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Israel must get rid of its nuclear weapons, UN majority decides


OverSword

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18 minutes ago, and-then said:

I base my comments on my religious beliefs, not on politics.  Remember that if I tell you the sun is going to rise tomorrow, that doesn't mean I'm responsible for it happening.  I'm just making an observation.  I don't hate Palestinians or Jews and I don't count the people of Israel as blameless for much that happens there.  Overall, however, it is clear to me that only one of these two nations have ever given on this issue and the Palestinians never yield nor will they ever.  It is their Islamic faith that locks them into this belief system with respect to Israel.

No, it's certainly not only because of their Islamic faith because there are also over 200,000 Palestinian Christians that are also vilified by Israel in fact Israel will not even allow them to visit for Prayer the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. Your comments that it's entirely the Palestinians fault is not accurate. Again, I will say it is not because of their Islamic faith and practices that the majority of Palestinians are locked into a belief system that is against Israel. Your comments only describe the minority who are part of the Iranian Sponsored terrorist organizations who repeatedly attack Israel. The Majority of those killed during those attacks are not involved with the terrorists, and they are innocent Palestinians who end up paying with the blood of their women and children!:(

Persecution of Palestinian Christians: Persecution of Palestinian Christians - Palestine Chronicle

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8 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

No, it's certainly not only because of their Islamic faith because there are also over 200,000 Palestinian Christians that are also vilified by Israel in fact Israel will not even allow them to visit for Prayer the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. Your comments that it's entirely the Palestinians fault is not accurate. Again, I will say it is not because of their Islamic faith and practices that the majority of Palestinians are locked into a belief system that is against Israel. Your comments only describe the minority who are part of the Iranian Sponsored terrorist organizations who repeatedly attack Israel. The Majority of those killed during those attacks are not involved with the terrorists, and they are innocent Palestinians who end up paying with the blood of their women and children!:(

Persecution of Palestinian Christians: Persecution of Palestinian Christians - Palestine Chronicle

Thanks Grim. 

While some people want us to belive that the muslim religion is the main sponsor of the Palestinian-Israely conflict, that cannot be further from the truth. AT and people like him will always blame only Islam. However, the truth is that the first Palestinians who stood up to defend Palestine were - Christian Palestinians. Obviously AT cannot comprehend that inbetween Palestinians religion is secondary, being a Palestinian is primary to all. The christians are becoming a minority, not because of muslims Palestinians, but because of the Israely occupation, torture and killings. On top of that, those who left are not allowed to return as per Israel.

While the Palestinian towns and villages are full of christmas lights, while christians and muslims celebrate christmas together in Palestine, Palestinian Christians are not allowed to freely celebrate in Israel or to visit the christian holy sides. Not because they are christians but because they are proud palestinians.

 

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Here we go again. And christians and muslims will be blamed again:

Jordan king warns of ‘red lines’ in Jerusalem as Netanyahu returns to office

Jordan’s Hashemite monarchy has been the custodian of Jerusalem’s holy sites since 1924 and sees itself as the guarantor of the religious rights of Muslims and Christians in the city.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/28/middleeast/jordan-king-warns-israel-jerusalem-mime-intl/index.html

Hope they can talk it out. For the sake of all in that region.

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15 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Your comments only describe the minority who are part of the Iranian Sponsored terrorist organizations who repeatedly attack Israel.

Would that be the same ones who begin indoctrination for those kids at kindergarten age?  Those?  I really don't care about it being not PC to tell the truth about whose fault the problem is.  If there are Jews who are trained to hate practically from the crib, I'll call them out as well.  

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1 minute ago, and-then said:

Would that be the same ones who begin indoctrination for those kids at kindergarten age?  Those?  I really don't care about it being not PC to tell the truth about whose fault the problem is.  If there are Jews who are trained to hate practically from the crib, I'll call them out as well.  

Well start Screaming ( call them out ) because yes RightWing Jews are taught to hate from the crib, just like radically indoctrinated Palestinians are. However, in both cases I sincerely believe they are the minority. However, you can deny it or wrap it anyway you choose too the facts are the facts. Every time, Hamas or another Iranian sponsored terrorist organization attacks Israel and Israel responds the terrorists aren’t paying in blood and being killed.

Because, they set up their rocket, mortar and artillery firing positions in areas using Palestinians Civilians as human shields. Palestinian Civilians ( mostly women and children ) not involved with the terrorists in anyway are always the majority of those killed or injured in those Exchanges.

Now, the other day you thanked me for responding to a question you asked me honestly in another thread and Ithanked you for doing the same thing.:yes:

1. Here, is the question taking into consideration that when terrorists organizations attack Israel and Israel responds that more non-combatant Palestinian civilians not involved with the terrorists in anyway are kill. Can you not expect the families of those civilians to choose radicalization and join the terrorists organizations???

