Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

Heaven


8th_wall

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I am not quite sure what you mean by a "greatest source of all life".  Is this God by proxy?  Or something else entirely?

Yeah, I guess its just a way of how I see "God". I think semantics causes confusion sometimes because different words mean different things to different people. I think God is much, much more than just the concept of one individual personality. I get the feeling that "God" can be any and all beings who have developed to the point of having the exact same understanding of existence in its fullness, and also have the exact same "mind" that would respond exactly the same to any and all situational encounters according to the exact same values, ethics, principles, and administrative laws established by these most advanced beings.  I think God can be manifest anywhere and anytime God so chooses it to be necessary. I think this can also be done simultaneously in as many locations as deemed necessary. I think God really is E Pluribus Unum.

I'm tempted to now go further, however, I really am working on my mentioned previous promise to give some more of my ideas on the "bigger picture" I have been trying to put together. I just have a hard time sometimes with writing because I have to constantly reread everything and see if it is saying what I'm trying to convey. I've started organizing something, but I still need to work on it.

6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

My biggest gripe with this answer is that given that God allegedly has limitless power and insight, there is absolutely no way we could ever know if He was interfering directly and constantly in our lives.

Yeah, I think this is also by design. I'm not saying God doesn't ever interact sometimes in ways not meant to be perceived. But there are so many factors that would go into determining if, when, where such an interaction might occur. Either way, it is my feeling that any such interactions will always allow room for Faith to be preserved. (In other words some might see something as "proof" of God's existence, but I think there will always be some way to consider another answer.)

6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

we live in a deterministic system, and our belief in our freedom is actually a product of our ignorance of that system in enough detail to allow us to grasp its deterministic nature.

I know people believe some things in certain ways because they don't have a full perspective on things. But that's exactly why I think the memory slate is wiped clean for each life. So we can take what our individual personalities have developed to into the next life and then continue to form it and reform it until we improve and develop ourselves more and more with each life. And this is something I feel each of us need to do for ourselves. (With respect to perspectives, I think God is the "one" who has that absolute greatest possible perspective fully understanding all other perspectives.) To say we don't have free will because we can't prove that we have, is just like say the same thing about God. To say we have no free will seems to say we aren't free in having our thoughts either, but I think I'm free to think all kinds of weird stuff if I want.

6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Do we have Free Will if we are unable to even tell what forces and events are acting upon us that we have no control over, but may have control over us without our knowledge?

Short answer for me is, yes 😁. Of course we can only have free will over that which we have the ability to influence. I don't have free will to make a $100 dollar bill magically appear in my hand out of thin air. But I do have free will to think and devise different ways to obtain $100. I think Free Will is free to do anything an individual is capable of doing within their capability to do it, even to do things determined to be "evil".

6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

These days if you have enough money, you can fly, even with the power of a personal jetpack, but that freedom is still quite limited in a great many ways.  I suppose the question really is "How Free can Free Will ever really be?".

Free Will can find itself in many, many different situations. But I think part of this question simply deals with the size of each of our individual prison cells while we are alive on this planet. Some of us have very limited prison cells, while others have much more expanded prison cells. However, I think all life on this planet is held here until it can develop to the point of advancing onward. I think that with the way things are going though, the future generations are going to be in for a rough ride.

Later,

Sojo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Alchopwn Hi again, I thought I'd go ahead and give a promised reply to your earlier questions concerning individual ignorance of the gospel in this world, and the seeming indifference of God to evil in the world.

As I have previously stated, I don't trust everything I read in the Bible unless I can some how make sense of it. So my search for understanding and Truth will always include stuff that just makes sense to me. And, I happen to feel that reincarnation with Karmic action and gradual development of spiritual beings through life forms and various possible life experiences from lowest to most advanced life makes more sense to me. So, if there is any truth to it, then perhaps the concept can be found from other great spiritually-minded individuals. I truly do believe in a Spirit of Truth, and I have been trusting this Spirit to lead and guide me to what makes most sense to me. If I'm wrong, at least I know I'm sincere, but hopefully not sincerely wrong. Either way, its the best I could come up with and it gives me a peaceful way of living and moving through life.

I feel that human beings are life forms that have developed themselves to the point of being able to be indwelt by a form of conscious awareness and intellectual mind that is sourced from the spiritual realm of reality existence. This seems to me evident by just how astronomic the awareness, intelligence, and understanding levels of humans are above any and all other life forms.

But spiritual development and learning of what does and does not work in the temporal realm of existence is quite an extensive regimen of continual learning, practicing, and relearning, and re-honing of body, mind, and spirit potentials and abilities. I believe Karma works from life to life to help guide each individual learn what is required to be able to eventually exist as a perfected spiritual being who is completely attuned to the principles of righteousness and will always exist with a reverence for the higher spiritual source from which they came, and further, treat others in a way that would be equally acceptable to their self. I think this is all completely self-development at the pace each individual personality can receive, process, and then understand all the learning of actions/responses/results that come from temporal living. I think each personality is developed and reformed by all the experiences they have throughout their lives, and these impressions are retained as learned and inherent from life to life within their personality.

