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Heaven


8th_wall

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1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Not following this part, it's this reality that makes free will extremely unlikely not God, you need to have pretty much a god or the supernatural for free will to even exist.  I'm not sure what the basis is for knowing anything logically about how an all-powerful God would actually behave, and since we are essentially carnivorous sea apes as you put it asserting how God would behave seems to involve at least as much hubris as the idea that it'd care about lowly us.

You seriously think that a being that knows everything you are going to do before you are even born has granted you Free Will?  LOL, in what sense are you free if it knows everything you will do, and basically owns you?  It has granted you only an ignorance of what happens next and your eventual fate.  That isn't freedom or free will in any meaningful sense of the term.

As for understanding God, remember, we are made in God's image, which is an odd statement when you consider that God is invisible, but humans are not invisible.  Clearly the part of us the scriptures mean is the divinity within us.  As above so below.  According to scripture we humans are God writ small, so of course we can know about an all-powerful God better than any Angel ever could.  Were it any other way, we could not have a personal relationship with God.  Of course I don't believe a word of this, but I do understand the doctrine, as it was all just made up by some supremely narcissistic and hubristic carnivorous sea apes and isn't especially hard to figure out.  They made a god in their own image and it behaves monstrously.

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Predestination is a ludicrous concept. Even if a Creator exists beyond the constraints of linear time and knows how the game ends, the players on the field don't. 

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3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

You seriously think that a being that knows everything you are going to do before you are even born has granted you Free Will? 

Why not, what is your basis for thinking this so outlandish?  Does granting us Free Will take more effort on his part or put something at risk or something?  We can keep going with personal incredulity here, why a supreme being with the qualities you've mentioned above would even create us period is more of a question mark then just giving us Free Will. 

I know we've talked about this before although I'm not sure we got anywhere, but you've put the word 'before' in a statement concerning God.  Why would you think a God that created time would then be subject to it?  Do you think it's 2023 in heaven?

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

LOL, in what sense are you free if it knows everything you will do, and basically owns you?

What kind of freedom counts for you?  I've got a pretty much inexhaustible playground of choices here on Earth despite it being an insignificant speck in the universe, because relative to me it is not a speck.  Who cares who supposedly 'owns me', if I have free will I can exercise it in countless ways daily.  You seem to imply that unless we're of equal power as God then we're not free, but not sure.

I've used this example previously, Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address in the 19th Century.  Does our knowing now that's what he did take away his possible free will at the time?  I'd say no, I merely know what free will action he took.  So why can't God work this way since there's no evidence that I'm aware of that he is constrained in any way by our 'time' nor do we understand how that even works with relation to him?  I have to use 'time' words to even say this since time is so fundamental here in our reality, but maybe God knows what free will choice we 'will' make, in this realm that has time, because from his perspective we have 'already' made the choice just like Abe has.  God is supreme, not time, so from his perspective maybe everything that 'will' happen 'already' has and is complete. 

It seems to me that if we eliminate assumptions about how God and time interact or are related, then the free will problem of 'you don't have free will because God knew 'before' you made the choice and he's never wrong' may go away.  And I see little basis for assuming we know anything about a realm or being without time, especially in an incomprehensible supreme one.

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

As for understanding God, remember, we are made in God's image, which is an odd statement when you consider that God is invisible, but humans are not invisible.  Clearly the part of us the scriptures mean is the divinity within us.  As above so below.  According to scripture we humans are God writ small, so of course we can know about an all-powerful God better than any Angel ever could.  Were it any other way, we could not have a personal relationship with God. 

I'm only familiar with the made in God's image part, I didn't realize there were other details that this means divinity is within us and we know God better than any angel and that this is all required to have a personal relationship with God.  I don't think this is tied into free will though.

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6 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I agree with @Alchopwn, an all powerful god that meddles in human lives allowing "free will" is impossible.  Either the diety meddles and judges or we have free will.   You can't have it both ways.   You want a diety to control your actions, fine,

Whether we have free will with God is technically separate from any 'judging', as I don't think 'meddle' is a synonym for 'control'.  If god temporarily meddles in my life and say we have a divine intervention where he breaks my ankle so that I can't drive, I've merely lost a possible choice to exercise my free will on.  But we already have a zillion constraints like that, I can't leave the Earth under my own power either but that's not an argument that I wouldn't then have free will because of that inability.

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9 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Whether we have free will with God is technically separate from any 'judging', as I don't think 'meddle' is a synonym for 'control'.  If god temporarily meddles in my life and say we have a divine intervention where he breaks my ankle so that I can't drive, I've merely lost a possible choice to exercise my free will on.  But we already have a zillion constraints like that, I can't leave the Earth under my own power either but that's not an argument that I wouldn't then have free will because of that inability.