2. Since the border clashes began which side had more people pay with blood and where kill the Palestinians or the Israelis???

Please answer these questions you, at times have a habit of not responding if you are confronted with a question you know the answer too, yet don’t wish to admit. I can honestly say I don’t do the same thing. In order for us to communicate respectfully we can’t treat each other disrespectful, and I enjoy conversations with you because you often add interesting information but you may certainly not feel the same way about me, which is cool!:tu:

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5 hours ago, odas said:

Here we go again. And christians and muslims will be blamed again:

Jordan king warns of ‘red lines’ in Jerusalem as Netanyahu returns to office

Jordan’s Hashemite monarchy has been the custodian of Jerusalem’s holy sites since 1924 and sees itself as the guarantor of the religious rights of Muslims and Christians in the city.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/28/middleeast/jordan-king-warns-israel-jerusalem-mime-intl/index.html

Hope they can talk it out. For the sake of all in that region.

I certainly do also, however Netanyahu‘s ( I prefer BB ) Government is made up of far RightWing members so only time will tell if it can be settled peacefully, like you I certainly hope so!:tu:

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7 hours ago, odas said:

Thanks Grim. 

While some people want us to belive that the muslim religion is the main sponsor of the Palestinian-Israely conflict, that cannot be further from the truth. AT and people like him will always blame only Islam. However, the truth is that the first Palestinians who stood up to defend Palestine were - Christian Palestinians. Obviously AT cannot comprehend that inbetween Palestinians religion is secondary, being a Palestinian is primary to all. The christians are becoming a minority, not because of muslims Palestinians, but because of the Israely occupation, torture and killings. On top of that, those who left are not allowed to return as per Israel.

While the Palestinian towns and villages are full of christmas lights, while christians and muslims celebrate christmas together in Palestine, Palestinian Christians are not allowed to freely celebrate in Israel or to visit the christian holy sides. Not because they are christians but because they are proud palestinians.

 

Your comments are accurate based upon what I personally know and have seen, I spent some time being trained in Desert operation in Israel. While certainly don’t hate either side ( only the Iranian sponsored terrorists) I certainly sympathize with the Palestinians who are not involved in terrorists actives because far more of them are killed than the terrorists or the Israelis in the border charges that occurred!:(

Do your remember our discussion about my views concerning Muslims we had a few months back?

Well, since that time I have tried to be undoubtedly clear so my comments are not misinterpreted again, your point was well taken. One thing is for certain I can and do except constructive criticism without hesitation if it’s valid!:yes:

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On 12/28/2022 at 7:05 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

No, it's certainly not only because of their Islamic faith because there are also over 200,000 Palestinian Christians that are also vilified by Israel in fact Israel will not even allow them to visit for Prayer the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. Your comments that it's entirely the Palestinians fault is not accurate. Again, I will say it is not because of their Islamic faith and practices that the majority of Palestinians are locked into a belief system that is against Israel. Your comments only describe the minority who are part of the Iranian Sponsored terrorist organizations who repeatedly attack Israel. The Majority of those killed during those attacks are not involved with the terrorists, and they are innocent Palestinians who end up paying with the blood of their women and children!:(

Persecution of Palestinian Christians: Persecution of Palestinian Christians - Palestine Chronicle

During the early 20th Century when the Rothschilds started investing in the British Mandate of Palestine with a view to creating a state for the Jews, the plan among the Zionists was always to have a poly-religious and ethnically tolerant state.  As land was bought, it was always purchased at over the market value so as not to run into the "beads and trinkets" issue that served as a black mark on US history.  Many Jordanians were hired on to perform building work in the region, which was sparsely populated with a tiny Palestinian Arab  population since the Ottoman occupation.  Then in the 1930s, the Grand Mufti of Palestine initiated hostilities by getting Muslims to tattack Jews at the Wailing Wall, precipitating a war of terror against them on the grounds that in Islam, land that has been held by the faith of Islam can never be relinquished, and Judaism was clearly another faith.  The Grand Mufti was also a huge fan of Adolf Hitler and seriously thought that Hitler would liberate his people.  The fact was however that the Palestinian Arabs had already made peace with Israel and still live in Israel today.  The people we call "Palestinians" are actually the Jordanian itinerant laborers who had been promised the Jewish land when the Jews were pushed back into the Sea.  In short, history shows that the real Palestinians are accommodated, and the people we call Palestinians today are actually Jordanians.  Were there Palestinian Arabs in Jordan?  Yes, a few, but they weren't in a hurry to go home with all the trouble. 

I repudiate any claim of the so-called Palestinians.  Their claim is as baseless as if someone hired builders to put up a house on their land, and then the builders having been paid in full decided the house and land was theirs.