I think even spiritual beings entrusted with oversight responsibilities can also fall prey to Ego given that I think Free Will is a universal property inherent in all individual life forms, temporal or spiritual. I think Earth and its inhabitants have been subjected to a great deception by advanced temporal beings who have perpetrated a stewardship mutiny and have deceived the indigent populations (especially among the Jewish people) that there was no greater spiritual authority than themselves. I frankly see the Bible as the Old Testament showing how things will progress when societal development is led strictly by Ego. The Ego of the Old Testament God was the controlling and demanding feature throughout. However, in the New Testament, Christ came to consciously work to begin the long corrective path to wrest control of this world from those who were unfaithful to their stewardship, and then show a loving, simple path and means for individual developing humans to be able to find the Faith needed  to obtain forgiveness for past Karmic debt. They can then move forward into the Kingdom of Heaven. to continue progressing and helping to expand the Kingdom of Heaven to all the other souls on their sojourn to righteousness and eternal life, being settled in light and life. I feel this opportunity is available to all whether they are new human life; returning developing non-Kingdom human life; returning developing Kingdom human life; or even rebel individuals who helped perpetrate the deception, but have now come to an understanding of how they erred.

I feel that when this kind of failed stewardship occurs, there are restricting and/or quarantine actions that are implemented by higher spiritual authority that then initiate the required intervention actions that can salvage and restore the ordained development process. I think this process is just and fair, and provides equal opportunity for all to be able to be forgiven for their past Karmic failures, and then move forward to bigger and better things.

Though I don't trust the Bible as being inerrant, I do believe there are some hidden truths that have made it through the various translations and editorial shenanigans that might have occurred. Here are some of the references on why I think Christ knew and did not refute the concepts of reincarnation and Karma:

Jesus had a reason for being born into the Jewish community. He initially told his disciples to "go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:6). He also stated he was sent specifically to them (Matthew 15:24). I think he understood how the Jewish people had been completely deceived. He told the Jewish religious leaders, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44).

Jesus may have even referred to this in his parables concerning faithful stewardship (specifically, the vineyard and the husbandmen--Matthew 21; Mark 12; & Luke 20--where a householder set up a vineyard and let it out to husbandmen, but the husbandmen plotted to steal the vineyard).  Christ did also state, “All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers” (John 10:8).  The emphasis on faithful stewardship shows the importance of being true to God rather than self, and also portrays the disastrous results of betrayal.

Jesus indicated John the Baptist was the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah (Matthew 11:14). The disciples asked Jesus if a man was born blind because of his sin or his parents sin which would indicated a need for reincarnation if it was for his own (John 9:2).

Jesus stated that among those born of women, there were non greater than John the Baptist, but he that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he (Matthew 11:11). I believe he said this because John the Baptist had not yet entered the Kingdom and was just about to proceed as one of the first from Earth to enter via the path Christ has established for the forgiveness of Karmic debt and entrance into the Kingdom. This seems to be born out following the death of John the Baptist. When Jesus is recorded to have gone to the Mount of Transfiguration with Peter, James, and John, it states he met with Elijah and Moses (Mark 9:2). John the Baptist had died and now Elijah is seen with Moses and Jesus. This indicates to me that John the Baptist (Elijah) has now entered into the Kingdom of Heaven is now even greater than when living as John the Baptist.

Jesus said in John 10:9, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture". I think this alludes to being able to return to earth for specific purposes or continued development.

The book of revelation records that when John bowed to worship an angel, the angel told him not to do it and that he was a fellow servant and former prophet who also kept the sayings of the book (Revelation 22:8-9).

With respect to Karmic action, Here are a few biblical references:

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (Galations 6:7)

On more than one occasion, Christ told someone whom he had healed to go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon them, or that their condition had been the result of sin. (John 5:14, Luke 5:20).

There's likely more, but I'll stop here and just say that I do think there's a plan for universe administration in place and it is proceeding as designed. I think that any and all entities who wish to continue developing themselves and take part in the furtherance and expansion of the Kingdom of Heaven are more than welcome to proceed at their own pace and choosing, and eventually, everyone can hopefully find their way.

Hope this gives an idea of my thinking on things. I'm sure I'll do some more thinking and likely make more fine tuning adjustments as I go.

Regards,

Sojo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Sojo said:

Jesus stated that among those born of women, there were non greater than John the Baptist, but he that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he (Matthew 11:11). I believe he said this because John the Baptist had not yet entered the Kingdom and was just about to proceed as one of the first from Earth to enter via the path Christ has established for the forgiveness of Karmic debt and entrance into the Kingdom. This seems to be born out following the death of John the Baptist. When Jesus is recorded to have gone to the Mount of Transfiguration with Peter, James, and John, it states he met with Elijah and Moses (Mark 9:2). John the Baptist had died and now Elijah is seen with Moses and Jesus. This indicates to me that John the Baptist (Elijah) has now entered into the Kingdom of Heaven is now even greater than when living as John the Baptist.

Wow, this comment was quite a wall of text. 

While I will address your post in detail, I thought I should address the issue of Jesus and John the Baptist specifically as is isn't what it seems at all.  You see, we have no problem with "those born of a woman", as we live in an age where the sexes are seen as equal.  In this context however, Jesus actually means something quite rude, for he doesn't say born of a man and a woman, and in this context, "born of a woman" means that John the Baptist is fatherless and the mother is by inference a prostitute.  Thus Jesus is actually saying "Of all the sons of b!tches populating the world, you will find no bigger son of a b!tch than John the Baptist, but at least God Himself is a mean enough son of a b!tch himself to deal with John".  This loathing was mutual, and if you read the Mandaean scriptures, they excoriate Jesus as an interloper, usurper and hijacker of John the Baptist's messianic status and of his followers.  The translators of the Bible tried hard to play down this terrible rivalry, or perhaps weren't good enough to understand what they were reading.  In short, there is nothing else to read into this rude political polemic that has nothing spiritual about it at all, and really shouldn't be in the Bible.  I say this as a past scriptural translator and linguist proficient in several languages, including Old Hebrew and Aramaic.

