Heaven

[XenoFish]

Just now, Cookie Monster said:

Yes, you commit the cardinal sin of not being a hedonist lol.

I'd rather not be a b****** thank you very much. 

[Guyver]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:16 PM, PsiSeeker said:

Just earlier I was struck with the feeling of knowing again and what I knew was that I had already been dead and came back to life (this is life after death).  Death I was when born and earnt my life by the will of God.

What thoughts have ye on the psychological effects of life after death and the eternities it implies?  Heaven is eternal but not necessarily and hell necessarily is.

How could hell necessarily be eternal?  That doesn’t even make sense to me.  Hell, over the years is what people have made it out to be.   I would argue that hell doesn’t even exist, unless you’d consider this existence a type of hell…..which I have done myself.

[+Desertrat56]

15 hours ago, Guyver said:

How could hell necessarily be eternal?  That doesn’t even make sense to me.  Hell, over the years is what people have made it out to be.   I would argue that hell doesn’t even exist, unless you’d consider this existence a type of hell…..which I have done myself.

A Presbyterian minister told me that he believed if you deserved to go to hell you were already there and when you die you cease to exist.   It made a lot of sense to me.   

[lightly]

16 hours ago, Guyver said:

How could hell necessarily be eternal?  That doesn’t even make sense to me.  Hell, over the years is what people have made it out to be.   I would argue that hell doesn’t even exist, unless you’d consider this existence a type of hell…..which I have done myself.

     I’m struck lately by people talking about the end of life being an end of suffering.    That’s a favorite old Hindu and Buddhist idea, of course.      Was struck also by a link Sheyap (third) posted showing very early Buddhist art…one was a beautiful sculpture of a garment draped on an Empty Chair  !      

[lightly]

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/budd/hd_budd.htm
 

   Here ..is the link to the early Buddhist pieces.   

[+Hammerclaw]

 

[8th_wall]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:55 PM, the13bats said:

Can your prove their is a heaven or its just your opinion based on faith and belief.

No but I can give you evidence.  "The ground beneath your mother's feed is paradise."  The correct reading I believe, the wholesome, the conclusive whole, is that paradise is heaven on the Earth.

[8th_wall]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:13 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I live in the hope of Heaven, but if there isn’t one hey… I won’t know about it then,will I?

The Heaven?  How presumptuous of you.  Had not you heard comedians singing about.  "What if life on the Earth could be paradise (the one and only Heaven) wouldn't just the thought of it make it worth a try?

 

[Sojo]

Just thought I'd add this:

I personally think that the concept of learning good/evil and learning what constitutes successful living, and being able to discover one's own missteps in life, and then be able to make corrections and progressively improve one's status, that it MUST be predicated on FAITH. This has to be the case to preserve free-will.  Free-will is an all-important aspect of any being's aim to TRULY become a better individual by their own choosing and actions, simply because they fully understand and choose it for themselves as opposed to being forced by an ever present KNOWLEDGE.

If it could be absolutely proven that "God" exists without doubt whatsoever, and that righteousness (accepting a spiritual source higher than yourself, and always treating others as you yourself want to be treated) is the goal of co-existence between all beings, and those who do not follow the laws governing inclusion into that group will suffer an exclusion of one form or another, then I believe free-will is pretty much destroyed. No sane being wants to intentionally incur an absolute assured negative experience to themselves.

The way I see it, FAITH helps assure the sincerity of the individual without an immediately present factor to force adherence.

So, folks can bash FAITH all they want, but without FAITH the person's sincerity can be suspect.

Also, I doubt Heaven will be sitting around doing nothing. I think the Kingdom of Heaven is as real as the rest of the universe, and there can be places where the citizens have all learned and understand how to live successfully in co-existence with one another, and have created some magnificent societies.

Regards,

Sojo

 

[XenoFish]

I don't trust in any gods.

[+Hammerclaw]

 

[+joc]

23 hours ago, Sojo said:

The way I see it, FAITH helps assure the sincerity of the individual without an immediately present factor to force adherence.

So, folks can bash FAITH all they want, but without FAITH the person's sincerity can be suspect.