I am also not very fond of the Palestinians I met.  Their treatment of their children is appalling.  Not only are they frequently put in houses where militants are hiding, so that Israeli rocket attacks will kill them and the Palestinians can claim the strike as an Israeli atrocity, but personally I went to the Gaza Strip and was treated with great hospitality due to my skill in Arabic and related languages.  They even offered to have me sleep with their little daughter.  When I looked queasy at the prospect, they laughed and apologized that she was so ugly, and offered me their 3 year old son instead.  Yeah, it was a "joke", but it also wasn't, as child prostitution is rife in the culture, as I later found out.  The so-called Palestinians authorities are so totally corrupt that they even sold concrete donated to help them rebuild their houses (demolished by the Israelis to remove fighters) was sold to Israel to help them build the wall between Israel and Palestine. Palestine isn't a state, it's a criminal racket imo.

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28 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

During the early 20th Century when the Rothschilds started investing in the British Mandate of Palestine with a view to creating a state for the Jews, the plan among the Zionists was always to have a poly-religious and ethnically tolerant state.  As land was bought, it was always purchased at over the market value so as not to run into the "beads and trinkets" issue that served as a black mark on US history.  Many Jordanians were hired on to perform building work in the region, which was sparsely populated with a tiny Palestinian Arab  population since the Ottoman occupation..Then in the 1930s, the Grand Mufti of Palestine initiated hostilities by getting Muslims to tattack Jews at the Wailing Wall, precipitating a war of terror against them on the grounds that in Islam, land that has been held by the faith of Islam can never be relinquished, and Judaism was clearly another faith The Grand Mufti was also a huge fan of Adolf Hitler and seriously thought that Hitler would liberate his people.  The fact was however that the Palestinian Arabs had already made peace with Israel and still live in Israel today.  The people we call "Palestinians" are actually the Jordanian itinerant laborers who had been promised the Jewish land when the Jews were pushed back into the Sea.  In short, history shows that the real Palestinians are accommodated, and the people we call Palestinians today are actually Jordanians.  Were there Palestinian Arabs in Jordan?  Yes, a few, but they weren't in a hurry to go home with all the trouble.

Before, I even reply I must offer you a sincere apology for comments i made in the Ukraine thread where I questioned you in a manner I am not proud of concerning Russia’s Nuclear Weapons, I hope you will except it and allow to be water underneath a Bridge.

My knowledge, of what is known as Palestinians today is almost non-existent because have never been interested in that topic to be very honest. My, knowledge of the conflict starts with the award of the mandate which also endorsed the 1917 Balfour Declaration, The award of the mandate also endorsed the 1917 Balfour Declaration, in which Britain expressed support for “a national home for the Jewish people” in Palestine. Then, in 1948, exhausted by World War II and the strain of holding warring Jewish and Arab forces apart, the British withdrew this withdrawal is what allowed Israel to become a independent State.

This, this peeled off the Arab world and especially the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a Sunni Muslim cleric in charge of Jerusalem's Islamic holy places, including the Al-Aqsa Mosque. In 1948, after Jordan occupied Jerusalem, Abdullah I of Jordan officially removed al-Husayni from the post, banned him from entering Jerusalem, and appointed Hussam Al-din Jarallah as Grand Mufti. At midnight on May 14, 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed a new State of Israel. On that same date, the United States, in the person of President Truman, recognized the provisional Jewish government as the de facto authority of the Jewish state.

The U.S. delegates to the U.N. and top-ranking State Department officials were angered that Truman released his recognition statement to the press without notifying them first. On May 15, 1948, the first day of Israeli Independence and exactly one year after UNSCOP was established, Arab armies invaded Israel and the first Arab-Israeli war began. This is where knowledge of the subject begins and from that point forward I can discuss all the major conflicts that followed. However, like I said above it does include who the all the Arab people came from or who they are on Israel’s border, except for the other Nation States.

1. 1948–49: Israel’s War of Independence and the Palestinian Nakbah

2. 1956 - 1957: Suez Canal Conflict

3. 1967: The Six Day War:

4. 1973: Yom Kippur War:

5. 1982: Lebanon War

6. 2006: Second Lebanon War

 

 

28 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I repudiate any claim of the so-called Palestinians.  Their claim is as baseless as if someone hired builders to put up a house on their land, and then the builders having been paid in full decided the house and land was theirs

I will not argue the subject with you, I know nothing about that specific topic. However, I trust you enough to say without hesitation that I believe what your saying completely.

28 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I am also not very fond of the Palestinians I met.  Their treatment of their children is appalling.  Not only are they frequently put in houses where militants are hiding, so that Israeli rocket attacks will kill them and the Palestinians can claim the strike as an Israeli atrocity, but personally I went to the Gaza Strip and was treated with great hospitality due to my skill in Arabic and related languages.  They even offered to have me sleep with their little daughter.  When I looked queasy at the prospect, they laughed and apologized that she was so ugly, and offered me their 3 year old son instead.  Yeah, it was a "joke", but it also wasn't, as child prostitution is rife in the culture, as I later found out.  The so-called Palestinians authorities are so totally corrupt that they even sold concrete donated to help them rebuild their houses (demolished by the Israelis to remove fighters) was sold to Israel to help them build the wall between Israel and Palestine. Palestine isn't a state, it's a criminal racket imo.

