docyabut2 Posted November 19, 2023 #101 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) Ossuary of Judah son of Jesus.? Brothers of Jesus The brothers of Jesus or the adelphoi (Greek: ἀδελφοί, translit. adelphoí, lit. "of the same womb")[1][Notes 1] are named in the New Testament as James, Joses (a form of Joseph), Simon, Jude,[2] and unnamed sisters are mentioned in Mark and Matthew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus#:~:text=The brothers of Jesus or,mentioned in Mark and Matthew. I think when Jesus `s father died he took the support of his brother Jude . Edited November 19, 2023 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted November 19, 2023 #102 Share Posted November 19, 2023 On 11/7/2023 at 12:10 AM, Sojo said: I pray that if there is anything of truth and value in it that I need to retain, then I ask for help to mentally retain what I need and can make sense of. I must admit, this is one of the better prayers I have ever heard of. I like it, and will start using it myself, I think. On 11/7/2023 at 12:10 AM, Sojo said: One other prayer I have always prayed is that since I believe there is what could be considered an optimal life path through this world for each person, I pray that the Spirit will help guide and lead me to the most optimal path(s) we can have for me and my family members. I hope you are doing better than me then. I prayed for the world to grow in wisdom and compassion and all I got was this lousy Woke t-shirt. 😄 On 11/7/2023 at 12:10 AM, Sojo said: I just follow what I feel are my internal spiritual promptings, as we go through life and try to stay spiritually minded. I know you and others as well as myself still have many questions that don't seem to be answerable, but I've learned to enjoy the journey and do the best I can. Obviously I can't know your inner journey, but this sounds about right for most spiritual practice. On 11/7/2023 at 12:10 AM, Sojo said: I do think there is a plan for universe beings to be able to grow, learn, and become all they are meant to become as we live and learn. So, you belong to the "World as Classroom" paradigm. It is certainly more positive than many philosophies. Perhaps the world is becoming incrementally better? (When it isn't becoming incrementally worse). How do you account for the sheer worthlessness of Gen Z if your "World as Classroom" philosophy is the case? Are they a giant nest of reincarnated ants that need to be brought up to speed about being human? It certainly seems so. I am now waving my cane and spitting my dentures as I spout invective at those whippersnappers. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted November 19, 2023 #103 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) On 11/19/2023 at 4:36 AM, Liquid Gardens said: Don't think the Bible ever specifies that Satan is an angel. Nor does it say that angels don't have free will. The Book of Job identifies Satan as a Son of God, and therefore an angel. As angels are extensions of God, they have no free will, unless God chooses for them to fall. On 11/19/2023 at 4:36 AM, Liquid Gardens said: I still don't know why you are using 'before' with God, this is an assumption. What date and time is it right now in heaven? I personally think this question does not apply and at worst is unknown. Your assumption then is that God is external to time. Fair enough. That would mean that God can see all of time and know all of time. This is just further proof of the fact that God knows and can control everything we do, without us having any knowledge of it. With power like that it would be very easy to control every element of what happens to our species and every other species on Earth. And let's face it, that is what "almighty" means. Further proof there is no Free Will. On 11/19/2023 at 4:36 AM, Liquid Gardens said: It's the only way this theology does work, since punishing beings for things they have no control over is difficult to reconcile with 'good'. On the contrary, Free Will fails as theology and philosophy for a number of reasons. Theology NEEDS free will to justify why people need to go to hell. They must have chosen to do evil, but they can't make that choice unless they have agency ("agency" is a much better term than Free Will imo). Now, angels only have agency with regards to the fact that they do God's will, unless they fall. Free Will is doing what one likes without God telling you what to do. So, Free Will exists only to allow people to do evil things. Free Will is the excuse for evil's existence. However, God is the Author of Good and Evil for He made the world. More importantly, god is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent, allegedly, so He is always both the sinner and the sinned against. Humans are made in God's image (which is odd, because God is invisible and we are visible), so our sins merely reflect the evils that lurk in God. If every particle of our being is suffused by God's omnipresence, then it is a bit ridiculous to suggest that we ever had Free Will, as we are basically living in Orwell's 1984 watched over by Big