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Heaven


8th_wall

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19 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Sorry, that wasn't clear, where are the verses that say we don't have free will? 

No.  My point was there are no verses that mention Free Will.

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13 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

No.  My point was there are no verses that mention Free Will.

Okay, duly noted.  Since it doesn't mention it at all though it doesn't support that we don't have it (according to the Bible).

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On 11/7/2022 at 7:16 PM, 8th_wall said:

Just earlier I was struck with the feeling of knowing again and what I knew was that I had already been dead and came back to life (this is life after death).  Death I was when born and earnt my life by the will of God.

What thoughts have ye on the psychological effects of life after death and the eternities it implies?  Heaven is eternal but not necessarily and hell necessarily is.

Also, what do you make of the odd experience of "I know" when filled with confidence certainty and everything besides not being precisely sure what it is that you know?  I had this experience for the first time when I was 6.  Instilled with a good out look for the future and that everything was fine and dandy.

post-101621-0-90157800-1394864555_thumb.jpgpost-101621-0-86015400-1405614937_thumb.jpgpost-101621-0-22133800-1419361181_thumb.jpgfascinating.jpg.405cdf7b5b927b02681f28abf2d9711b.jpg

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10 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Okay, duly noted.  Since it doesn't mention it at all though it doesn't support that we don't have it (according to the Bible).

If a concept is central to a religious philosophy, it is normally included by name in the central text multiple times with examples for clarification.  The take-away message here is that Free Will or its lack was not an important concept to Jesus or his disciples.

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On 11/22/2023 at 8:44 PM, Alchopwn said:

If a concept is central to a religious philosophy, it is normally included by name in the central text multiple times with examples for clarification.  The take-away message here is that Free Will or its lack was not an important concept to Jesus or his disciples.

Or it's such a baseline belief that there's no need to mention it, Jesus wasn't really a philosopher.  Why tell people that they should love God with all their heart if they have no control over that choice?

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Just now, Liquid Gardens said:

Or it's such a baseline belief that there's no need to mention it, Jesus wasn't really a philosopher.  Why tell people that they should love God with all their heart if they have no control over that choice?

Okay, so why is there no mention of Free Will in the Torah then?  Not... one... word...  And you know how much rabbis thrive on argument...

I've had this argument with a rabbi btw.

Edited by Alchopwn
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1 minute ago, Alchopwn said:

Okay, so why is there no mention of Free Will in the Torah then?  Not... one... word...  And you know how much rabbis thrive on argument...

What is the point of the Ten Commandments if the followers don't have a choice and cannot will themselves to adhere to them?  Does the Torah mention anywhere that God is controlling everything that everyone does?

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6 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

What is the point of the Ten Commandments if the followers don't have a choice and cannot will themselves to adhere to them?  Does the Torah mention anywhere that God is controlling everything that everyone does?

Claiming one has no free will is an abrogation of self-responsibility. It would mean there are no wrong choices, since all our actions are preordained.

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21 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Or it's such a baseline belief that there's no need to mention it, Jesus wasn't really a philosopher.  Why tell people that they should love God with all their heart if they have no control over that choice?

The Calvinist argument your born to be a good person (Christian) or born to be a sinner probably comes from observation. I forgot ole John's argument. 

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23 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

What is the point of the Ten Commandments if the followers don't have a choice and cannot will themselves to adhere to them?  Does the Torah mention anywhere that God is controlling everything that everyone does?

On the contrary, 1 Corinthians 2:7, and I quote:

"But we speak of God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory."

So the Bible doesn't ever mention Free Will, but it does mention Predestination.  God is indeed controlling everything everyone does.  Free will is thus proven to be a heresy.

 

Edited by Alchopwn
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3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

On the contrary, 1 Corinthians 2:7, and I quote:

"But we speak of God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory."

So the Bible doesn't ever mention Free Will, but it does mention Predestination.  God is indeed controlling everything everyone does.  Free will is thus proven to be a heresy.