I have no reference, to put into context that would disagree with your assessment of those people today that are beccalling the Palestinian. I have only been to Israel once, I participated in a joint desert warfare training exercise in Israel with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for a couple months. However, there was little time to do anything else and that my only experience inside Israel itself. Now, I do have first hand experience with Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq along with most of the different groups that make up those countries. I speak very good Kurdish, and very poor Arabic but I can speak well enough to in most cases get my point across, but that’s where my Arabic language skill  ends. One, thing that seems strange to is your explanation of how the Palestinian offered their children to you fir sexual purposes. I have never heard or been involved in a situation where anything like that has occurred, because I would have beat the crap out if the guy  in the countries I worked in that I mentioned above. I am aware that homosexuality between young unmarried makes is acceptable in many countries in the Middle East.

The term used is pleasure partners and it’s allowed to some extent until a man becomes married. However, in many situations the individuals who are involved with the Arabs are in many cases young males from a Asian background and in many cases they are Pilipino. Well, the Palestinians must be a completely  didn’t type of Arabs than I have ever meet, because from my experience in the Arab countries I mentioned the fathers and mothers love their their children as much as any American I know. As far as prostitution is concerned I know it exists in the Middle East and in some Asian countries. Yes sadly, I heard rumors that child are involved in a trade known as Sexual Tourism, however over the 10 years I worked in the Middle East I was married so my knowledge of any sexual behaviors are non-Existent.

Even though I am a ******* at times, during my entire life I have been loyal to any woman I had a committed relationship with even as a teenager. In, addition  since December 31,1986 when my and I married  I have not had any form of sexual relationship within anyone except my loving wife. Corruption though is rife around the entire world, even in the dam United States and that embarrassing to me as an American. The only people that I would trust with my life of the lives of my teams were the IDF, and the Kurdish people. I used the same Kurdish interpreter and security force across my 10 year service as a Contractor. There, we’re many times where we were engaged and my Kurdish support put their lives online, and sadly in Syria in 2017 one them was killed protecting members one of teams.

My, experience with Arabs for the most was different than yours and from what you explained above I am glad it was more positive than yours.Even, when I went to Kurdistan with my interpreter to visit his family, I was treated very well by everyone and I had wonderful time. I was surprised because the United States has repeatedly used the Kurds and then dump them when they were no longer need which p***ed me  off. While, contractors were supposed to be non-combatants, US Military Commanders over looked it. So, I always had a Barrett M82 Semiautomatic 50 Cal Sniper Rifle, and my team members had M4 Carbines along with pistols. I was the only one who carried a Tokarev Russian TT-33 Cal. 7.62x25mm Pistol and my other personal carried Beretta M9, 9mm pistols.

Well, dude may you and your loved ones have a happy, Healthy, and prosperous New Year. 

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On 12/23/2022 at 10:45 PM, joc said:

Ah, but wait .... the Palestinian's didn't actually have any land...Israel didn't 'take' land away from the Palestinians...they simply assessed a threat correctly and chose to act against that threat before the threat was realized...hence...the 6 day war.  The land they took was occupied by what we know today as the Palestinians...but it wasn't really there land.  It was Egypt's land.  So, now, I know you are incredibly smart...please...correct me where I am wrong....because I'm just going from memory and that can be an interesting trip into the surreal all by it's self.

Flattery will get you everywhere, bub :)

Many Palestinians had title to the land and homes they owned. Now, show me where praying to God a certain way entitles you to someone's land. Hmmmm,.,.

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On 12/24/2022 at 12:39 PM, and-then said:

I'm content to stand on what I believe.  The suffering of the Palestinian Arabs who live in proximity to the Jewish state is due to their decision to CHOOSE to fight rather than have peace and prosperity.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to. We agree to disagree. 
The only way the Palestinians would ever get peace from the invading Jews is to give them their land. And that just isn't going to happen.

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13 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Flattery will get you everywhere, bub :)

Many Palestinians had title to the land and homes they owned. Now, show me where praying to God a certain way entitles you to someone's land. Hmmmm,.,.

Well, Allah walks in mysterious way. Means, all what happens in ME is Allah's will...