Faith is belief.  Belief is the act of thinking a thing is true without any proof.  The truth just is.  But...if you have proof of what the truth is, THAT is what gives credibility to what people say and do.  FAITH, while it may make a person feel better about themselves, is just another word for HOPE...that, very overused, and barely understood word that people cling to like it was an innertube in the ocean.  One doesn't need Hope or Faith to be a good, honest, sincere person.  Not bashing you...I am bashing Faith.  Because a person's sincerity is automatically suspect with me if faith is involved.  Just tell me the truth and if you don't know what the truth is, just say you don't know what the truth is.  That's it.

[8th_wall]

I wonder if it is possible in that the original canon introduction of the word heaven, to mean sky, some miss took it to mean something entirely different.  A mistake.  But English is a language that is open to interpretation and what interpretation is true?  I had the feeling that the best is the wholesome interpretation so so long as we're not talking about different things, like dude, camel's dick, and dude, a dude, i.e. the are homonyms, but the same thing.

Anyways, while reading some of the replies I was struck with a thought I had the other day that seems to potentially introduce a problem for science, which assumes that reality is static, not dynamic, the following:

Just because something doesn't exist doesn't automatically imply that it won't, can't, shouldn't, never will etc.

God might not exist today, for example, but if there's a possibility that the literal man in the sky will exist tomorrow then what?  The future is a discovery, after all, as per science, we actually discovered the future.  So for a significant period of time the future didn't exist but then this flies into the face of the tree in the woods thought regarding sound and whether or not an event requires an observer in order to call itself an event.  If something does not exist, is discovered to exist, does that mean that it did not exist?  This seems to pose some problems to the ideas of objectivity.  That the objective does not exist, but what does that say of one when one isn't omniscient in the classic sense (not in the directive sense).

[Grim Reaper 6]

14 minutes ago, 8th_wall said:

I wonder if it is possible in that the original canon introduction of the word heaven, to mean sky, some miss took it to mean something entirely different.  A mistake.  But English is a language that is open to interpretation and what interpretation is true?  I had the feeling that the best is the wholesome interpretation so so long as we're not talking about different things, like dude, camel's dick, and dude, a dude, i.e. the are homonyms, but the same thing.

Anyways, while reading some of the replies I was struck with a thought I had the other day that seems to potentially introduce a problem for science, which assumes that reality is static, not dynamic, the following:

Just because something doesn't exist doesn't automatically imply that it won't, can't, shouldn't, never will etc.

God might not exist today, for example, but if there's a possibility that the literal man in the sky will exist tomorrow then what?  The future is a discovery, after all, as per science, we actually discovered the future.  So for a significant period of time the future didn't exist but then this flies into the face of the tree in the woods thought regarding sound and whether or not an event requires an observer in order to call itself an event.  If something does not exist, is discovered to exist, does that mean that it did not exist?  This seems to pose some problems to the ideas of objectivity.  That the objective does not exist, but what does that say of one when one isn't omniscient in the classic sense (not in the directive sense).

The universe is a constant and its flow is continuous and never ending' So the past is gone, and the future doesn't exist because tomorrow always becomes today!!! To date all omnipotent deities have faded away, the truth, love and certainty is found within each of us it cannot be given to us by others. By forgiving ourselves and severing attachments to our past and living in the current day some measure of happiness can found in a world full of pain. So, in the end we don't need another's forgiveness, we only need to be able to forgive our own transgressions against others and transgressions by others against us. 

JIMHO

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, 8th_wall said:

God might not exist today, for example, but if there's a possibility that the literal man in the sky will exist tomorrow then what?

Hi 8th

Why would anyone accept a being that was created in one sense or another as a god, if it is not the creator of all which would mean that it had to exist before everything what would be the criteria for determining that it was a god.

Edited October 23, 2023 by jmccr8

[8th_wall]

On 10/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

The universe is a constant and its flow is continuous and never ending' So the past is gone, and the future doesn't exist because tomorrow always becomes today!!! To date all omnipotent deities have faded away, the truth, love and certainty is found within each of us it cannot be given to us by others. By forgiving ourselves and severing attachments to our past and living in the current day some measure of happiness can found in a world full of pain. So, in the end we don't need another's forgiveness, we only need to be able to forgive our own transgressions against others and transgressions by others against us. 