 

Oh great. Now the apostate is pronouncing heresies. 

John of Damascus from Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith:

"We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness, nor does He choose to compel virtue."

So, our freedom of choice is real and those choices count for something.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God, much to his chagrin and paid the price for their willful disobedience.

Genesis Chapter III

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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9 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Oh great. Now the apostate is pronouncing heresies. 

I'm not an apostate, I was never baptized and have never believed.  What I have done is studied what believers think they believe.  I have also studied heresies.  It was part and parcel of my job  translating religions texts to understand the anthropological context of the scriptures.  I have a Doctorate in Theology btw, I just don't put it on my business card.

9 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

John of Damascus from Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith:

"We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness, nor does He choose to compel virtue."

So... You are an Orthodox Christian now HC?  Also, where does this suspicious quote come from?  I don't see a Biblical reference anywhere?

9 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, our freedom of choice is real and those choices count for something.

I refer you again to 1 Corinthians 2:7.  No, you don't have any real freedom, everything is predestined.  How could it be otherwise when God is all-knowing and all seeing and almight and has a perfect plan?  You have the illusion of free will, but you don't really have free will.  Chaos theory tells us that any system whose behavior is known to enough decimal places becomes completely predictable. So too your life, if known to enough decimal places, would become completely predictable.  You think you see you have choices, but in fact you have never been in control of your life.  Surely you should rejoice that you never really sinned, and that silly parable about the two sets of footprints in the sand was actually of God the puppet master, and you, the puppet merely going thru the motions of your life.  How can it be otherwise if God is omnipresent?

9 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

So... are you arguing that this is a continuity error?  That an All-knowing God should have known what Adam and Eve were going to do next?  I have always seen this whole story as proof that God isn't omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibelevolent, and has no perfect plan.  Of course you can also read it as God BSing the angels about the danger of humanity for some arcane reason.  I mean, we know from a scientific perspective that the story of Adam and Eve is complete nonsense. If our species had ever been reduced to a single breeding pair, we would have been extinct within seven generations of inbreeding due to circular chromosomes rendering us crippled and infertile.  Of course the knowledge that the story that there was no Adam and Eve means that there was no Original Sin, so Jesus died to save us from nothing.  So the way I see it, either:

(a) God genuinely didn't know about Adam and Eve eating the fruit, which means God isn't omniscient.

or

(b) God knew about it, but lied to the angels about this, and falsely cast humanity out of Eden, which isn't omnibenevolent. 

and

(c) Given that God has all the power in the universe, he could have simply gone back in time and corrected the mistake, perhaps he isn't omnipotent?

In any case, this is a very bad piece of evidence to bring up as the story of Adam and Eve does a lot to discredit Christianity.

In any case, the best answer is that God knew what was going to happen, and is not omnibenevolent.  Isaiah 45:7 tells us from God's own mouth that he is the creator of Good and Evil, and this explains why God allows evil to prosper, but also creates a giant gulag, not for people who do evil. but for those who don't acknowledge him.  We see God's many atrocities, and can only reach the conclusion that God isn't very benevolent at all.  We must all learn to love Big Brother.

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@AlchopwnHi Al,

I know you have a lot of expertise and understanding of languages and theologies, but I do have one question that I don't quite understand yet.

How are you able to equate the ability to pre-know what is going to happen (or even the ability to set up something that you know will produce certain results), with actually being the controlling factor in any and all decisions made by any and all biological mind beings?

Even if suddenly I had the ability to foresee all that was going to happen (how the ability came to me is irrelevant), I still am not the controlling Will that determines what action or path will be chosen by any of the entities involved in creating the outcomes.

I don't see how you think the knowing is the same as the doing.

Sojo

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12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I'm not an apostate, I was never baptized and have never believed.  What I have done is studied what believers think they believe.  I have also studied heresies.  It was part and parcel of my job  translating religions texts to understand the anthropological context of the scriptures.  I have a Doctorate in Theology btw, I just don't put it on my business card.