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On 12/30/2022 at 6:42 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

My, experience with Arabs for the most was different than yours and from what you explained above I am glad it was more positive than yours.Even, when I went to Kurdistan with my interpreter to visit his family, I was treated very well by everyone and I had wonderful time. I was surprised because the United States has repeatedly used the Kurds and then dump them when they were no longer need which p***ed me  off. While, contractors were supposed to be non-combatants, US Military Commanders over looked it. So, I always had a Barrett M82 Semiautomatic 50 Cal Sniper Rifle, and my team members had M4 Carbines along with pistols. I was the only one who carried a Tokarev Russian TT-33 Cal. 7.62x25mm Pistol and my other personal carried Beretta M9, 9mm pistols.

Well, dude may you and your loved ones have a happy, Healthy, and prosperous New Year. 

Over the years I have tried to rationalize my experiences and put them in perspective.  My travels in the Middle East gave me PTSD.  As far as Kurds go, I am impressed with their behavior in the Syrian Civil war.  US foreign policy towards them would be easier if the US wasn't trying to stay on the good side of the Turks.  I spent a long time in the Middle East and initially my impressions were as favorable as your own, in fact I was pro=Palestinian, but as I got to know the many peoples of the Middle East better, I realized that I don't like them much for all sorts of reasons.

Happy New year to you and your family GR6.

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1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

Over the years I have tried to rationalize my experiences and put them in perspective.  My travels in the Middle East gave me PTSD.  As far as Kurds go, I am impressed with their behavior in the Syrian Civil war.  US foreign policy towards them would be easier if the US wasn't trying to stay on the good side of the Turks.I spent a long time in the Middle East and initially my impressions were as favorable as your own, in fact I was pro=Palestinian, but as I got to know the many peoples of the Middle East better, I realized that I don't like them much for all sorts of reasons.

Happy New year to you and your family GR6.

I had three combat tours, I spent between 4-8 months per year for eleven years in the Middle East, Depending upon our mission we could be heading to Iraq, or Syria from our base of Operations at Camp Vance Bagram Air Base Afghanistan. My myself, teams, Kurdish interpreter and my Kurdish security people always traveled together, so my experience with the Kurds was very positive over my tour of duty and the 11 year period I worked as a contractor. Sincerely, I trusted no other indigenous Middle Eastern peoples only the Kurds and I was never disappointed with their performance of their duties. 

In 1999, I was diagnosed with PTSD myself and I still suffer sleep loss to this day even with medication. I joined the Army in 1978 and retired  2003, when I retired I was awarded 100% disability from the Veterans Administration in addition to my retirement then in 2005 I hired as a contractor and asked to assemble teams which I did. I understand where coming from however I never experienced some of the things you did. Anyway, thanks for the kind reply and have a great New Year.:tu:

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On 12/30/2022 at 9:02 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to. We agree to disagree. 
The only way the Palestinians would ever get peace from the invading Jews is to give them their land. And that just isn't going to happen.

As you say, we can agree to disagree.  Your claim that the "invading " Jews would eventually take all of the land the Palestinians live on or lived on in the past is not supported by the facts in evidence today.  Even if one accepts that the Zionist Jews who moved there from the diaspora were "invaders" rather than settlers who purchased clearly deeded land, it remains a fact that it is the Palestinian people who have rejected peace offers on multiple occasions and their leaders have consistently told the people that the struggle will never end until they have all of the land the Jews currently live on.  One of their most popular slogans is "Palestine will be free from the river to the sea".

Palestine_ Land Day | Cartoon Movement

I'm curious about how you reconcile that fact with the claim that it is the Israelis who refuse peace and only want to eventually remove all Palestinians.  While it's true that land claimed by Palestinians has been built on and then the structures destroyed by Israel and Israelis have taken possession, they have also made MANY concessions in efforts to find peace and end the bloodshed.

Here is a timeline of peace offers:

https://foreigndesknews.com/human-rights/timeline-of-peace-proposals-rejected-by-the-palestinians/

The single commonality is that the Palestinian leadership has always rejected the offers either outright or they have accepted concessions - like Sharon's unilateral hand over of Gaza as a goodwill gesture - and then the Palestinian leaders have simply taken the gift and rededicated their efforts to attack, kill, and gain more land in the same way.  This is the reality.  So I guess the question is, do you believe there should be any Jews of European descent allowed to live on that land, even if they were born there in later generations?  If not, do you believe killing them is a valid means to return the land to those who claim total and complete right to be there with no exceptions?

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15 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

As far as Kurds go, I am impressed with their behavior in the Syrian Civil war.  US foreign policy towards them would be easier if the US wasn't trying to stay on the good side of the Turks.

Trump only made a handful of decisions in foreign policy that I REALLY disagreed with and abandoning the Kurds was top of that list.  When viewed in the light of our actions in Ukraine, it's REALLY disgusting.  Any ally that stays true and is willing to fight and die on our behalf, has an absolute right to support.

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On 12/28/2022 at 6:24 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

taking into consideration that when terrorists organizations attack Israel and Israel responds that more non-combatant Palestinian civilians not involved with the terrorists in anyway are kill. Can you not expect the families of those civilians to choose radicalization and join the terrorists organizations?