JIMHO

Fantastic result sir :)).

I've been mulling over sorry and figured that it's presumptuous to assume that the sorry even starts with you then further, asking for forgiveness but then it assumes energy exists on the other party for oneself and then further still, if one has time to use words, and one wants to show that even if one does not respect the other person, the fear is there (because you're dealing with a person, an apex alpha predictor that will **** you your family and everything you know and love at the drop of a hat not even if rubbed the wrong way, simply on ****n impulse (if running into the wrong son')) then with the time to use words ask for mercy.  Sorry takes ownership of something one isn't necessarily at fault for (and in a court of law one might be judged less severely because of it however guilty is guilty) but mercy?  Asking for mercy if one has no respect, where respect is something that is instinctive for people higher up on a hierarchy of dominance, like age.  It's instinctive to respect one's grandparents and in some cultures the respect is reflected in the word with aunty and uncle, in Japanese I know one's word choices, instinctual, reflects the respect.  But yes, if no respect, ask for mercy.

IF they give mercy then that's grounds for respect because they gave you what you asked for.  If further and they give you what you need and wants also?  Well, then that goes further than respect into the realm of admiration of a role model where one will automatically give the benefit of the doubt when reflexive instinct would suggest to assume the worst is true instead of the spin necessary to see better.

[8th_wall]

On 10/23/2023 at 2:59 PM, jmccr8 said:

Hi 8th

Why would anyone accept a being that was created in one sense or another as a god, if it is not the creator of all which would mean that it had to exist before everything what would be the criteria for determining that it was a god.

Greetings g.  God is a trickster xd.  If He finds out that He doesn't exist then maybe He might just decide to, who knows His mind?

I had the thought that God was a game played by kids in the beginning.  The final analysis of the game story of God is what we have today.  Who knows if there were pockets of humanity that took the game, more real than reality, further than what we might know?  What if they stopped playing the ascended God game and hit transcendental levels?

If God fails, for example, then there's regress to stoicism of questioning absolutely everything eventually resulting in the solipsistic dilemma of being uncertain of the very person next to one even houses consciousness!  This of course is cleared up with a standard day in life as not everything is Philosophy!

[+Desertrat56]

On 8/31/2023 at 6:06 AM, joc said:

Faith is belief.  Belief is the act of thinking a thing is true without any proof.  The truth just is.  But...if you have proof of what the truth is, THAT is what gives credibility to what people say and do.  FAITH, while it may make a person feel better about themselves, is just another word for HOPE...that, very overused, and barely understood word that people cling to like it was an innertube in the ocean.  One doesn't need Hope or Faith to be a good, honest, sincere person.  Not bashing you...I am bashing Faith.  Because a person's sincerity is automatically suspect with me if faith is involved.  Just tell me the truth and if you don't know what the truth is, just say you don't know what the truth is.  That's it.

I agree with this.  Someone who tells me "God told me to help you."   seems insincere, and the belief of heaven as a reward for being a "good" person (based on what?  what someone told you is a good person?) so you do what you think will get you into heaven, a motive that is without compassion or understanding.   This ends up getting quit messy sometimes when someone decides they have to force another to accept their misguided "help".   I have seen it play out often.   So, faith and hope are useless attitudes devoid of rational or logical thought which causes people to do a lot of unessessary things that cause more trouble for themselves and others than if they would just be honest.

"I am going to try this for the fourth time because I hope it will work." and of course it doesn't because nothing else has changed.   "I have faith that god will give me what I need"   So, yeah just stand there and wait for god to give it to you, while eveyone else is out there working for it.   Faith only produces results if there is action attached to it, and the action is the real reason for the results. 

[jmccr8]

5 hours ago, 8th_wall said:

Greetings g.  God is a trickster xd.  If He finds out that He doesn't exist then maybe He might just decide to, who knows His mind?