So... You are an Orthodox Christian now HC?  Also, where does this suspicious quote come from?  I don't see a Biblical reference anywhere?

I refer you again to 1 Corinthians 2:7.  No, you don't have any real freedom, everything is predestined.  How could it be otherwise when God is all-knowing and all seeing and almight and has a perfect plan?  You have the illusion of free will, but you don't really have free will.  Chaos theory tells us that any system whose behavior is known to enough decimal places becomes completely predictable. So too your life, if known to enough decimal places, would become completely predictable.  You think you see you have choices, but in fact you have never been in control of your life.  Surely you should rejoice that you never really sinned, and that silly parable about the two sets of footprints in the sand was actually of God the puppet master, and you, the puppet merely going thru the motions of your life.  How can it be otherwise if God is omnipresent?

So... are you arguing that this is a continuity error?  That an All-knowing God should have known what Adam and Eve were going to do next?  I have always seen this whole story as proof that God isn't omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibelevolent, and has no perfect plan.  Of course you can also read it as God BSing the angels about the danger of humanity for some arcane reason.  I mean, we know from a scientific perspective that the story of Adam and Eve is complete nonsense. If our species had ever been reduced to a single breeding pair, we would have been extinct within seven generations of inbreeding due to circular chromosomes rendering us crippled and infertile.  Of course the knowledge that the story that there was no Adam and Eve means that there was no Original Sin, so Jesus died to save us from nothing.  So the way I see it, either:

(a) God genuinely didn't know about Adam and Eve eating the fruit, which means God isn't omniscient.

or

(b) God knew about it, but lied to the angels about this, and falsely cast humanity out of Eden, which isn't omnibenevolent. 

and

(c) Given that God has all the power in the universe, he could have simply gone back in time and corrected the mistake, perhaps he isn't omnipotent?

In any case, this is a very bad piece of evidence to bring up as the story of Adam and Eve does a lot to discredit Christianity.

In any case, the best answer is that God knew what was going to happen, and is not omnibenevolent.  Isaiah 45:7 tells us from God's own mouth that he is the creator of Good and Evil, and this explains why God allows evil to prosper, but also creates a giant gulag, not for people who do evil. but for those who don't acknowledge him.  We see God's many atrocities, and can only reach the conclusion that God isn't very benevolent at all.  We must all learn to love Big Brother.

Oh, what a pillar of wisdom you are, "Doctor". Finally, through your reams of pontifications you reach the logical conclusion i.e. God, whatever that may be, is not our great sugar daddy in the sky. I don't pretend to know anything about God and certainly don't place any certainty on what some goatherd wrote, thousands of years go. I can debate a religion within the framework of a Faiths tenets, scriptures and beliefs. It's quite clear that God gave Adam and Eve free will and of their own free will they chose disobedience. If the Abrahamic God knows all things, he would have to exist outside the constraints of linear time. So, past, present and future are all one to him. I can't imagine how a mind so vast and timeless would think. Jewish creation myths are quite entertaining fairy tales, but I prefer Grimms. 

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On 11/25/2023 at 9:00 AM, Alchopwn said:

On the contrary, 1 Corinthians 2:7, and I quote:

"But we speak of God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory."

So the Bible doesn't ever mention Free Will, but it does mention Predestination.  God is indeed controlling everything everyone does. 

Okay, so since you are a translator I can assume that this is a fairly accurate translation?  Because 'wisdom' to me means in English something way different than 'every decision you make in your life'.  And it seems we just need to look back a chapter to see what kinds of things are being referred to by 'wisdom':

1 Corinthians 24 - but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 32 - It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

'Wisdom' here seems to refer to Jesus and the message of the cross, not to God controlling everything.  Maybe Jesus was 'predestined' but that's one life, he's the son of or is God, and thus he's not subject to any judgment anyway. 