I just saw this today.  I have a bad habit of taking part in discussions in a hit-or-miss way, sometimes.  I just bounce around. 

The answer is that yes, I understand the nature of how this conflict is perpetuated.  The tit for tat cycle of killing is what causes people on both sides to hate, but I'd ask in return, do you believe that the desire of the Palestinians is to live at peace with Israelis on a piece of land of any size, in Palestine?

On 12/28/2022 at 6:24 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Since the border clashes began which side had more people pay with blood and where kill the Palestinians or the Israelis???

Undoubtedly, the Palestinians have died at a FAR higher number.  You have been in combat.  You also understand the idea that innocents are sometimes killed unintentionally as a result of the firepower employed.  I dislike the term "collateral damage" but it sums up what is occurring.  I agree that non-combatants should never be targeted and I do not believe the IDF targets civilians intentionally.  You may disagree and we can still carry on a discussion.  I believe that when civilians are intentionally placed in areas where they are almost certainly going to be killed or wounded - like your example - then it is not the fault of the force responding to the initial provocation. 

Can you see that if the IDF limited itself to only returning fire where they KNEW there could not be civilians, they'd basically be surrendering?  The use of such "human shields" has been a strategy for Palestinian fighters for decades.  Alan Dershowitz coined the term "Dead baby strategy" a few years ago and while disgusting, it's also accurate.  

On 12/28/2022 at 6:24 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

yes RightWing Jews are taught to hate from the crib, just like radically indoctrinated Palestinians are. However, in both cases I sincerely believe they are the minority

My only answer on this is that while it's likely true that the settlers and orthodox Jews (far fewer than 50% of total Israelis) raise their children to hate or distrust Palestinians, TMK, there are no state-sponsored books and other teaching materials in Israeli schools that do so.  In UNRWA (Palestinian schools) schools, most of their textbooks, even math texts, are used for such indoctrination.  If you have examples of Israeli schools doing this I'll gladly acknowledge their guilt, as well.  No one should teach children to hate.  

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1 hour ago, and-then said:

I just saw this today.  I have a bad habit of taking part in discussions in a hit-or-miss way, sometimes.  I just bounce around. 

The answer is that yes, I understand the nature of how this conflict is perpetuated.  The tit for tat cycle of killing is what causes people on both sides to hate, but I'd ask in return, do you believe that the desire of the Palestinians is to live at peace with Israelis on a piece of land of any size, in Palestine?

Well, in the not so distant past Jews, Christians and Palestinians all lived peacefully without any conflict based upon religious ideology. The problem didn’t begin to occur until the complete down fall of the Ottoman Empire. Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire during the First World War, both the Zionist movement and the Palestinian national movement began trying to take control of that identity and define the people of the land as either Jewish Zionists or Palestinian Arabs. There were those who called for unity, such as Jerusalem Mayor Raghib al-Nashashibi, who wanted not to speak of Arabs and Jews, but of Palestinians. Klein debunks the myth according to which the residents of the country before the advent Zionism or the Arab national movement lacked all identity. Instead, he describes a lively and vivacious community with its own traditions and customs, bringing testimonies from Jews, Muslims and foreigners as proof.

The European foreigners who came here were the ones to form a wedged between the partners to this quasi-utopia. Yeshayahu Peres, who put together the historical-geographical encyclopedia of the Land of Israel, complained that when the Ashkenazi Jews immigrated they brought with them their customs, clothing, and lifestyle, and did not adapt to the cultures of Palestine: “They speak Yiddish and maintain the Jewish street accent of their home countries. They are different from their Sephardic brothers not only in language and appearance but also in their worldview.” Both Zionism and Arab nationalism came to Palestine from outside the country. The two movements developed in the diaspora but both saw the territory between the river and the sea as part of their war for control; they drew borders in a place that had been borderless at the expense of those who lived here. Palestinian residents distinguished between “Arab Jews” — a common identity of Jews who were either born here or in other Arab countries — and Jewish immigrants from Europe who arrived to redefine the land.

‘Above is where the current issues in Palestine began and it was foreigners both Arab, and Jew who are responsible for what we see today.

 

1 hour ago, and-then said:

Undoubtedly, the Palestinians have died at a FAR higher number.  You have been in combat.  You also understand the idea that innocents are sometimes killed unintentionally as a result of the firepower employed.  I dislike the term "collateral damage" but it sums up what is occurring.  I agree that non-combatants should never be targeted and I do not believe the IDF targets civilians intentionally.  You may disagree and we can still carry on a discussion.  I believe that when civilians are intentionally placed in areas where they are almost certainly going to be killed or wounded - like your example - then it is not the fault of the force responding to the initial provocation.