I had the thought that God was a game played by kids in the beginning.  The final analysis of the game story of God is what we have today.  Who knows if there were pockets of humanity that took the game, more real than reality, further than what we might know?  What if they stopped playing the ascended God game and hit transcendental levels?

If God fails, for example, then there's regress to stoicism of questioning absolutely everything eventually resulting in the solipsistic dilemma of being uncertain of the very person next to one even houses consciousness!  This of course is cleared up with a standard day in life as not everything is Philosophy!

Hi 8th

Sorry, I have no idea what you are on about. If god did not pre-exist us then it is not the creator so then not god and just another evolved species like us.

As far as I am concerned man created god constructs about god creating man nothing more.

[Alchopwn]

On 11/25/2022 at 9:36 AM, lightly said:

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/budd/hd_budd.htm
 

   Here ..is the link to the early Buddhist pieces.   

Here's a bad Buddhist joke:

"Did you hear about the Buddhist who meditated too much?"

"No"

"He entered a Stupa (stupor)".

 

[Alchopwn]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:55 PM, Sojo said:

Just thought I'd add this:

You made an interesting post Sojo, so I'm going to dig a bit here.  This is not meant in any way as a personal attack but partly a seeking of clarification and partially a test of your philosophy's robustness.

On 8/30/2023 at 10:55 PM, Sojo said:

I personally think that the concept of learning good/evil and learning what constitutes successful living, and being able to discover one's own missteps in life, and then be able to make corrections and progressively improve one's status, that it MUST be predicated on FAITH.

Surely that very much depends on how you are using the word Faith here?  I mean, it is quite possible to view "Good and Evil" as just "good and bad outcomes" wearing big scary religiously oriented masks.  It could be quite easy to go one's whole life without every hearing the word Evil in the religious/philosophical sense, and quite possibly be a less neurotic and better person for it.  I might argue that most children are not much interested in what constitutes "successful living", but are tremendously interested in what constitutes "successful playing", and, if our adult ideas of successful living prove to be wrong (as they may well be), and drive our species to extinction on a poisoned planet Earth, the kids might have always been more objectively correct.   Where would that leave Faith?  

I don't see how curiosity and experimentation, let alone observation and learning from mistakes are a product of Faith btw.  This is not meant to disparage your position but to seek clarification.  You are making strong declarative statements here, and it is obvious you have a strong conviction in what you are saying, and that makes me concerned that I am not understanding what you mean by Faith here.

On 8/30/2023 at 10:55 PM, Sojo said:

This has to be the case to preserve free-will.  Free-will is an all-important aspect of any being's aim to TRULY become a better individual by their own choosing and actions, simply because they fully understand and choose it for themselves as opposed to being forced by an ever present KNOWLEDGE.

Okay, so you are invoking the doctrine of Free Will, so this IS a theological argument.  Good.

So let me then invoke some of John Calvin's musings about the Catholic Doctrine of Free Will (he was not a fan of it btw).

If God is almighty, all-powerful and all-knowing, in what sense does Free Will meaningfully exist?  Free Will essentially means that we are not under God's control in this context, but in this context, how would we know?  God could all-knowingly see what we are going to do and all-powerfully change it before we even make the choice without us even knowing it had happened.  We then have to take on Faith that Free Will exists at all.   In fact, given that without the Grace and presence of God, humans are utterly depraved and completely damned, so what good is Free Will?  All it does is serve as a barrier between humanity and the divine.  You talk about the need for humans to choose for themselves, but then isn't Religious Instruction then the total enemy of Free Will?  Doesn't Religious Instruction serve to force the believing Christian into the very ever-present Knowledge that you express as an undesirable thing?  

As near as I can see, if God is truly Omnipotent, then Free Will is a cruel illusion that denies every person the Grace of God and the salvation that Grace provides.  Indeed every religious institution is desperately trying to help people overcome their Free Will and form the re-ligio (Latin for "to join or bind again with", hence religion) with God.  Apparently even the  Holy Mass, wherein the believer consumes the Body and Blood of Christ is not enough to create a perfect "religio", despite Jesus telling us that if we believe in him he will save us, and yet so many continue to sin regardless, as if the whole thing was hollow and meaningless nonsense, and confession and absolution were a "get out of Hell free" card.