Brother, who is looking for an excuse to stamp on a human face forever. John Calvin teaches Total Depravity. This is the idea that human nature is evil, and sinful, and that all of us deserve hell as a baseline due to original sin (I have discussed this issue elsewhere and I don't agree with Calvin about this at all, but I digress). Humanity is a project that was sabotaged in the Garden of Eden by the forces of evil. This blasphemy means we are all damned for destruction unless God intervenes, seeing some worth in us. For Calvin, there is no Free Will, only Grace. How can Free Will exist in a world with an almighty God? It is a contradiction, like God creating for himself a stone so big he cannot move it. So Calvin does away with the theology of Free Will altogether. Instead, all humanity is doomed, save for the Elect. Upon the Elect, God bestows Grace, and thus they receive salvation. Calvinism by doing away with Free Will acknowledges a deterministic universe, but Calvinism fails to adequately explain the Problem of Evil, as it has no concept like Entropy to explain how a perfect system falls apart. Thus they must eventually admit that God is the Author of Evil. This is why I can never be a Christian. The philosophy has too many flaws. If you want a good explanation of the Problem of Evil, you need Buddhism. The Buddhists say that whether for the God, the Subluminary Powers, Man, Beast, Ghost or Demon, the same rules hold true. That the seed of evil is ignorance, which leads to greed, which leads to anger when frustrated. The Buddhists would point to the Jealous God of the Jews and say, look at this guy... Too ignorant to know how the Water Cycle works, as shown by his own scriptures and yet He claims he made the universe. He claims he owns everything and is everywhere, and yet he is supremely jealous of other gods. Finally, he is so wrathful that he has created an eternal gulag to punish finite crimes with eternal torment. Here is the evil. Buddha also said "It is a bad thing to worship evil gods". Edited November 19, 2023 by Alchopwn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted November 20, 2023 #104 Share Posted November 20, 2023 (edited) On 11/18/2023 at 8:45 AM, Liquid Gardens said: I don't think it's unreasonable in the sense that there's something obviously wrong with it and is a possibility of course. As far as it being an AI I think the main issue from the idea of trying to make the Bible consistent with a simulation is that an AI can only simulate emotions, whereas the Bible's God pretty clearly has actual ones, 'ticked off' being a rather popular one for him. This is a bad point. For a start, there is nothing especially mysterious about emotions. They aren't "spiritual" in any meaningful sense. Emotions are simply neurochemistry. They are chemicals released in response to stimuli that lend a certain perspective "spin" on one's understanding of a situation. If neurochemists are allowed to inject a brain with the appropriate chemicals they can induce very subtle emotional states like a mild melancholy quite easily. Emotions are essentially a more primitive part of the mind than actual thought, and as a result, we see emotions being common in animals as a sort of proto-reason-like filter on information, which is how they serve us. The notion that our AIs can't simulate emotions isn't correct. They can, they are still falling into that uncanny valley area however. There is no reason to suppose that a more advanced simulation couldn't replicate emotions perfectly. Say, a system like a God A.I. might use. On 11/18/2023 at 8:45 AM, Liquid Gardens said: No Aristotle was not a clown and there isn't much known about his upbringing but it doesn't seem like he'd necessarily have a ton of first-hand experience with grain stores, wiki mentions he was the son of a physician to a king and after his parents died lived with a guardian in a palace. It does seem odd though that he'd seemingly be so oblivious to animal births, seems like he may have seen or heard of where puppies and kitties come from and could make the connection. I assume maybe he was thrown off by how quickly rats reproduce and appear compared to other critters. Everything Aristotle ever said was wrong. He was perhaps the most consistently wrong philosopher in human history. Probably his most heinous sin was that Aristotle postulated the scientific method and then rejected it on the most spurious grounds, that essentially "he knew better", such was his hubris. Aristotle's Bestiary is total clownishness, with frogs turning into geese and flying south for the winter, based on the similar look of their feet of all things, etc. You will also delight to Aristotle's moral justification for slavery amongst his other demented ethical philosophies. Aristotle believed that a genius like himself could unravel the mysteries of the world by the power of his mind alone, without reference to evidence required. This is why he is so popular with Christians; they are also dumb enough to think you can understand the world without evidence. On 11/18/2023 at 8:45 AM, Liquid Gardens