 Can you see that if the IDF limited itself to only returning fire where they KNEW there could not be civilians, they'd basically be surrendering?  The use of such "human shields" has been a strategy for Palestinian fighters for decades.  Alan Dershowitz coined the term "Dead baby strategy" a few years ago and while disgusting, it's also accurate..

I don’t have enough experience to agree or disagree if the IDF intentionally targets Arab Civilians intentionally or not so on that point I will follow your lead. Well, the problem is the fact that the Iranian sponsored terrorist organizations are placing civilians intentionally in the line of fire. Every time, a mother, father or children are killed because of this the terrorist organizations automatically get new recruits. I think Israeli would be much better served in the future to invade areas where terrorist are attacking them from and destroy the terrorist infestation in a similar manner to the way ISIS gas been brought to its knees in Syria and Iraq. Once areas are over run by the IDF, the Civilian population should be rounded up and given an alternative to the current tit for tat.

Along the lines of protecting them as long as they agree and follow guidelines set by Israel. The wording you used above concerning human shields and that it’s Palestinian Fighters that are  responsible for it is something I disagree with respectfully. The majority of the terrorist fighters are not Palestinians, based upon what I have learned over more than 12 years including my Combat Tours in the Middle East. The actual terrorist are multicultural, and they come from country all over the Middle East, not to say that there are not true Palestinians along them. As a two prong approach, if I were the Israeli Leader I would force bordering Arab Nations where attacks frequently occur from to either expel the Terrorist Organizations or that Nation will also be considered a belligerent threat equal to the Terrorist organizations using their territory.

To my knowledge actions like I have described above have never taken place. I fully realize what such actions would incur, however the losses of life and the damage in ly opinion would be worth fighting for. Honestly, I see no other way than by forceful actions to solve this problem. If bordering Nation refuse to except their culpability, then I believe regime change is necessary and I would personally support it. Now, as a military planner if I were asked to participate in developing  plans for a finally end to the tit for tat that is the recommendation and plan I would provide. If it where implemented and if the innocent civilians were treated as equals after the conflict ended I believe that life could return to the pre-WWII condition I posted above. However, if the tit for tat is allowed to continue sooner of later I am afraid Israel will pay a very high price. Eventually, one of the Terrorist Organizations will somehow get their dirty hands on a weapon of mass destruction and use it successfully against Israeli it only a matter of time. It’s also something I NEVER want to see occur in life time, but that is coming just like 9/11 came to the United States. 

1 hour ago, and-then said:

My only answer on this is that while it's likely true that the settlers and orthodox Jews (far fewer than 50% of total Israelis) raise their children to hate or distrust Palestinians, TMK, there are no state-sponsored books and other teaching materials in Israeli schools that do so.  In UNRWA (Palestinian schools) schools, most of their textbooks, even math texts, are used for such indoctrination.  If you have examples of Israeli schools doing this I'll gladly acknowledge their guilt, as well.  No one should teach children to hate.  

Well, I think at this point in time that the hare generated on both sides must end. Unfortunately, there is no way to accomplish it without a similar conflict to that I gave described above. Now, I suspect when you read my comments you going think this guy is completely F-ing Nuts. Well, that’s certainly possible, and I will respect you either way, you see I learned as a military planner that when anyone complains about any situation but isn’t able to offer any solution that the individuals complains are valueless. We see people all complain and never offer a solution whether it’s good or bad, well I was taught that when someone faces a problem if they only precieve it from a problematic state of mind, the issue will never go away, and the individual will certainly succumb to the very situation they fear eventually.

Hey Dude thanks for your response, I enjoyed reading you comments. I just look at things from a different perspective, I am not saying either of us is right or wrong I believe we both would like to see similar outcome, but based upon our experiences we approach things from a different manner and there is nothing wrong with that at all!:tu:

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10 hours ago, and-then said:

Trump only made a handful of decisions in foreign policy that I REALLY disagreed with and abandoning the Kurds was top of that list.  When viewed in the light of our actions in Ukraine, it's REALLY disgusting.  Any ally that stays true and is willing to fight and die on our behalf, has an absolute right to support.

I agree, but the USA somewhat has its hands tied.  Really it was the Treaty of Lausanne and the Sykes-Picot Agreement that has made life impossible for the Kurds.  It was a huge gift to Turkey and a terrible thing for everyone else.  As a result of those agreements, the Kurds have had an appalling time getting themselves on the map of the ME, and that makes it hard for the USA to recognize them without utterly alienating Turkey who are completely unreasonable on the issue, as if they give in to one minority, there are another half dozen lining up for "theirs".  These days a lot of borders that are "bad" are in place, and there is no way people will move those borders without spilling blood.  Even the UN has huge trouble with the idea, despite the wars "smart" borders might prevent.  For example, the Azeris and the Armenians could just swap their enclave lands in each others' territories, but they'd rather go to war.  Go figure.  As for Turkey and the Kurds, well there has been an ongoing insurrection in Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran to give the Kurds a homeland, and now they have a semi-autonomous state in Northern Iraq, and a slice or 2 of Syria which the Turks are eager to destroy.  The USA sort of needs the Turks in NATO, because of their control of the Bosphorus, and unfortunately that means putting up with their regional shenanigans.