On 8/30/2023 at 10:55 PM, Sojo said:

If it could be absolutely proven that "God" exists without doubt whatsoever, and that righteousness (accepting a spiritual source higher than yourself, and always treating others as you yourself want to be treated) is the goal of co-existence between all beings, and those who do not follow the laws governing inclusion into that group will suffer an exclusion of one form or another, then I believe free-will is pretty much destroyed. No sane being wants to intentionally incur an absolute assured negative experience to themselves.

So, if I understand your argument here, you are saying that an ignorance of God is a necessary thing for the test of life to be fulfilled according to God's Will.  We must choose to act in a Godly way without the knowledge of the presence of God in our lives.

So what about a child who is born in a North Korean gulag?  For 5 generations their parents and ancestors have been slaves of the state.  They have never had any religious instruction.  They are chronically malnourished and forced into periodic cannibalism.  Their lives are ones of unremitting cruelty and brutalization resulting in an acceptance of cruelty and brutalization as how the world operates and should operate.  "A boot stamping on a human face forever." as George Orwell put it.  This child will never hear of the God of Abraham, and will only be dimly aware that there is a Man-God called Kim, who hates their very existence.  This child will grow up utterly depraved in the sense that Calvin meant it, and thus utterly damned, for no greater crime than being born to parents whose ancestors happened to have been South Koreans captured by North Koreans.  This child is forced to sin daily and will never know anything different unless they choose to end their misery and die, remembering that suicide is also a sin.  Now consider the Prison Guard, whose lot is scarcely better than that of their victims, also being ignorant of God, and while they are the brutalizer, they are as likely to die of any disease that sweeps the Gulag as the prisoners.  Neither of these people is ever going to have the luxury of religious instruction, and they are going to consistently behave sinfully and receive only positive reinforcement for doing so.  For example, the child is stronger than another child, and kills them in a struggle, providing food resources via cannibalism; might is right.

So here's the rub... According to Christian Theology, in this example (based on facts incidentally), the child is damned due to their free will, but from our human perspective, the child has no freedom and thus no free will, but also no possibility of any salvation.  Can you see how such a situation makes a mockery of the entire Free Will argument due to that argument's internal contradictions?  This child is born damned in this life AND the next.

On 8/30/2023 at 10:55 PM, Sojo said:

The way I see it, FAITH helps assure the sincerity of the individual without an immediately present factor to force adherence.

But sincerity is a public matter, and Faith that requires public acknowledgement is no guarantee of sincerity whatsoever.  Consider the climate of virtue signaling we presently witness online.  It is all completely hollow and insincere.  And how sincere is the Televangelist who loudly proclaims their Faith as they ask you to donate to their Billion dollar Mega-Church?  I suggest Faith is no guarantee of sincerity at all, as sincerity is a public measurement, while the true measure of one's faith is partly measured in acts and partly measured in the subjective aims of the individual in performing those acts.  Is a person who does good purely out of a fear of Hell, actually a good person?  I doubt it.

On 8/30/2023 at 10:55 PM, Sojo said:

So, folks can bash FAITH all they want, but without FAITH the person's sincerity can be suspect.

Thanks, but I think loud faith deserves bashing.  Remember what Jesus said:

 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."  Matthew 6:5

On 8/30/2023 at 10:55 PM, Sojo said:

Also, I doubt Heaven will be sitting around doing nothing. I think the Kingdom of Heaven is as real as the rest of the universe, and there can be places where the citizens have all learned and understand how to live successfully in co-existence with one another, and have created some magnificent societies.

So let us not speak then of the total injustice in punishing finite sins eternally in Hell, but only dwell on Heavenly rewards.  God has created an Eternal Gulag worse than that of the Kims, and yet we call Him good and just, and not an evil dictator, "for he only punishes the wicked".  I bet Kim Jong Un thinks he only punishes the wicked too.  If power corrupts. and ultimate power corrupts ultimately, then your God may well be morally inferior to the Devil, especially has we are made in His image, and thus our weaknesses may mirror His. Indeed too much strength can also be a terrible weakness.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Alchopwn

[Sojo]

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

Surely that very much depends on how you are using the word Faith here?