Look.  Free Will only exists meaningfully if God doesn't know what you are going to do next.  Otherwise it is an illusion. If God knows your next move, all you have is the illusion of Free Will.  Humans may not know each others' next moves, but Free Will isn't measured against other Humans, only against God, who allegedly gave us Free Will, specifically so we could commit sins and be tormented for them for all eternity.

At what point will Christians finally admit that the God they worship is evil?  The Buddha points out that is is a very poor life choice to worship an evil god, btw. I would have thought this a bit of a no-brainer, but some people need to be reminded apparently, as they identify with God and His immoral acts, and they become evil in the process.

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12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Predestination is a ludicrous concept. Even if a Creator exists beyond the constraints of linear time and knows how the game ends, the players on the field don't. 

Free Will ONLY meaningfully exists with relationship of a human to the Creator.  If the Creator knows your next move you don't really have Free Will, do you?

In fact, Free Will is the ONLY excuse that works for why God couldn't tell Adam and Eve were going to eat the Forbidden Fruit.  I mean, how telegraphed was that little "story twist"?  You'd need to be a complete imbecile not to see it coming, and yet, God, the all-knowing doesn't anticipate that choosing a snake to babysit his mentally handicapped humans might be a bad idea.  I mean, if you got a Drug Dealer to babysit your brain damaged children, and the dealer got them to try drugs, would you see that as an opportunity to kick the kids out of your house?  Or would that be an act of hideous immorality that anybody with an IQ over 80 could have figured out in advance?  It is this sort of repeated scriptural idiocy that has led me to the inescapable conclusion that Christianity is BS.

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1 minute ago, Alchopwn said:

Free Will ONLY meaningfully exists with relationship of a human to the Creator.  If the Creator knows your next move you don't really have Free Will, do you?

In fact, Free Will is the ONLY excuse that works for why God couldn't tell Adam and Eve were going to eat the Forbidden Fruit.  I mean, how telegraphed was that little "story twist"?  You'd need to be a complete imbecile not to see it coming, and yet, God, the all-knowing doesn't anticipate that choosing a snake to babysit his mentally handicapped humans might be a bad idea.  I mean, if you got a Drug Dealer to babysit your brain damaged children, and the dealer got them to try drugs, would you see that as an opportunity to kick the kids out of your house?  Or would that be an act of hideous immorality that anybody with an IQ over 80 could have figured out in advance?  It is this sort of repeated scriptural idiocy that has led me to the inescapable conclusion that Christianity is BS.

Yes, you have free will, because what the creator knows, if one exists, is unknown to you. You can keep your strawman arguments to yourself. Religion is an integral part of civilization and people are addicted to the stuff. They keep reinventing it, over and over again. Whining like a bee-itch over it won't change anything, so get yourself.

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1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, you have free will, because what the creator knows, if one exists, is unknown to you. You can keep your strawman arguments to yourself. Religion is an integral part of civilization and people are addicted to the stuff. They keep reinventing it, over and over again. Whining like a bee-itch over it won't change anything, so get yourself.

No.  If God knows what you will do, you never had Free Will at all.  You had the illusion of Free Will and nothing more.  Free Will only meaningfully exists in relation to the Creator, as He is the final judge.  If He knows the verdict before you are born, then how did you ever have Free Will?  Free Will is lousy theology.   John Calvin's Predestination approach is far more logical and thus more consistent and more believable.

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5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Look.  Free Will only exists meaningfully if God doesn't know what you are going to do next.  Otherwise it is an illusion.

Setting aside weasel words like 'meaningfully', what was wrong with my explanation concerning the unfounded assumptions you are making about God and time?  

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

If He knows the verdict before you are born, then how did you ever have Free Will?

How do you know he didn't know it because you've already made your choice from his perspective?  Why is saying he knows 'before' valid but saying he knows 'after' invalid?  Both involve enormous unknowns about God and our time.  I think you understand that if free will exists then a person knowing after you made the choice what choice you made does not invalidate free will.  But we are locked into the arrow of time, God isn't, and his being all-powerful it seems reasonable to say that he somehow can set up the same situation from his perspective as lowly us.

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15 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Whether we have free will with God is technically separate from any 'judging', as I don't think 'meddle' is a synonym for 'control'.  If god temporarily meddles in my life and say we have a divine intervention where he breaks my ankle so that I can't drive, I've merely lost a possible choice to exercise my free will on.  But we already have a zillion constraints like that, I can't leave the Earth under my own power either but that's not an argument that I wouldn't then have free will because of that inability.