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On 12/30/2022 at 8:53 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Flattery will get you everywhere, bub :)

Many Palestinians had title to the land and homes they owned. Now, show me where praying to God a certain way entitles you to someone's land. Hmmmm,.,.

Well, we kind of look at Mexico the same way...we came into the territory and started squatting and the next thing  you know...dude...Indians and Mexicans were killing us left and right...so we said...hell no you can't take our land...and we fought 'em back and kept our land...suckers!  ...ya know?

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On 1/1/2023 at 10:50 PM, and-then said:

As you say, we can agree to disagree.  Your claim that the "invading " Jews would eventually take all of the land the Palestinians live on or lived on in the past is not supported by the facts in evidence today.  Even if one accepts that the Zionist Jews who moved there from the diaspora were "invaders" rather than settlers who purchased clearly deeded land, it remains a fact that it is the Palestinian people who have rejected peace offers on multiple occasions and their leaders have consistently told the people that the struggle will never end until they have all of the land the Jews currently live on.  One of their most popular slogans is "Palestine will be free from the river to the sea".

Palestine_ Land Day | Cartoon Movement

I'm curious about how you reconcile that fact with the claim that it is the Israelis who refuse peace and only want to eventually remove all Palestinians.  While it's true that land claimed by Palestinians has been built on and then the structures destroyed by Israel and Israelis have taken possession, they have also made MANY concessions in efforts to find peace and end the bloodshed.

Here is a timeline of peace offers:

https://foreigndesknews.com/human-rights/timeline-of-peace-proposals-rejected-by-the-palestinians/

The single commonality is that the Palestinian leadership has always rejected the offers either outright or they have accepted concessions - like Sharon's unilateral hand over of Gaza as a goodwill gesture - and then the Palestinian leaders have simply taken the gift and rededicated their efforts to attack, kill, and gain more land in the same way.  This is the reality.  So I guess the question is, do you believe there should be any Jews of European descent allowed to live on that land, even if they were born there in later generations?  If not, do you believe killing them is a valid means to return the land to those who claim total and complete right to be there with no exceptions?


The whole problem that you don't see is, the Palestinians should not have to be in a position of defending themselves. 
the Jews - yes of course ,originally bought Palestinian land, but that ended in the 1940's when they then just stole the land they wanted. 
Then the Jews (Israeli's) make some motion to peace but we all know what that means, the Jews own the land and giving the land 
back will *never* be part of a so-called peace agreement. Nor will allowing reentry to those Palestinians exiled from the land. Ain't happening. 

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3 minutes ago, joc said:

Well, we kind of look at Mexico the same way...we came into the territory and started squatting and the next thing  you know...dude...Indians and Mexicans were killing us left and right...so we said...hell no you can't take our land...and we fought 'em back and kept our land...suckers!  ...ya know?


The huge problem is, Joc, there is no place left for the Palestinians to go. This sucks. forever

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On 1/3/2023 at 7:47 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

the Jews own the land and giving the land 
back will *never* be part of a so-called peace agreement. Nor will allowing reentry to those Palestinians exiled from the land. Ain't happening. 

True.  Also true is that it is the Palestinians who have absolutely refused to give an inch and as long as they hold that position there will never be peace.  At least not until they are finally completely defeated.  They could have peace if they were willing to compromise and give up some of the land they claim.  They raise their children to hate and to doggedly demand to return to every square inch of Palestine.  Last I checked, the Jews have lived on that land now for over 70 years and they've built a prosperous nation there.  Do you believe they should have to give in to the demands of the Palestinians?  Do you really think they'd ever agree to leave and go back to Europe?  

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On 1/3/2023 at 7:48 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:


The huge problem is, Joc, there is no place left for the Palestinians to go. This sucks. forever

This isn't accurate.  They have Gaza and they could have a substantial portion of Palestine IF they were willing to compromise and stick to an agreement.  The main problem is that their leaders are corrupt and have kept promising their people they WILL return to ALL THE LAND and if they ever change their message, especially after all of the "martyrs" over the years, the leaders will likely be the next target of the people rather than the Jews.

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On 1/5/2023 at 8:18 PM, and-then said:

Do you believe they should have to give in to the demands of the Palestinians?  Do you really think they'd ever agree to leave and go back to Europe?  

I would prefer to see the UN or League of Nations set the demands (or enforce them) to straighten out the mess, if possible

The Euro Jews would never agree to go back. It's do-or-die for one or the other. 

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