Hi Al,

I see wheels have been turning and churning. I'll try to respond coherently to some of your inquiries. But It may take more than one response.

The only thing I really meant by Faith is simply the willingness to believe that a greatest source of all life possibly exists, and that there is an established method for that life to grow, develop, and discover the understanding of their existence, and then be able to return to their spiritual source having gained the needed understandings of what does and does not work for harmonious co-existence with other entities that have themselves been given free-will to do the same.

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

I mean, it is quite possible to view "Good and Evil" as just "good and bad outcomes"

I agree, I think concepts of good and evil are inevitable. Good is positive and Evil is negative. There are all kinds of contrasts in this world some we think are positive and some negative.

 

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

I don't see how curiosity and experimentation, let alone observation and learning from mistakes are a product of Faith btw.

To me, faith is simply believing something can be known or done and being willing to act on it in whatever way one might conceive of that could result in discovery. But, If anyone holds strong belief that something can't be known or done, most people thing of it as a lack of faith, but I see it as also being a faith of negative determination.

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

If God is almighty, all-powerful and all-knowing, in what sense does Free Will meaningfully exist?

I know, the idea of omniscience and being able to foresee things used to cause me pause with respect to free will. Some folks like to think this means things are predestined. But I think an outcome can be known by one entity based on its own knowledge of witnessing past occurrences, or even being able to plainly see what will happen, without interfering with another entities free will capability of choosing for themselves. I think beings are completely free to do whatever they choose within their capabilities to actually do them.

 

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

You talk about the need for humans to choose for themselves, but then isn't Religious Instruction then the total enemy of Free Will? 

I think we need to make a distinction between not having free will, and then having one's free will swayed or influenced by something. Sometimes it's just a matter of priorities. Sometimes your free will can want to do something that under other circumstances you might not want to. If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to give me all my money or they'll shoot me, all of a sudden, I think I will want to give him my money as opposed to the alternative. You can say it was against my will if you want, I could still choose to tell the person to take a hike.

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

So what about a child who is born in a North Korean gulag?  For 5 generations their parents and ancestors have been slaves of the state.  They have never had any religious instruction. 

Now your getting into what I conceive of as what many of the arguments are all about. Basically, everyone wants to know how does it all work? I do have some thoughts on this but they are somewhat linear and lengthy, and I will post a separate reply concerning how I currently see things.

2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

But sincerity is a public matter, and Faith that requires public acknowledgement is no guarantee of sincerity whatsoever. 

Hmm, I personally think sincerity is more internal, People can be one thing publicly that is not what they sincerely are. Christ commented on it when he would say things like "you've heard it said.... but I say unto you....." and then would proceed to give instruction that pertained to the sincerity of the inner person. I do think faith is more shown by action not by word.

2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Thanks, but I think loud faith deserves bashing.  Remember what Jesus said:

 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."  Matthew 6:5

I think outward profession and display in front of others to gain attention or esteem is not a show of faith. Its just self aggrandizement. Faith is the spur that moves someone to act because they believe it is possible to do or discover.

2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

So let us not speak then of the total injustice in punishing finite sins eternally in Hell, but only dwell on Heavenly rewards. 

This is again, getting into what I will need to address in another post.

Congratulations, you have managed to get me to do something (or, for the time being, that I have stated I will do) that no one else has asked from me. And that is for me to lay out the world according to Sojo.

I'll be back later to address the ignorance thing and the progressive spiritual development of life beings according to my way of viewing things.

Sojo

[Sojo]

@Alchopwn

I'm back. I'm pasting a preliminary reply for responding to your questions in the earlier post that I said I would do.

I literally sat last night and typed up the following items I'm pasting in here. I was reading some stuff on one web site when suddenly my thinking prompted me to open a MS Word document and begin laying down some of my thoughts. I did, and this is what I ended up with. I'm still not sure what prompted me to do so, but it sure has come in handy for being able to reply in a timely manner to some of your queries.