I don't presently have the spare time to address your comments, but I promise I will.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Wow, this comment was quite a wall of text. 

While I will address your post in detail, I thought I should address the issue of Jesus and John the Baptist specifically as is isn't what it seems at all.  You see, we have no problem with "those born of a woman", as we live in an age where the sexes are seen as equal.  In this context however, Jesus actually means something quite rude, for he doesn't say born of a man and a woman, and in this context, "born of a woman" means that John the Baptist is fatherless and the mother is by inference a prostitute.  Thus Jesus is actually saying "Of all the sons of b!tches populating the world, you will find no bigger son of a b!tch than John the Baptist, but at least God Himself is a mean enough son of a b!tch himself to deal with John".  This loathing was mutual, and if you read the Mandaean scriptures, they excoriate Jesus as an interloper, usurper and hijacker of John the Baptist's messianic status and of his followers.  The translators of the Bible tried hard to play down this terrible rivalry, or perhaps weren't good enough to understand what they were reading.  In short, there is nothing else to read into this rude political polemic that has nothing spiritual about it at all, and really shouldn't be in the Bible.  I say this as a past scriptural translator and linguist proficient in several languages, including Old Hebrew and Aramaic.

I don't presently have the spare time to address your comments, but I promise I will.

Hi Al

Quite the hypocrite Jesus was as if Joe didn't marry Mary everyone would have thought that he was a son of a b!tch.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I don't presently have the spare time to address your comments, but I promise I will.

Hi Al, Please, you really, really, don't have to do that unless it's something you feel you need to do. It's certainly not something you need to do for me. I know it can take a lot of thinking and writing sometimes. I know I'm probably not as educated or know all there is to know about linguistic gymnastics or re-translations of meanings. But I will usually read things at face value without trying to get them to say something else, unless I have super good reason not to.

Please note this first paragraph I submitted in my response:

On 10/31/2023 at 12:48 PM, Sojo said:

So my search for understanding and Truth will always include stuff that just makes sense to me. And, I happen to feel that reincarnation with Karmic action and gradual development of spiritual beings through life forms and various possible life experiences from lowest to most advanced life makes more sense to me. So, if there is any truth to it, then perhaps the concept can be found from other great spiritually-minded individuals. I truly do believe in a Spirit of Truth, and I have been trusting this Spirit to lead and guide me to what makes most sense to me. If I'm wrong, at least I know I'm sincere, but hopefully not sincerely wrong. Either way, its the best I could come up with and it gives me a peaceful way of living and moving through life.

This seems to have worked well for me for many years now. I'm sure you have a better understanding of some things than I do, but I'll always probably keep doing things this way.

I certainly hope you don't take it as me trying to tell you how you need to think or believe things. That certainly isn't my intent.

You had directly asked me something, and I wanted to be respectful enough to provide you an answer. That's all.

Regards,

Sojo

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Al

Quite the hypocrite Jesus was as if Joe didn't marry Mary everyone would have thought that he was a son of a b!tch.

The thought had occurred to me jmccr8, but nice catch all the same. :tu:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Al

Quite the hypocrite Jesus was as if Joe didn't marry Mary everyone would have thought that he was a son of a b!tch.

Actually ...I think...everyone thought he was a son of a bch because he did marry Mary.  I mean, technically, he should have had her stoned.

And...if you bring Aliens into the picture, she could have been impregnated quite easily and still have been a virgin technically.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, joc said:

Actually ...I think...everyone thought he was a son of a bch because he did marry Mary.  I mean, technically, he should have had her stoned.

And...if you bring Aliens into the picture, she could have been impregnated quite easily and still have been a virgin technically.  

More proof that that story came from the romans, they believed (or used stories of) there were lots of demi-gods running around and only made the story have Joseph marry Mary in order to integrate it into the original judaic beliefs.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/2/2023 at 3:24 PM, joc said:

And...if you bring Aliens into the picture, she could have been impregnated quite easily and still have been a virgin technically.  

image.jpeg.17dae1d0d4a7f403056e5755eed1d1b1.jpeg

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/30/2023 at 12:20 AM, Sojo said:

Yeah, I guess its just a way of how I see "God". I think semantics causes confusion sometimes because different words mean different things to different people. I think God is much, much more than just the concept of one individual personality. I get the feeling that "God" can be any and all beings who have developed to the point of having the exact same understanding of existence in its fullness, and also have the exact same "mind" that would respond exactly the same to any and all situational encounters according to the exact same values, ethics, principles, and administrative laws established by these most advanced beings.  I think God can be manifest anywhere and anytime God so chooses it to be necessary. I think this can also be done simultaneously in as many locations as deemed necessary. I think God really is E Pluribus Unum.

Why would a CREATOR OF UNIVERSES give even one moment's consideration to a species of carnivorous sea apes on a tiny planet in a very mediocre galaxy?  It is a bit like one of your stomach flora thinking it has a personal relationship with your consciousness.  Pure hubris imo.

Of course this isn't about my opinion, but yours.  So why would god give even one single damn about us?  We haven't even left our Homeworld yet.  Presently we are a bunch of no-accounts without even a Ringworld or a Dyson Sphere to our collective names.