said: It also seems (maybe, not sure how much we have recorded from Aristotle's time) that someone from his time or earlier may have recorded that they saw rats having babies which would hurt the update thesis; even if this is a simulation there still seems to be ample evidence that people are still just wrong sometimes. It's interesting to think about it along the lines you are, were people wrong in the past that lightning came from Zeus or has there just been a simulation update and it actually used to be Zeus, but we start getting into issues with mutually exclusive gods and mythological beasts running around simultaneously which gets chaotic pretty quickly. It isn't chaotic, it is complex, and let's face facts; the world is complex, and the fact that most minds don't adapt to complexity quickly means they think it is chaotic. Physics tells us that when any system is known to enough decimal places, it becomes deterministic. In fact, the Greeks had a fully fleshed out cosmological mythology that explained pretty much everything they encountered. It was wrong of course, except in an allegorical sense perhaps (being very generous), but it was quite well reasoned for all its flaws. On 11/18/2023 at 8:45 AM, Liquid Gardens said: Ad infinitum, simulations (and turtles) all the way down? Is it even possible for an alternate reality to be inconsistent with the idea of it also being simulated? Exactly. This is why I don't accept the reality of God or the Simulation. For me, the magic of the universe lies in the way reality aligns itself to mathematics. This insight, attributed to Pythagoras, is the most profound in human history imo. The statement God=0 is something that Christians and Atheists can potentially agree on. On 11/18/2023 at 8:45 AM, Liquid Gardens said: I guess it depends on what we mean by 'rational'. God could of course make stars do whatever he wants them to, the main flaw 'rationality'-wise I'd guess with the idea of God existing is that there's no evidence of it. There isn't any direct evidence that this is a simulation either, it's just that we know at least that simulations can be created but we don't know if something like our universe can be simulated. The pro and con to both ideas is that they both can ultimately explain everything that occurs, nothing we will observe will ever rule them out or even be evidence against them (I'm using 'God' generically here). But so does the idea that you/I are just dreaming, an idea that using this same logic would have a leg up on the simulation alternative given how abundant dreams are. I am using the standard dictionary definition of rational. The point I was trying to make is that one of the few ways a rational person can remain a Christian is if they construe reality as a simulation wherein the programmer can introduce characters like talking @sses without necessarily destroying the underlying simulation. You want miracles? Enable God Mode. I am proposing nothing anything much more complex than that. I don't think we live in an MMO, but it is a plausible way of reconciling Christianity with Reality that it isn't on speaking terms with. Edited November 20, 2023 by Alchopwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 20, 2023 #105 Share Posted November 20, 2023 12 hours ago, Alchopwn said: This is a bad point. I think you missed the point. You asked if God could be an AI, not technically whether an AI can simulate a God. I was just trying to put a stake in the ground with my mention of emotions, right now we don't know how to make AI's actually feel things, they need different hardware for that. Of course something of unknown potential (AI) could simulate something, but that question seems to answer itself. 12 hours ago, Alchopwn said: It isn't chaotic, it is complex, I think you missed the point. Your idea that things in the past actually happened the way people said they did (rats created from abiogenesis, Zeus) but there's been a simulation software update since then, when applied to everything that people proposed in the past, is chaotic. You'd have mutually exclusive gods running around, Thor and Zeus both throwing lightning bolts, along with even greater gods who can violate natural laws as part of their powers all doing so at the same time. That is chaos. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 20, 2023 #106 Share Posted November 20, 2023 13 hours ago, Alchopwn said: The Book of Job identifies Satan as a Son of God, and therefore an angel. As angels are extensions of God, they have no free will, unless God chooses for them to fall. Where does it say that the only Sons of God are angels? Where does it say extensions of God have no free will? 13 hours ago, Alchopwn said: This is just further proof of the fact that God knows and can control everything we do "Knows" doesn't mean "control", nor does 'almighty' necessarily mean something that is controlling everything. Almighty does usually infer something way beyond our comprehension, but you as an inconsequential being with a limited understanding relative to the almighty somehow thinks they know what the