Here is part of how I see things. You will be able to point out that it us based on some assumptions and faith-driven perspectives that have no basis in proof. That's fine, because it is simply a view into my faith, reasoning, and understandings that I use to help guide me as I sojourn through this life:

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN: CONNECTING THE DOTS

-          Life in the temporal world exists in a spectrum of physical existence and awareness.

-          That which is considered “life” is first introduced into the temporal world from the spiritual realm of reality existence.

-          All life, regardless of size or stage of development, has a quality of being able to sense its existence and environment.

-          Life in the temporal world consists of life forms, entities, and beings with the capability of sensing their existence and environment, and then interacting with their environment in whatever ways it has been given to accomplish that interaction.

-          Life has the capability to develop information processing in life forms to the point of establishing the level of what can be termed “mind”.

-          Life forms can develop to the point of being able to accomplish innate and “mind” processing of information most needed for their immediate needs for survival, and for the life process to continue.

-          The most advanced physical life forms in the temporal world consist of beings that have minds fully aware of their self-existence and are capable of processing information via mind/brain processing to the point of being able to project outcomes of learned action results (which required the development of increased memory capabilities).

-          Most advanced life in the temporal physical world are beings that have developed to the point of having the ability to exist within physical forms, and also have a mind that has developed to the point of advancing to the spiritual level of reality existence.

-          Entrance of physical mind beings into the spiritual level of reality existence is strictly controlled through a process of continued mind training and development, to the point of understanding how entrance into the spiritual realm (the Kingdom of Heaven) is possible, and then being able to meet those requirements.*

-          This will complete the growth cycle and development of new spiritual beings.

-          However, this is still only the beginning of the new spirit being’s spiritual growth. There is much, much more to be learned about what it is to be a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven, and just how much further the spirit being can develop themselves according to the established citizenry rules of co-existence in this Kingdom.

*The understanding of how entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven is possible, and then being able to meet those requirements is the subject of what many beings in the temporal realms are either (1)  not interested in, (2) interested in but not to the point of dedicating the time or commitment into learning how it might be possible, (3) those who have developed to the point of having faith enough to dedicate themselves to seeking out the requirements, and additionally dedicating themselves to the study, observation, and meditative thought needed to discover the path and portal of entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

It is this writer’s opinion that entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven and the rule of law in the Kingdom is so simple, that even children can understand it. However, the level of belief for gaining the forgiveness of past Karmic debt, and gaining entrance is high. Karmic action and how it applies to gaining entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven is the subject of another topic.

[Ajay0]

On 11/8/2022 at 8:46 AM, 8th_wall said:

Just earlier I was struck with the feeling of knowing again and what I knew was that I had already been dead and came back to life (this is life after death).  Death I was when born and earnt my life by the will of God.

What thoughts have ye on the psychological effects of life after death and the eternities it implies?  Heaven is eternal but not necessarily and hell necessarily is.

 Hindu scriptures have mentioned about astral dimensions of a heavenly or hellish character, to which the soul departs after death as per his or her karma or deeds. 

However, these are not of an eternal nature, and corresponds to the karma or actions performed. For most, both hellish and heavenly dimensions are experienced. After the karmic effects are enjoyed or endured, the soul reincarnates again.

This is elaborated in detail in Yogananda's classic 'Autobiography of a Yogi.'

However those who have attained enlightenment enjoys joy and bliss of an eternal nature, which is considered much superior to the astral heavenly dimenions.

[Alchopwn]

On 10/27/2023 at 1:15 AM, Sojo said:

Hi Al,

I see wheels have been turning and churning. I'll try to respond coherently to some of your inquiries. But It may take more than one response.

The only thing I really meant by Faith is simply the willingness to believe that a greatest source of all life possibly exists, and that there is an established method for that life to grow, develop, and discover the understanding of their existence, and then be able to return to their spiritual source having gained the needed understandings of what does and does not work for harmonious co-existence with other entities that have themselves been given free-will to do the same.

I am not quite sure what you mean by a "greatest source of all life".  Is this God by proxy?  Or something else entirely?