On 10/30/2023 at 12:20 AM, Sojo said:

Yeah, I think this is also by design. I'm not saying God doesn't ever interact sometimes in ways not meant to be perceived. But there are so many factors that would go into determining if, when, where such an interaction might occur. Either way, it is my feeling that any such interactions will always allow room for Faith to be preserved. (In other words some might see something as "proof" of God's existence, but I think there will always be some way to consider another answer.)

Well, it goes without saying that at some point you are going to have to address the issue of why you think a God exists at all.  I don't think anyone has ever answered that issue to everyone's satisfaction.  

Your idea that Faith is good and worth preserving, when Gnosis is the point of most people's religions is an odd one.  The counter-argument can easily be put that Faith is only good for a Priestly class of Charlatans who want to rip off their flock.  I mean, consider, Faith is essentially accepting without question a series of assertions made by people a long time ago who didn't know as much as you, who you can't cross-examine, and who are all long dead, in order to justify putting money on a plate on Sunday and listening to a man in a dress mouth some platitudes at you.  Isn't the point of religion a re-ligio (reunion) with the divine, i.e. Gnosis?  What good then is Faith? Faith is an excuse to avoid an actual religious experience, as if you know God is real with any certainty, all faith is lost.  How self-defeating is Faith therefore?

On 10/30/2023 at 12:20 AM, Sojo said:

I know people believe some things in certain ways because they don't have a full perspective on things. But that's exactly why I think the memory slate is wiped clean for each life. So we can take what our individual personalities have developed to into the next life and then continue to form it and reform it until we improve and develop ourselves more and more with each life. And this is something I feel each of us need to do for ourselves. (With respect to perspectives, I think God is the "one" who has that absolute greatest possible perspective fully understanding all other perspectives.) To say we don't have free will because we can't prove that we have, is just like say the same thing about God. To say we have no free will seems to say we aren't free in having our thoughts either, but I think I'm free to think all kinds of weird stuff if I want.

So you believe in reincarnation.  That is at odds with the Abrahamic faiths you know?  And how is losing your prior memories any different to a permanent death anyhow?  You lose everything meaningful about yourself, and get placed in a new body that may not even be human.  There is nothing left of the former you.  What then of any actual importance reincarnates?

As to free will, of course you can think anything you like about it.  That is not the point.  The point is whether you can logically defend your philosophy and keep it coherent.  I would put it to you that the whole Free Will argument is based on some very half-baked philosophy that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and is almost impossible to reconcile as meaningful if you think God is as almighty as the Bible suggests.  An all-powerful God makes free will extremely unlikely.  On this point I think that John Calvin, while unpleasant, had a far better argued and realized philosophy and theology than either Wesley or the Catholics on the issue of Free Will.  The issue is not your freedom to speculate but your ability to make your argument stick.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

So why would god give even one single damn about us?

As I previously mentioned, semantics is what makes it so difficult for folks to see other's perspectives. Many people hear the word "God" and think of a single human-type personality when my concept is the E Pluribus Unum concept. I just think God is One and God is Many. I think God's plan for universe operation extends to each and every part of universe creation. Evil was pre-known to be what needed to be dealt with even "in the beginning". I think anyone gifted with some logic abilities can see how evil would be inevitable with Free Will. I think this is just one of those issues I think God might care about in the lives of developing spiritual beings.

 

23 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well, it goes without saying that at some point you are going to have to address the issue of why you think a God exists at all.

Why anyone chooses to believe in God is always a personal matter for them. There could be many reasons, but usually it revolves around the reasoning that if anything exists, then there should be a source for it. I think human kind learned early on that there were unseen forces at work. Many of them forces of physics they had no understandings of. Spirituality I think mostly ran along the "good and evil" track. I know many others have mentioned paranormal experiences they've had. I too had one, but it was after I already had Faith in Christ and the Spirit of Truth. It was an experience so palpable that it could not be ignored or explained away. It isn't something I'm willing to subject everyone trying to explain how it could possibly be something explained by physics, but I personally know what occurred and a physics explanation won't cut it. I know it is only anecdotal, so no proof to give you of anything, sorry.

 

23 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

So you believe in reincarnation.  That is at odds with the Abrahamic faiths you know? 

Yep.

 

23 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

And how is losing your prior memories any different to a permanent death anyhow?  You lose everything meaningful about yourself, and get placed in a new body that may not even be human.  There is nothing left of the former you.  What then of any actual importance reincarnates?

This is kind of "asked and answered". My answer is, the personality. I think each developing personality is shaped and formed by any and all experiences that occur throughout their lives. I just happen to think that eventually one will come to the point of being developed enough to gain the great understanding of how to live peaceably in co-existence and harmony with all other beings.

With respect to memory and wiping thereof:

I feel the personality retains the memory of all it has experienced and shaped it to be as it is. This is what helps mold the being. It's just that the memory is held in the shaping since the experiences are what helped form it. It's not a memory of every instance that occurred, the personality status and current state is the actual memory of all it has experienced.

I don't think it would be helpful if folks were to always be able to remember all the horrible things they may have done in learning the depths of evil. I feel this is why the memory needs to be wiped. Eventually the being can come to the understanding of how Christ came to restore things, but also for God to take full responsibility for ALL evil that has come into the world through the gift of Free Will. Also (and this I think is the important part), to provide a means for individuals to have Faith they can be forgiven for all their past Karmic debt, and then be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, having an understanding of just how horrible Evil actions can be, and now  they have a more full understanding of good and evil and of how to live an Eternal Life wherein a life existence can be enjoyed with even greater and greater memory capacity that is available to all who are now one with "God" and will continue to live being settled in light and life.