Ergo, the judgment is human judgement based on individual beliefs and has nothing to do with any diety, however that is not how it is taught in fundamentalist and baptist christian churches.   "God gave us free will and laws, so we will be judged on how well we can keep his laws in spite of our free will.   (You are all sinners and only  by the grace of god will you be redeemed)"   That is what I was speaking to.   Yes, we have free will to believe anything we want, however we do have to operate within the constructs of physical laws as we currently understand them (which is usually limited by our beliefs)

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3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

No.  If God knows what you will do, you never had Free Will at all.  You had the illusion of Free Will and nothing more.  Free Will only meaningfully exists in relation to the Creator, as He is the final judge.  If He knows the verdict before you are born, then how did you ever have Free Will?  Free Will is lousy theology.   John Calvin's Predestination approach is far more logical and thus more consistent and more believable.

Poppycock. Some hypothetical entity knowing the future doesn't impact one's choices, at all. Al of one's choices are made of one's own free will, the good ones and bad ones. Since I don't believe "God" interferes in our lives in the slightest, it's a moot point. 

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10 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Poppycock. Some hypothetical entity knowing the future doesn't impact one's choices, at all. Al of one's choices are made of one's own free will, the good ones and bad ones. Since I don't believe "God" interferes in our lives in the slightest, it's a moot point. 

But this isn't just some hypothetical entity, this is the entity that hypothetically created your soul and the entire universe you inhabit, if you believe such poppycock.  The fact is, Free Will only matters in relationship to God.  Nobody else can necessarily predict your actions, so they serve to preserve the illusion of Free Will, but God doesn't.  God knows everything you will ever do even before you are born.  That isn't Free Will.  That is a programmed existence, controlled by the programmer, who will still punish you for behaving the way you were programmed to behave.  As to God not interfering in our lives, well according to scripture, God made our souls.  How much more interfering can you get?  This is where Calvin's Doctrine of Depravity and Grace comes in.  If God chooses to favor you with grace, you get Heaven, if not, you are depraved and get Hell.  The point being, everything is predetermined, which is what physics tells us anyhow.

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10 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Setting aside weasel words like 'meaningfully', what was wrong with my explanation concerning the unfounded assumptions you are making about God and time?  

I think Meaningful is an important qualifier actually.  The point is, God is a programmer, and we are the programs, much like sprites in the Sims or City Skylines.  According to Physics, any system that is understood to enough decimal places loses all semblance of randomness (Chaos Theory btw).  We behave as we are programmed to behave.  The fact is, whether using Physics or an Omnipotent Programmer as our model of reality, the notion of Free Will is b0ll0cks (a good Biblical word).  Interference may well be total, and we are simply unaware of it, but Big Brother is watching you all day every day, being omnipresent.

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9 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

The point is, God is a programmer, and we are the programs, much like sprites in the Sims or City Skylines.

I don't disagree given physics that there's no reason to think we actually have free will.  When you say God is a programmer, is that just based on your particular interpretation of the bible?  

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31 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

But this isn't just some hypothetical entity, this is the entity that hypothetically created your soul and the entire universe you inhabit, if you believe such poppycock.  The fact is, Free Will only matters in relationship to God.  Nobody else can necessarily predict your actions, so they serve to preserve the illusion of Free Will, but God doesn't.  God knows everything you will ever do even before you are born.  That isn't Free Will.  That is a programmed existence, controlled by the programmer, who will still punish you for behaving the way you were programmed to behave.  As to God not interfering in our lives, well according to scripture, God made our souls.  How much more interfering can you get?  This is where Calvin's Doctrine of Depravity and Grace comes in.  If God chooses to favor you with grace, you get Heaven, if not, you are depraved and get Hell.  The point being, everything is predetermined, which is what physics tells us anyhow.

You're displaying your ignorance now. Nothing is predetermined and the Bible is a collection of interesting historical documents. It always amazes me how atheists like you feel compelled prattle incessantly on and on about a God they don't believe in. What's up with that? Let me guess, another disillusioned Catholic apostate.

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On 11/16/2023 at 12:09 PM, Liquid Gardens said:

I don't disagree given physics that there's no reason to think we actually have free will.  When you say God is a programmer, is that just based on your particular interpretation of the bible?  

I would suggest it is one possible interpretation of the Bible, yes.  Allow me to explain.

Christian Simulationism.  

