ago, Festina said:

Legendary..

 

legendary

 

lĕj′ən-dĕr″ē

adjective

1. Of, based on, or discussed in legend.
2.  
3. Extremely well known; famous or renowned.

True, but in the context of what was said, legendary meant unlikely.  What the statement means in academic terms is that it is very unlikely that Moses actually lived as the Bible described, but it is possible.

[Tatetopa]

I always thought it was  Ptennisnet   Maybe inappropriate, but it is so seldom I get to use a reference from Asterix.

[Hanslune]

8 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

I’d go with a complete mangling of histories by the original writers between the Hebrews and the Habiru, the latter of which WERE NOT the same people. 
 

cormac

Yeah that too. It's too bad that we'll never know the development and core reasons for all those biblical stories; whether they were just made up, or had some truth behind them.

[Abramelin]

16 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharaohs

 

 

 

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Moses-Hebrew-prophet/Years-and-deeds

[Abramelin]

12 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Hebrews and the Habiru, the latter of which WERE NOT the same people. 

Is it impossible, and if so: why?

[cormac mac airt]

6 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Is it impossible, and if so: why?

Habiru was a social term first coined by the Akkadians and used variously to mean wanderer, vagabond, thief/robber, laborer/servant, etc. whereas Hebrew was an ethnic term for a specific peoples, the Israelites. Keeping in mind that the Israelites were Canaanite in origin to begin with it is likely, IMO, that the word Hapiru/Habiru was conflated with the word Hebrew by later Biblical writers AFTER the Babylonian Captivity, particularly as the two were never confused as being one and the same in earlier texts.

cormac