As to our differing ideas on Free Wheel and other issues you have with my perspective, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Nothing personal mind you, I think we just need to follow our paths as we follow whatever sources of understanding we each choose to accept.

Regards,

Sojo

Edited by Sojo
Spelling
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Sojo said:

As I previously mentioned, semantics is what makes it so difficult for folks to see other's perspectives. Many people hear the word "God" and think of a single human-type personality when my concept is the E Pluribus Unum concept. I just think God is One and God is Many. I think God's plan for universe operation extends to each and every part of universe creation. Evil was pre-known to be what needed to be dealt with even "in the beginning". I think anyone gifted with some logic abilities can see how evil would be inevitable with Free Will. I think this is just one of those issues I think God might care about in the lives of developing spiritual beings.

So when you say "From the many, one", what do you mean exactly?  That God is made up of a council of Angels?  That God is the collective consciousness of humans?  Or is god the collective consciousness of all living things including all the microbes and vermin?  Is god limited to Earth?  

Most importantly, how are you verifying your claims?  What are you basing them on?  I hope it is more than a gut feeling.

As for the issue of Evil, that is an entirely fresh can of worms.  All too frequently Evil is a matter of perspective.  I mean, imagine what we would consider evil if Hitler had won WW2.  Now THAT was a war for the soul of humanity; we can look at the values that were being fought for and reach that conclusion quite easily.

As to your Free Will arguments, I have yet to be convinced.  They need a lot more work, I think.  You might be correct, but you keep falling into the same theological philosophical pitfalls that Wesley and the Catholics fall into.  You need to abandon those arguments and approach the entire issue of Evil and Free Will from an entirely new perspective I think, as those bones have no flesh or marrow left to chew.

On 10/30/2023 at 12:20 AM, Sojo said:

I'm tempted to now go further, however, I really am working on my mentioned previous promise to give some more of my ideas on the "bigger picture" I have been trying to put together. I just have a hard time sometimes with writing because I have to constantly reread everything and see if it is saying what I'm trying to convey. I've started organizing something, but I still need to work on it.

I want to offer you every encouragement.  I half want to suggest some readings for you, but I don't want to taint your originality.

17 hours ago, Sojo said:

Why anyone chooses to believe in God is always a personal matter for them. There could be many reasons, but usually it revolves around the reasoning that if anything exists, then there should be a source for it. I think human kind learned early on that there were unseen forces at work. Many of them forces of physics they had no understandings of. 

I don't personally think God is a good answer for why things exist.  After all, it doesn't answer the question of why God exists before things.  Did God have a god who created him?  Is it gods all the way down?  And if God is all-knowing, how come the Bible doesn't understand how rain works?  Problem after problem.  God creates more questions than he answers when it comes to creation.  In short, a bad answer, when there are far better ones in the offing.

The only God ideas I've ever had much sympathy for are the Ein Sof of Kabbalism and the Tao of Taoism.  It is also very interesting how uncannily similar the Ein Sof and the Tao are in their conceptions.  These ideas are a lot closer to where modern Cosmology is at than "well actually it was all done by a bearded magical man on a cloud" aka "A wizard did it" aka the "Dumbledore/Gandalf/Aslan is God" argument which serves as the limit for most Abrahamic conceptions of God, and breaks down the minute you realize that the God of the Bible is an insane egotist who wants to eat you (all based on scriptural authority, mind you, and I should know as I translated them from the original Aramaic form my own amusement, as it used to be my job).

On 11/1/2023 at 3:48 AM, Sojo said:

As I have previously stated, I don't trust everything I read in the Bible unless I can some how make sense of it. So my search for understanding and Truth will always include stuff that just makes sense to me.

Good.  One of the greatest disservices that was ever done the world was when the Seleucids ordered the Jews to translate their scriptures into Greek.  Without the supporting folklore and gematria of the original Hebrew, it is impossible to read the Torah and the Tanakh.  I don't like to brag, but I was actually paid the honor of being asked in the 1990s if I'd like to become a Rabbi, due to my familiarity with the religious texts of early Judaism.  It is a long and humorous story that was just a bit awkward and invasive towards the end.  Suffice to say, I wriggled out of it.  In any case, I know the material better than most, and the level of ignorance in the US Christian community about their scriptures is breathtakingly shameful.  For example, there is actually a LOT of polytheism in the original Jewish scriptures, but NOBODY wants to acknowledge it, except for the Liberal Jews, whom I consider good value.

18 hours ago, Sojo said:

Spirituality I think mostly ran along the "good and evil" track. I know many others have mentioned paranormal experiences they've had. I too had one, but it was after I already had Faith in Christ and the Spirit of Truth. It was an experience so palpable that it could not be ignored or explained away. It isn't something I'm willing to subject everyone trying to explain how it could possibly be something explained by physics, but I personally know what occurred and a physics explanation won't cut it. I know it is only anecdotal, so no proof to give you of anything, sorry.

There are a LOT of different forms of spirituality, and "good and evil" is a decidedly monotheist problem.  The Hindus have a saying "The God of the Monotheists is a god of Good and Evil, but mainly Evil, for he spends so much time devising tortures for those he doesn't like".  It is also distinctly possible that most things people consider to be God is actually an encounter with a Big Tulpa created by a community of believes it feeds off, otherwise known as an Egregore.  Suffice to say, I think God is a bad concept, and that true spirituality is about one's internal journey, mirrored by one's actions in Life.  Reducing spirituality to the Cartesian axes of Good and Evil; God and not-God;  it just doesn't get you ahead imo.  It's too primitive, and fails to model the ridiculously complicated world we live in.