As for the idea of the pursuit of harmonious co-existence, I am fine with this as a point that has precedents in many philosophies.  I personally think that the doctrine of Free Will doesn't work philosophically, but that is a matter we can discuss elsewhere.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:15 AM, Sojo said:

To me, faith is simply believing something can be known or done and being willing to act on it in whatever way one might conceive of that could result in discovery. But, If anyone holds strong belief that something can't be known or done, most people thing of it as a lack of faith, but I see it as also being a faith of negative determination.

So your idea of Faith is actually very close to the philosophy known as Positivism from what I am reading here.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:15 AM, Sojo said:

I know, the idea of omniscience and being able to foresee things used to cause me pause with respect to free will. Some folks like to think this means things are predestined. But I think an outcome can be known by one entity based on its own knowledge of witnessing past occurrences, or even being able to plainly see what will happen, without interfering with another entities free will capability of choosing for themselves. I think beings are completely free to do whatever they choose within their capabilities to actually do them.

So your argument is, to summarize, that Free Will can exist on the grounds that "Just because God has limitless power and insight, doesn't mean He is using it to control us".  I have heard this argument before, and it isn't a bad answer, but it does produce difficult philosophical consequences that can be hard to reconcile when one asks "How come?" or "Why not?".  My biggest gripe with this answer is that given that God allegedly has limitless power and insight, there is absolutely no way we could ever know if He was interfering directly and constantly in our lives.  Even if we took God entirely out of the equation, we know from Quantum physics that if we understand any physical system to enough decimal places, all apparent randomness or "freedom" leaves the system, and it becomes completely deterministic.  Thus it can be argued that if time travel is impossible (we don't know, but it may well be), then it is extremely plausible that we are on a single and unalterable timeline set forth for us by events that happened to particles at the beginning of the universe.  Whether God or Quantum Physics is at work, we might argue that we have the Illusion of Free Will, but in truth we live in a deterministic system, and our belief in our freedom is actually a product of our ignorance of that system in enough detail to allow us to grasp its deterministic nature.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:15 AM, Sojo said:

I think we need to make a distinction between not having free will, and then having one's free will swayed or influenced by something. Sometimes it's just a matter of priorities. Sometimes your free will can want to do something that under other circumstances you might not want to. If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to give me all my money or they'll shoot me, all of a sudden, I think I will want to give him my money as opposed to the alternative. You can say it was against my will if you want, I could still choose to tell the person to take a hike.

 This is a fair point Sojo and I don't disagree, but I have another related question.  What about the influences that act upon the circumstances of our life that we are not at all aware of?  Whether unconscious psychological desires and reactions, or the intentional or unintentional actions of knowing and unknowing actors and institutions, or even unexpected natural events including on a subatomic level.  Do we have Free Will if we are unable to even tell what forces and events are acting upon us that we have no control over, but may have control over us without our knowledge?

The interesting thing is, if we live in a deterministic universe, then Free Will is an illusion, but if we lived in a Chaotic universe, Free Will would still be an illusion.  Imagine a universe which had no reliable physical rules.  the fact is that even with infinite freedom, any decision we make is still meaningless and subject to instant, if not pre or post event alteration.  

Politically I am all in favor of ideas of Freedom as it applies to the individual.  I would even go so far as to suggest that we might measure freedom as a function of how much money you have in the world as it stands, though that would probably be regarded as contentious by many who don't like hearing that they aren't very free.  Even money however is a bounded system, predicated on our present social order and its shared history, and at some level, the financial system is relatively predictable, despite the moans of people who lost their money in 2008.  These days if you have enough money, you can fly, even with the power of a personal jetpack, but that freedom is still quite limited in a great many ways.  I suppose the question really is "How Free can Free Will ever really be?".

On 10/27/2023 at 1:15 AM, Sojo said:

Congratulations, you have managed to get me to do something (or, for the time being, that I have stated I will do) that no one else has asked from me. And that is for me to lay out the world according to Sojo.

I'll be back later to address the ignorance thing and the progressive spiritual development of life beings according to my way of viewing things.

Sojo

Needless to say, I think we were pretty much on the same page for the rest of this post.  I am currently picking over your most recent offering with interest.