almighty can, cannot, and must do. 13 hours ago, Alchopwn said: Humans are made in God's image (which is odd, because God is invisible and we are visible), so our sins merely reflect the evils that lurk in God. If every particle of our being is suffused by God's omnipresence, then it is a bit ridiculous to suggest that we ever had Free Will, as we are basically living in Orwell's 1984 watched over by Big Brother, who is looking for an excuse to stamp on a human face forever. That's an okay opinion but runs afoul of what I just mentioned about knowing things about things you can't know. Omnipresence does not mean omnicontrolling. And you've apparently made assumptions about what something vague (we are made in God's image) means specifically, there are other possibilities then the idea that our sins reflect evils in God that can be derived from that. 13 hours ago, Alchopwn said: How can Free Will exist in a world with an almighty God? On what basis can you know, let alone put restrictions on, what an almighty being can and cannot do? Your question has the simplest of answers that derives only from the definition of 'almighty': free will can exist in a world if an almighty God simply wills it to be so. This isn't a 'rock too big for God to lift', that formulation has its own problems and is a contradiction. It would be more of a contradiction if an almighty God cannot make free will exist, this means it's not 'almighty'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojo Posted November 20, 2023 #107 Share Posted November 20, 2023 15 hours ago, Alchopwn said: How do you account for the sheer worthlessness of Gen Z if your "World as Classroom" philosophy is the case? Are they a giant nest of reincarnated ants that need to be brought up to speed about being human? It certainly seems so It does seem there's a cyclic aspect sometimes. I just read an article that reiterated the concept of: "Hard times create strong [individuals]--(the original and article said "men"); strong individuals create good times; good times create weak individuals; weak individuals create hard times". I do think there's a filtering process involved. Only those who are ready get to move on and "graduate", or those ready to enter the Kingdom so to speak do move on to greater understanding and even more ventures. I don't know how it all works though at the Karmic grass-roots level. That would be such a detailed spiritual operation of fine tuning that to me it would be like understanding how all the forces of the universe work in making it operate. Maybe there are groupings of those who are "birds of a feather". Maybe some have to wait for another "year" or "semester" of classwork before they're ready for being of use in helping create a better world and participating in the larger society where things are so serious, mistakes aren't as temporal with greater consequences and call for acts of restoration that involve intensive training or re-training . Some may be in for some really rough times. I trust that whatever means is used, individuals can experience whatever it is they need to experience to come to an understanding of that which they need to realize. (How's that for generalization?😁) Regards, Sojo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted November 20, 2023 #108 Share Posted November 20, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: Where does it say that the only Sons of God are angels? Where does it say extensions of God have no free will? To explain why Sons of God in this context in Hebrew means angels would likely take about 250 words, and I don't do unpaid translation work. To explain why Angels have no free will is due to the fact that only God, Humans and Fallen Angels allegedly have Free Will in monotheist theologies. Angels are extensions of God in the same way that your nose or feet are extensions of yourself. Angels like the Metatron, for example, are the Voice of God, or other Divine Aspects. Body Parts aren't generally assumed to have separate agency. Of course this is Christian Theology, and has nothing to do with Judaism, which would likely involve Rabbis quoting scripture at each other for 16 hour without a satisfactory conclusion. Edited November 20, 2023 by Alchopwn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 20, 2023 #109 Share Posted November 20, 2023 45 minutes ago, Alchopwn said: To explain why Sons of God in this context in Hebrew means angels would likely take about 250 words, and I don't do unpaid translation work. You're not the only translator of course, especially concerning the most popular book ever written, so one would think that someone has already done this translation work for you, a simple link should be sufficient. I did google these questions before asking you. Keep in mind that the question is why 'sons of God' refers only to angels. 