18 hours ago, Sojo said:

This is kind of "asked and answered". My answer is, the personality. I think each developing personality is shaped and formed by any and all experiences that occur throughout their lives. I just happen to think that eventually one will come to the point of being developed enough to gain the great understanding of how to live peaceably in co-existence and harmony with all other beings.

Well, if the personality is gone, what is left to call the "you" that reincarnates?  Everything that was meaningfully "you" is gone. 

As to living in harmony with others, prove to me that "Stalin's Answer" is wrong.  If everyone is dead but you, there will be peace and harmony.  If everyone submits to the tyrant's will, there is peace and harmony.  I would go so far as to make the counter argument that "There is no peace and harmony in Nature.  Nature is writ red in tooth and claw.  Life feeds upon life without exception.  Humans speak foolishly about a natural balance, but Nature knows no such conceits, and indeed everything Humans call artificial, man-made, and unnatural; that too is part of Nature and its design."  To say that Conflict is undesirable flies in the fact that Conflict is universal, and you cannot but kill a billion tiny lives with every breath you take.   Wherefore then peace and harmony?  Surely we live in the darkest of hells, where everything is in a wild melee of trying to consume every other life form?  Lol, answer me that. 😉.  Case in point, the Buddha preached a famous sermon against "Bloody Handed Brahma", the Hindu creator deity, describing him as an unenlightened idiot god, much like H.P. Lovecraft's Azathoth, and that Brahma's ignorance had created all wickedness and suffering in the world.  And Buddha is correct imo.  If there is a creator deity, it is a deeply evil and perverted entity at worst, and a well-meaning but supremely ignorant d!ckhead at best.  Woody Allen famously described God as an under-achiever.  Very charitable.  The point being, is peace and harmony really the point of the world?  Considering that some of humanity's greatest spiritual tests have been on the battlefield, I am not so certain.  Peace and harmony will only take you so far, and this is coming from a Libran, who is supposed to be all about peace and harmony. 😄

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

how are you verifying your claims?

 

4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I think God is a bad concept, and that true spirituality is about one's internal journey, mirrored by one's actions in Life.

Hi Al, I guess that's what Faith is about. And I truly had Faith prior to that one experience I mentioned, but that experience had quite an influence in my thinking and the course of my life (as all experiences tend to do). Since I've been Christian in my belief of Christ and the Spirit of Truth throughout my life, I have always prayed the following consistent prayers: One is that no matter what religious material I read, I pray that if there is anything of truth and value in it that I need to retain, then I ask for help to mentally retain what I need and can make sense of. One other prayer I have always prayed is that since I believe there is what could be considered an optimal life path through this world for each person, I pray that the Spirit will help guide and lead me to the most optimal path(s) we can have for me and my family members. I don't think optimal paths are destined through fame and riches. I have always lived life going with its flow. Whenever I come to cross roads or major decisions that have to be made, I simply pray, ask for guidance internally to help me choose the right path, and then proceed based on the inner promptings I get.

I just follow what I feel are my internal spiritual promptings, as we go through life and try to stay spiritually minded. I know you and others as well as myself still have many questions that don't seem to be answerable, but I've learned to enjoy the journey and do the best I can.

I do think there is a plan for universe beings to be able to grow, learn, and become all they are meant to become as we live and learn. I think Woody Allen also said "Eternity is a long time, especially toward the end". As serious as I think it is for folks to be able to develop, grow and mature spiritually, I think there's enough time for everyone eventually to figure out how to best live a good life and live harmoniously with others. But there are many, many lessons to be learned about so many, many different things. I think Earth is a good place to learn a lot of it.

I'll continue to live and learn and pray as I go, and I hope others can do the same.

Regards,

Sojo

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/26/2023 at 1:40 AM, jmccr8 said:

Hi 8th

Sorry, I have no idea what you are on about. If god did not pre-exist us then it is not the creator so then not god and just another evolved species like us.

As far as I am concerned man created god constructs about god creating man nothing more.

I'm talking about how I perceive the nature of God.  For example, Einstein quips, "God does not gamble."  I go, "and God goes, "**** me really?  I guess I better get onto that.""  Off he goes gambling hitting jackpot feeding $100AUD bills into the machines, jackpot, next one along He's still going.  Who knows what the **** He's trying to win but He knows he is gambling.  His nature.  Not necessarily the truth of Him.  Just his nature.

I really like that jmc :)).  First time I've come across the notion to think of Him as so.  The speech of his son is absolutely beautiful to beholden if you were to hear it spoken to you like so.  With flow and grace he spaces everything he has to say one one fluid flow.  Silver tongue is his gift and his ability to manifest it is marvelous to beholden were you to appreciate the pearl as the swine you are not!  Stuff like that hahahaha.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/26/2023 at 12:49 AM, Desertrat56 said:

I agree with this.  Someone who tells me "God told me to help you."   seems insincere, and the belief of heaven as a reward for being a "good" person (based on what?  what someone told you is a good person?) so you do what you think will get you into heaven, a motive that is without compassion or understanding.   This ends up getting quit messy sometimes when someone decides they have to force another to accept their misguided "help".   I have seen it play out often.   So, faith and hope are useless attitudes devoid of rational or logical thought which causes people to do a lot of unessessary things that cause more trouble for themselves and others than if they would just be honest.