Simulationism is understood as the idea that we human live in a computer simulation.  That would make us programs at some level.  Do we have any reality beyond the system we are in?  Is the world divided into players and NPCs perhaps?  (Given the behavior of Gex Z I think the answer is increasingly "yes"; goddamned phone zombies. Way to cut down on processing requirements programmers, well done.). So, given that in the beginning was the word and the word was God, isn't that a potential reference to a programming language, especially given that Numerological Gematria is implicit in the Hebrew Alphabet, just as numbers seem to be implicit to Reality.  So, is it unreasonable to suppose that God is in fact an Artificial Intelligence that is responsible for programming this simulated universe?  Consider, that Aristotle firmly believed that rats were spontaneously generated from grain, and maggots were spontaneously generated from meat.  Now Aristotle wasn't a complete clown (was he?), so if there had been a causal relationship to observe, he would have seen flies laying eggs on meat and mice making nests for their babies in grain stores, but he didn't.  Instead he records a "spawn" mechanic, much as one might observe in a game like World of Warcraft.  Plato's story of "the troglodytes" seems to reference the world as Simulationism too.This would seem to be evidence that there have been a number of updates since his time, and extra levels of complexity have been added with each patch of Reality.  We can also see that Jesus was able to access "god mode cheat codes" and could respawn and perform other miracles.  I would go so far as to suggest that Christian Simulationism is one of the few interpretations of Christianity that can actually make any theological sense of the mess that is Christian doctrine and scripture.  Is there a biological programmer beyond God?  Is God actually a biological human in another reality which our own reality is based on?  One thing is certain, that if Jesus' prophecy that in the End Times that stars would fall from the sky is to be believed, the only way that can possibly happen is if we are living in a simulation, as only a programmer could take the 100 million stars in this universe, and turn them from balls of flame many times the size of Earth and then turn them into twinkly wallpaper dots and make them fall to Earth.  In essence, Christian Simulationism is one of the few ways that a Christian can remain a believer and still be a rational person in this day and age.  This also explains the immoral hostility of the Beardy Guy on a cloud who judges us; we are being Game Mastered (GMed) by a nerdy neckbeard (no offense buddy, lol, play nice, I'm joking).  God does indeed play dice with the universe, but physics can guess the rolls before they occur.  Baldur's Gate 3 is a great game.

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16 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

So, is it unreasonable to suppose that God is in fact an Artificial Intelligence that is responsible for programming this simulated universe?

I don't think it's unreasonable in the sense that there's something obviously wrong with it and is a possibility of course.  As far as it being an AI I think the main issue from the idea of trying to make the Bible consistent with a simulation is that an AI can only simulate emotions, whereas the Bible's God pretty clearly has actual ones, 'ticked off' being a rather popular one for him.

16 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Consider, that Aristotle firmly believed that rats were spontaneously generated from grain, and maggots were spontaneously generated from meat.  Now Aristotle wasn't a complete clown (was he?), so if there had been a causal relationship to observe, he would have seen flies laying eggs on meat and mice making nests for their babies in grain stores, but he didn't.  Instead he records a "spawn" mechanic, much as one might observe in a game like World of Warcraft. 

No Aristotle was not a clown and there isn't much known about his upbringing but it doesn't seem like he'd necessarily have a ton of first-hand experience with grain stores, wiki mentions he was the son of a physician to a king and after his parents died lived with a guardian in a palace.  It does seem odd though that he'd seemingly be so oblivious to animal births, seems like he may have seen or heard of where puppies and kitties come from and could make the connection. I assume maybe he was thrown off by how quickly rats reproduce and appear compared to other critters.

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

This would seem to be evidence that there have been a number of updates since his time, and extra levels of complexity have been added with each patch of Reality. 

It also seems (maybe, not sure how much we have recorded from Aristotle's time) that someone from his time or earlier may have recorded that they saw rats having babies which would hurt the update thesis; even if this is a simulation there still seems to be ample evidence that people are still just wrong sometimes.  It's interesting to think about it along the lines you are, were people wrong in the past that lightning came from Zeus or has there just been a simulation update and it actually used to be Zeus, but we start getting into issues with mutually exclusive gods and mythological beasts running around simultaneously which gets chaotic pretty quickly.

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Is God actually a biological human in another reality which our own reality is based on?

Ad infinitum, simulations (and turtles) all the way down?  Is it even possible for an alternate reality to be inconsistent with the idea of it also being simulated? 

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

  In essence, Christian Simulationism is one of the few ways that a Christian can remain a believer and still be a rational person in this day and age. 

I guess it depends on what we mean by 'rational'.  God could of course make stars do whatever he wants them to, the main flaw 'rationality'-wise I'd guess with the idea of God existing is that there's no evidence of it.  There isn't any direct evidence that this is a simulation either, it's just that we know at least that simulations can be created but we don't know if something like our universe can be simulated.  The pro and con to both ideas is that they both can ultimately explain everything that occurs, nothing we will observe will ever rule them out or even be evidence against them (I'm using 'God' generically here). But so does the idea that you/I are just dreaming, an idea that using this same logic would have a leg up on the simulation alternative given how abundant dreams are.