46 minutes ago, Alchopwn said: To explain why Angels have no free will is due to the fact that only God, Humans and Fallen Angels allegedly have Free Will in monotheist theologies. Ha, that's not really 'due to the fact', that is just a restatement of your same claim. You've certainly noticed that monotheist theologies have at least hundreds if not thousands of variations, which is why I asked for what should be a simple bible reference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted November 20, 2023 #110 Share Posted November 20, 2023 49 minutes ago, Alchopwn said: To explain why Sons of God in this context in Hebrew means angels would likely take about 250 words, and I don't do unpaid translation work. To explain why Angels have no free will is due to the fact that only God, Humans and Fallen Angels allegedly have Free Will in monotheist theologies. Angels are extensions of God in the same way that your nose or feet are extensions of yourself. Angels like the Metatron, for example, are the Voice of God, or other Divine Aspects. Body Parts aren't generally assumed to have separate agency. Of course this is Christian Theology, and has nothing to do with Judaism, which would likely involve Rabbis quoting scripture at each other for 16 hour without a satisfactory conclusion. One day when the son's of God came to attend on YHWH, among them came Satan. Another day, the son's of God came to attend on YHWH and Satan came with them too. So YHWH (in his omnipotence?) Said to Satan 'Where have you been?' 2 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: You're not the only translator of course, especially concerning the most popular book ever written, so one would think that someone has already done this translation work for you, a simple link should be sufficient. I did google these questions before asking you. Keep in mind that the question is why 'sons of God' refers only to angels. Ha, that's not really 'due to the fact', that is just a restatement of your same claim. You've certainly noticed that monotheist theologies have at least hundreds if not thousands of variations, which is why I asked for what should be a simple bible reference? Look above.... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 20, 2023 #111 Share Posted November 20, 2023 22 minutes ago, Piney said: Look above.... Hmm, that seems to indicate that it is ambiguous whether Satan is a 'Son of God'/angel. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted November 20, 2023 #112 Share Posted November 20, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: Hmm, that seems to indicate that it is ambiguous whether Satan is a 'Son of God'/angel. In my study Bible it's annoted as a "son of god" being a member of "God's court and counsel" including Satan. Edited November 20, 2023 by Piney brain fart 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 20, 2023 #113 Share Posted November 20, 2023 21 minutes ago, Piney said: In my study Bible it's annoted as a "son of god" being a member of "God's court and counsel" including Satan. Thanks, but this doesn't mean then that Satan is an angel I don't think, nor that they don't have free will. Outside of the implied omniscience problem you noted, the quote, "So YHWH (in his omnipotence?) Said to Satan 'Where have you been?'" counters the idea that Satan doesn't have free will also, since the alternative is that God is controlling him and thus he knows where he's been since he directs all of Satan's movements. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted November 20, 2023 #114 Share Posted November 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: Thanks, but this doesn't mean then that Satan is an angel I don't think, nor that they don't have free will. Outside of the implied omniscience problem you noted, the quote, "So YHWH (in his omnipotence?) Said to Satan 'Where have you been?'" counters the idea that Satan doesn't have free will also, since the alternative is that God is controlling him and thus he knows where he's been since he directs all of Satan's movements. In Job God asks Satan where's he been a couple of times. But in Rabbanical writings that date later Satan is Samael and a higher order angel. In Old Testament scripture, not everyone follows God's plan (Saul for example) and a lot of It talks about not following God's rules. Genesis has Angels sleeping with humans and Enoch has Angels revolting. But I'm with Pelagius and there is no master plan because everyone has free will. I think the "Master Plan" and no free will originated with later Christian writers. Calvin was a notorious promoter of it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted November 21, 2023 #115 Share Posted November 21, 2023 14 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: Keep in mind that the question is why 'sons of God' refers only to angels. The truth is that the whole idea of Sons of God actually translates back to the pantheist Semitic Pantheon, where Yahweh was a bit player and El Elyon (the Sun) was the true god. Many Jews don't like to talk about this, and most Christians are ignorant of it. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted November 21, 2023 #116 Share Posted November 21, 2023 13 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: Thanks, but this doesn't mean then that Satan is an angel I don't think, nor that they don't have free will. Outside of the implied omniscience problem you noted, the quote, "So YHWH (in his omnipotence?) Said to Satan 'Where have you been?'" counters the idea that Satan doesn't have free will also, since the alternative is that God is controlling him and thus he knows where he's been since he directs all of Satan's movements. No, it's an obvious continuity error that only a human would make. An omniscient God wouldn't make such an error. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted November 21, 2023 #117 Share Posted November 21, 2023 14 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: Ha, that's not really 'due to the fact', that is just a restatement of your same claim. You've certainly noticed that monotheist theologies have at least hundreds if not thousands of variations, which is why I asked for what should be a simple bible reference? So where in the Bible are all the references to Free Will? I have never found 1 that mentions it by name. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted November 21, 2023 #118 Share Posted November 21, 2023 I believe Alchopwn has made the best arguments in this thread and I declare him the thread winner, by my own authority. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 21, 2023 #119 Share Posted November 21, 2023 8 hours ago, Alchopwn said: So where in the Bible are all the references to Free Will? I have never found 1 that mentions it by name. Then how do you know there isn't any? I believe there are instances where people are encouraged to follow God's commandments and such, no need for that if the followers don't have free will. Does it mention that God controls all that people do for that matter? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted November 21, 2023 #120 Share Posted November 21, 2023 11 hours ago, Alchopwn said: The truth is that the whole idea of Sons of God actually translates back to the pantheist Semitic Pantheon, where Yahweh was a bit player and El Elyon (the Sun) was the true god. Many Jews don't like to talk about this, and most Christians are ignorant of it. El slept with a woman on a beach and gave the twin children to his wife Asherah to nurse. They were Salem and I forgot the other one. But I do remember they were the morning and evening stars. (Venus) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted November 21, 2023 #121 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Piney said: El slept with a woman on a beach and gave the twin children to his wife Asherah to nurse. They were Salem and I forgot the other one. But I do remember they were the morning and evening stars. (Venus) Shalim and Shahar. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted November 21, 2023 #122 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said: Shalim and Shahar. God went "full Zeus" there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted November 21, 2023 #123 Share Posted November 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, Piney said: God went "full Zeus" there. Eosphorus and Phosphorus. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted November 21, 2023 #124 Share Posted November 21, 2023 7 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: Then how do you know there isn't any? The "any" referring to verses relating to Free Will? Because there aren't any references specifically to that much over-used term in the whole Bible. There are a few verses that hint at it tangentially, but they are very tangential, and altogether unsatisfactory. I would go so far as to suggest that the theology of Free Will is not in the Bible, and is entirely an artifact of later minds who were running to cover the flaws in their arguments... As an example, "why do humans go to hell if they have no agency and thus cannot be blamed for their sins?" Thus agency must be invented for humans in the case of the "Free Willies" and total depravity in the case of the Calvinists. Both, however, are theological inserts, that only matter in terms of generations who came later and asked difficult questions that perplexed the theologians of their day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 22, 2023 #125 Share Posted November 22, 2023 16 hours ago, Alchopwn said: The "any" referring to verses relating to Free Will? Sorry, that wasn't clear, where are the verses that say we don't have free will? We may also be touching on something we don't have information for, although maybe you know: what was the default for the people at the time? Did most people at the time assume they had free will and it's only later that the idea of not having free will began to spread? That seems like how it happened again given the encouragement for people to follow laws, God, etc, which don't make as much sense in the context of people not being able to make free choices. If by default everyone assumed that we had free will then that's a potential explanation why the Bible writers didn't bother to mention it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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