"I am going to try this for the fourth time because I hope it will work." and of course it doesn't because nothing else has changed.   "I have faith that god will give me what I need"   So, yeah just stand there and wait for god to give it to you, while eveyone else is out there working for it.   Faith only produces results if there is action attached to it, and the action is the real reason for the results. 

Faith has an axiom I think I've uncovered.  Not sure if I had it at as my quote for a while.  What do you think of this?  "The only thing that you require faith for is that there is beyond you."  It's a nice line for a solipsistic person to consider.  :))

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/24/2022 at 11:38 AM, Guyver said:

How could hell necessarily be eternal?  That doesn’t even make sense to me.  Hell, over the years is what people have made it out to be.   I would argue that hell doesn’t even exist, unless you’d consider this existence a type of hell…..which I have done myself.

**** Hell bro.  I feed into that **** in as minimal and objective a manner as I can manage.  "Once you are in Hell there is no out, by the definition of Hell." for example is how I treat it.  Unbelievably there are exceptions but that's a matter for the study of it objectively not for it as something that might be deemed knowledge pending on whatever reason a person might have to venture in the study of it.  Such as being scared ****less.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/26/2023 at 8:14 PM, Alchopwn said:

Here's a bad Buddhist joke:

"Did you hear about the Buddhist who meditated too much?"

"No"

"He entered a Stupa (stupor)".

 

That one flew over my head for roughly 50 000 years before the ability to laugh came forth.  I am now smiling and now laughing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/7/2022 at 9:16 PM, 8th_wall said:

Just earlier I was struck with the feeling of knowing again and what I knew was that I had already been dead and came back to life (this is life after death).  Death I was when born and earnt my life by the will of God.

What thoughts have ye on the psychological effects of life after death and the eternities it implies?  Heaven is eternal but not necessarily and hell necessarily is.

Also, what do you make of the odd experience of "I know" when filled with confidence certainty and everything besides not being precisely sure what it is that you know?  I had this experience for the first time when I was 6.  Instilled with a good out look for the future and that everything was fine and dandy.

Heaven was a place I went in my nightmares as a child, and it was horrifying.

Everything was light and bright and angels and souls stood around all day or walked the shining streets of the eternal city, singing praises to this bright and beautiful shining deity.

It was an endless church service. 

You couldn't leave.  You could only stand and sing and worship this being... forever, and ever and ever and ever.  Till the end of the universe and beyond.  There wasn't any rest or sleep -- or even if you could, there was always the sound of the eternal worship because this was the loving god who gave you eternal life.

I'd wake up crying.  I had to say nightly prayers and the phrase "if I should die before I wake I pray the Lord my soul to take" made me want to scream and run in fear.

No.

Give me the Duat instead.  I can chase birds and fish, plow with my lovely spotted cows, play with my cats and dogs, return to earth to meddle with my descendants, and no ultimate being demands that all I do is stand and sing praises 24/7 for all eternity.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, 8th_wall said:

Faith has an axiom I think I've uncovered.  Not sure if I had it at as my quote for a while.  What do you think of this?  "The only thing that you require faith for is that there is beyond you."  It's a nice line for a solipsistic person to consider.  :))

It makes no sense from the solipsiostic perspective in my opinion.   But if it helps you that is good.   The You that is experiencing being human on planet earth is just a part of the real you.  Everyone gets to ignore that or interpret it anyway they want.  And you don't have to believe anything exists beyond that, but it helps to understand that you are not the only real person in the story.   (my comment on solipsism). 

The interpretation that I liked when I was young was similar to what Carl Sagan said, something like "We are made of star stuff and when we die we go back to that."   There is a permeating energy to the universe that we are tapped in to or part of, all life is, and all that we don't consider life is (maybe it is as alive as we are).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/9/2023 at 4:09 PM, Kenemet said:

Heaven was a place I went in my nightmares as a child, and it was horrifying.

I experienced hypnopomic hallucinations when a kid in the throes of nightterrors of 'angels coming to get me' as I experienced them rushing towards me up the creaking floorboards of the hallway of an old wooden house I lived in.  Let's just say I felt far more comfortable thinking about and dealing with and being exposed to demons than angels.  Holy.  ****.  I feel you hard on this one.  Especially due to logically thinking it out that infinite boredom seems to be heaven but there is much to be said about boredom that probably justifies its own thread.  Might make one some time in the future when I've got all the fleeting ideas for it in the throes of Being.

On 11/9/2023 at 4:09 PM, Kenemet said:

Everything was light and bright and angels and souls stood around all day or walked the shining streets of the eternal city, singing praises to this bright and beautiful shining deity.

It was an endless church service. 

You couldn't leave.  You could only stand and sing and worship this being... forever, and ever and ever and ever.  Till the end of the universe and beyond.  There wasn't any rest or sleep -- or even if you could, there was always the sound of the eternal worship because this was the loving god who gave you eternal life.

I'd wake up crying.  I had to say nightly prayers and the phrase "if I should die before I wake I pray the Lord my soul to take" made me want to scream and run in fear.

No.

Give me the Duat instead.  I can chase birds and fish, plow with my lovely spotted cows, play with my cats and dogs, return to earth to meddle with my descendants, and no ultimate being demands that all I do is stand and sing praises 24/7 for all eternity.