So how have you connected 'predestination of wisdom' to 'predestination of everything that happens' here?  There's nothing I see at least that is incompatible between Jesus' death being predestined and almost everyone else (maybe not anyone who was necessary to bring about Jesus' death, don't know if God made them do it) having free will, these can logically coexist.

 

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9 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Okay, so since you are a translator I can assume that this is a fairly accurate translation?  Because 'wisdom' to me means in English something way different than 'every decision you make in your life'.  And it seems we just need to look back a chapter to see what kinds of things are being referred to by 'wisdom'

In Judaism, wisdom is often seen as a curse.  In its simplest sense, wisdom is knowing the right thing to do and choosing to do it.  It is said that Solomon was wise, and yet he was denied Heaven for 200 years because he consorted with demons to complete the Temple.  Wisdom helps you grasp at the divine and perhaps see something of God's plan, but a little knowledge is often a dangerous thing.  But then, monotheists much prefer to heap hatred onto people who are smarter than they are, especially when they decry obvious lies as obvious.  Instead they prefer to praise credulous dullards who obediently do as they are told without question, and they call it faith, not cretinism.  There is a certain malicious "wisdom" to it I suppose, as in the priest class are parasitic "wise guys".

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8 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

In its simplest sense, wisdom is knowing the right thing to do and choosing to do it. 

Agreed, that jibes with what is meant by wisdom in normal language.  But it is God's wisdom, not ours, that is mentioned in your Corinthians 'predestination' passage so there still seems to be a distance from what this verse says to the idea that our choices are all predetermined.

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22 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, what a pillar of wisdom you are, "Doctor". Finally, through your reams of pontifications you reach the logical conclusion i.e. God, whatever that may be, is not our great sugar daddy in the sky. 

On that we can agree. I think it is pretty clear that God is evil and nobody's sugar daddy.

22 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I don't pretend to know anything about God and certainly don't place any certainty on what some goatherd wrote, thousands of years go.

The fascinating thing about goatherds is that they were almost never literate.  Scripture was compiled exclusively by the priest class.

22 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I can debate a religion within the framework of a Faiths tenets, scriptures and beliefs.

Really?  The need to state this makes you seem uncertain.

22 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's quite clear that God gave Adam and Eve free will and of their own free will they chose disobedience.

Very well then, if it is so clear cut, quote the scripture where it says that God gave Adam and Eve Free Will.  That should be easy.  If you can't do that, perhaps it isn't so clear at all.

22 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

 If the Abrahamic God knows all things, he would have to exist outside the constraints of linear time. 

That is one of a plethora of interpretations of what is in the scripture, but let's not leap to conclusions about claiming to know the workings of the divine.  That is called hubris and is a terrible sin which the gods collectively punish with extreme vindictiveness.

22 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

 So, past, present and future are all one to him.

If that is the case, it certainly doesn't do much for your Free Will argument.

22 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Jewish creation myths are quite entertaining fairy tales, but I prefer Grimms. 

Well, provided you don't pretend to be a Jew or a Christian, then there should be no problems.  You do know that pretty much every Christian denomination regards people who don't rely on scriptural sources for their ideas about the Christian religion as being blaspheming heretics I take it? 

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Just now, Liquid Gardens said:

Agreed, that jibes with what is meant by wisdom in normal language.  But it is God's wisdom, not ours, that is mentioned in your Corinthians 'predestination' passage so there still seems to be a distance from what this verse says to the idea that our choices are all predetermined.

Not really.  The wise are sometimes gifted with a measure of divine foresight, and if they get enough, the can reliably prophecy.  Prophecy would be impossible without predestination. QED.

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4 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

On that we can agree. I think it is pretty clear that God is evil and nobody's sugar daddy.

The fascinating thing about goatherds is that they were almost never literate.  Scripture was compiled exclusively by the priest class.

Really?  The need to state this makes you seem uncertain.

Very well then, if it is so clear cut, quote the scripture where it says that God gave Adam and Eve Free Will.  That should be easy.  If you can't do that, perhaps it isn't so clear at all.