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On 11/14/2023 at 1:45 PM, Liquid Gardens said:

Why not, what is your basis for thinking this so outlandish?  Does granting us Free Will take more effort on his part or put something at risk or something?  We can keep going with personal incredulity here, why a supreme being with the qualities you've mentioned above would even create us period is more of a question mark then just giving us Free Will. 

I know we've talked about this before although I'm not sure we got anywhere, but you've put the word 'before' in a statement concerning God.  Why would you think a God that created time would then be subject to it?  Do you think it's 2023 in heaven?

What kind of freedom counts for you?  I've got a pretty much inexhaustible playground of choices here on Earth despite it being an insignificant speck in the universe, because relative to me it is not a speck.  Who cares who supposedly 'owns me', if I have free will I can exercise it in countless ways daily.  You seem to imply that unless we're of equal power as God then we're not free, but not sure.

I've used this example previously, Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address in the 19th Century.  Does our knowing now that's what he did take away his possible free will at the time?  I'd say no, I merely know what free will action he took.  So why can't God work this way since there's no evidence that I'm aware of that he is constrained in any way by our 'time' nor do we understand how that even works with relation to him?  I have to use 'time' words to even say this since time is so fundamental here in our reality, but maybe God knows what free will choice we 'will' make, in this realm that has time, because from his perspective we have 'already' made the choice just like Abe has.  God is supreme, not time, so from his perspective maybe everything that 'will' happen 'already' has and is complete. 

It seems to me that if we eliminate assumptions about how God and time interact or are related, then the free will problem of 'you don't have free will because God knew 'before' you made the choice and he's never wrong' may go away.  And I see little basis for assuming we know anything about a realm or being without time, especially in an incomprehensible supreme one.

I'm only familiar with the made in God's image part, I didn't realize there were other details that this means divinity is within us and we know God better than any angel and that this is all required to have a personal relationship with God.  I don't think this is tied into free will though.

Hi LG

I think god is an excuse not to be responsible for one's action for some people. If free will is an illusion damn it's been a great ride as far as I am concerned.🤣

god obviously had a plan, not sure what it was being just a pawn in a game but he must have had some opponent to make those moves with me.:whistle:

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On 11/15/2023 at 7:45 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

Why not, what is your basis for thinking this so outlandish?  Does granting us Free Will take more effort on his part or put something at risk or something?  We can keep going with personal incredulity here, why a supreme being with the qualities you've mentioned above would even create us period is more of a question mark then just giving us Free Will. 

I see no evidence of Free Will vis God, so as that is the only relationship where Free Will matters, there is no Free Will, only the illusion of Free Will.  If the supreme being made us, and owns us, and knows our lives before we are born, then we never actually had Free Will and John Calvin's theology was right all along.  It works even less when you realize that the only reason for Free Will to exist within the theology is as an explanation for evil, and it falls over then, because Angels don't have Free Will and yet somehow Satan, who was an Angel, achieved Free Will all on his own somehow.  Or did God make Satan that way, so he would fall?  In which case God is the true Author of Evil, not Satan, who is merely another of God's victims, built to fail and be judged and punished for eternity for finite crimes.  See ?  Free Will doesn't work as theology or philosophy. 

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4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

If the supreme being made us, and owns us, and knows our lives before we are born

I still don't know why you are using 'before' with God, this is an assumption. What date and time is it right now in heaven?  I personally think this question does not apply and at worst is unknown.

4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Satan, who was an Angel,

Don't think the Bible ever specifies that Satan is an angel.  Nor does it say that angels don't have free will.

5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Free Will doesn't work as theology or philosophy. 

It's the only way this theology does work, since punishing beings for things they have no control over is difficult to reconcile with 'good'.

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10 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

If free will is an illusion damn it's been a great ride as far as I am concerned.🤣

Exactly, and I think it's moot to our life here.  If we don't actually have free will we still have the most awesome free will simulator installed in our brains.

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I never saw the big deal or mystery with Free Will.   a bird can fly this way, or that.. I can stand up or sit here ..   god?   Anyway, for me it comes down to this..   is the entire Universe Dead  (Oh!, except for some tenacious biological organisms crawling around on this world..and maybe that one too) ??       Of all the impossibilities I can ponder ,that, seems the impossibilust. :P    Look at creation & see the creator.        ???        Ohya..We’re in the beautiful desert for the ****winter* **   now :)  🌵  The Ravens flew over us at sun up . 

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