Thank-you for opening up like thata Kenemet.  I appreciate you.  Extremely visual.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/10/2023 at 12:42 AM, Desertrat56 said:

It makes no sense from the solipsiostic perspective in my opinion.   But if it helps you that is good.   The You that is experiencing being human on planet earth is just a part of the real you.  Everyone gets to ignore that or interpret it anyway they want.  And you don't have to believe anything exists beyond that, but it helps to understand that you are not the only real person in the story.   (my comment on solipsism). 

The interpretation that I liked when I was young was similar to what Carl Sagan said, something like "We are made of star stuff and when we die we go back to that."   There is a permeating energy to the universe that we are tapped in to or part of, all life is, and all that we don't consider life is (maybe it is as alive as we are).

"The only thing that you require faith in is that there is that which is beyond you."  Those were my exact words but the grammar might be off.

Basically a solipsitic person experiences reality and can't decide if the next person along is conscious.  Faith then forms an axiom that in order to render the next person along conscious one must have faith within it.  Whether or not one utilizes said faith is besides the point but the fact of faith having a place rather than throwing it out it seems to me to have!

Carl Sagan strikes me as an air-headed idealist.  Not sure why.  It's like the dude smoked too much weed or something.  There is the world that we are physically however there is also the psychophenomenological world that need not concern itself with the elements and compounds and brackish formations of anything.  I could just as much decide to be an upstanding family man and throwing myself whole-heartedly into the people that ground me as I can wondering about how insignificant I am.  And then I could analyse significance and wonder why I should deem myself to be worth nothing because I'm comparing myself to a star the spans the size from the sun to Saturn.

Significance in this way of thinking of it comes through experience.  When I'm staring down the void of my life and feel only pain and suffering no amount of thinking about star dust and myself takes away from the pain that I am feeling.

I'm not sure why we seem to want to relate everything to everything else in the holistic interpretation of it.  Energy to me as a psychological being is sugar, acetate.  That's all the brain uses.  Heat, energy, like energy is fantastic.  But it's extremely high level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, 8th_wall said:

When I'm staring down the void of my life and feel only pain and suffering no amount of thinking about star dust and myself takes away from the pain that I am feeling.

The Patient said, Doctor, it hurts when I do this.  And the Doctor said, Well don't do that! 

Why stare down the void of your life?  

A girl once wrote something in my High School Year Book.   Very simple and to the point she wrote,  Remember the Good, Forget the Bad ~ Teresa White.

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, 8th_wall said:

"The only thing that you require faith in is that there is that which is beyond you."  Those were my exact words but the grammar might be off.

Basically a solipsitic person experiences reality and can't decide if the next person along is conscious.  Faith then forms an axiom that in order to render the next person along conscious one must have faith within it.  Whether or not one utilizes said faith is besides the point but the fact of faith having a place rather than throwing it out it seems to me to have!

Carl Sagan strikes me as an air-headed idealist.  Not sure why.  It's like the dude smoked too much weed or something.  There is the world that we are physically however there is also the psychophenomenological world that need not concern itself with the elements and compounds and brackish formations of anything.  I could just as much decide to be an upstanding family man and throwing myself whole-heartedly into the people that ground me as I can wondering about how insignificant I am.  And then I could analyse significance and wonder why I should deem myself to be worth nothing because I'm comparing myself to a star the spans the size from the sun to Saturn.

Significance in this way of thinking of it comes through experience.  When I'm staring down the void of my life and feel only pain and suffering no amount of thinking about star dust and myself takes away from the pain that I am feeling.

I'm not sure why we seem to want to relate everything to everything else in the holistic interpretation of it.  Energy to me as a psychological being is sugar, acetate.  That's all the brain uses.  Heat, energy, like energy is fantastic.  But it's extremely high level.

Maybe you would change your mind if you actually read a book by Carl Sagan.  He was not an airhead, he was a thinker.   The "quote" I paraphrased had nothing to do with faith.  It had to do with accepting that this human body we inhabit is temporary and that we are all part of the universes.   We can think all kinds of things and use words inappropriately (change their meaning with a hammer to fit what we want to convey) but communication requires that we agree on the definition of the words we use.   You have a trigger and I guess I hit it unintentionally.   Faith literally means "belief without proof".   So in my mind, that is a useless word, like hope.   You can hope faithfully all day long but if you are just sitting around waiting nothing will change. 

Edited by Desertrat56
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/4/2023 at 9:35 AM, Alchopwn said:

An all-powerful God makes free will extremely unlikely.

Not following this part, it's this reality that makes free will extremely unlikely not God, you need to have pretty much a god or the supernatural for free will to even exist.  I'm not sure what the basis is for knowing anything logically about how an all-powerful God would actually behave, and since we are essentially carnivorous sea apes as you put it asserting how God would behave seems to involve at least as much hubris as the idea that it'd care about lowly us.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Not following this part, it's this reality that makes free will extremely unlikely not God, you need to have pretty much a god or the supernatural for free will to even exist.  I'm not sure what the basis is for knowing anything logically about how an all-powerful God would actually behave, and since we are essentially carnivorous sea apes as you put it asserting how God would behave seems to involve at least as much hubris as the idea that it'd care about lowly us.

I agree with @Alchopwn, an all powerful god that meddles in human lives allowing "free will" is impossible.  Either the diety meddles and judges or we have free will.   You can't have it both ways.   You want a diety to control your actions, fine, but then don't justify some of the cognitive dissonance that people point out as the diety giving us free will and judging us by whether we follow it's laws or not.  Total nonsense.   Cognitive dissonance squared.

Edited by Desertrat56
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.