That is one of a plethora of interpretations of what is in the scripture, but let's not leap to conclusions about claiming to know the workings of the divine.  That is called hubris and is a terrible sin which the gods collectively punish with extreme vindictiveness.

If that is the case, it certainly doesn't do much for your Free Will argument.

Well, provided you don't pretend to be a Jew or a Christian, then there should be no problems.  You do know that pretty much every Christian denomination regards people who don't rely on scriptural sources for their ideas about the Christian religion as being blaspheming heretics I take it? 

Who gives a sh!t? The fascinating thing about pompous A-holes on the internet, DOCTOR, is watching them rattle around, imprisoned by that cell of lies they've created for themselves. You do realize that if you are wrong about religion, you're damned to Hell, right?

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5 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Who gives a sh!t? The fascinating thing about pompous A-holes on the internet, DOCTOR, is watching them rattle around, imprisoned by that cell of lies they've created for themselves. You do realize that if you are wrong about religion, you're damned to Hell, right?

That is your opinion and you are welcome to choke on it.  For my part, I think it is pretty clear that monotheism is bunkum based on the repeated contradictions and errors in the scriptures.  It is all clearly made up by a parasitic priest class for the purpose of exploiting the gullible as far as I am concerned.  

If you want an example of contradictions:

Jesus says: "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

Later Jesus says "You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

and let us not forget David's words "the fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1

And they can't all be right.  Having spent years with scripture in the "Holy" land, I don't see much that is "holy" going on, and I generally find that the most unforgiving and hate filled people are the strictest Christians and the most orthodox Jews.  Don't get me started on the morass of scum that is Islam.  If God's morality is measured by the quality of his worshippers then Hell will be a paradise.

To quote Al Capone:

th-1870899384.jpg.420f1e140ef82071e0b53dcd25740f65.jpg

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1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

Prophecy would be impossible without predestination. QED.

Not necessarily, I don't think you've answered my questions about how time works with God.

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

The wise are sometimes gifted with a measure of divine foresight, and if they get enough, the can reliably prophecy. 

Sometimes? 'A measure' and 'enough'?  I thought we were talking about everything being predestined. 

If this is the most direct passage then I think I'm comfortable saying that the Bible doesn't say that everything everyone does is predestined.  It's at best an inference, and we already have a lot of theologians with mutually exclusive ideas about those.

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36 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

That is your opinion and you are welcome to choke on it.  For my part, I think it is pretty clear that monotheism is bunkum based on the repeated contradictions and errors in the scriptures.  It is all clearly made up by a parasitic priest class for the purpose of exploiting the gullible as far as I am concerned.  

If you want an example of contradictions:

Jesus says: "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

Later Jesus says "You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

and let us not forget David's words "the fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1

And they can't all be right.  Having spent years with scripture in the "Holy" land, I don't see much that is "holy" going on, and I generally find that the most unforgiving and hate filled people are the strictest Christians and the most orthodox Jews.  Don't get me started on the morass of scum that is Islam.  If God's morality is measured by the quality of his worshippers then Hell will be a paradise.

To quote Al Capone:

th-1870899384.jpg.420f1e140ef82071e0b53dcd25740f65.jpg

 

You're welcome to go there, Professor, I don't believe in the place myself. At the most I'm a deist, at the least I believe in a directed universe, claiming no special knowledge thereof. So, I don't believe in the infallibility of the holy scriptures, which are such a hot mess, parsing the meaning of a single, poorly translated word is ludicrous in the extreme. Jesus says nothing in the Bible, someone else wrote his lines and put them in his mouth. They seem to have had their own agenda.

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1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

In times of trouble people turn to faith, in hopes that things will get better. 

That is faith without action, which is useless.  In times of trouble some people knuckle under and and act in ways to make changes so that things will get better.   Though, as Marvel movies shows us, a dellusional approach to a perceived problem will not make anything better.   :lol:

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