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Heaven


8th_wall

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On 11/14/2023 at 3:18 PM, joc said:

The Patient said, Doctor, it hurts when I do this.  And the Doctor said, Well don't do that! 

Why stare down the void of your life?  

A girl once wrote something in my High School Year Book.   Very simple and to the point she wrote,  Remember the Good, Forget the Bad ~ Teresa White.

 

It's natural to head away from pain however this advice is incorrect.  By experiencing it only once we find, thanks to you, the ownership is yours due to providing the antithesis to mean the synthesis can be produced but more importantly the prognosis belongs to you as I can see clearly with the antithesis provided instead of the thesis.

It is best to experience the pain as fully and deeply as possible in order to ground it in reality as deeply as possible.  Then simply so some growth.  1 year one will be grown, I recollect from Jordan sharing this knowledge from psychology as a psychologist who might not be at the forefront any longer so this news comes very very late.  1 year your growth will be underperforming.  But there is growth.  Three years you'll have done about as much growth as you suspect, assuming that one has a positive return on investment.  In five years one will be blown away so much so that the gravity of the **** can be experienced in full and yet one is completely objective to it.  Objectivity is the goal, which will occur in 3 years now once one knows this and in 5 years it literally can not be imagined by you now how much growth would have been done.  I don't feed into it.  I've been meditating for 8 years.  I accept it with the knowledge that all it takes is for my mood to shift for the same problem to be there yet it not being something that paralyses me.

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7 minutes ago, 8th_wall said:

It's natural to head away from pain however this advice is incorrect.  By experiencing it only once we find, thanks to you, the ownership is yours due to providing the antithesis to mean the synthesis can be produced but more importantly the prognosis belongs to you as I can see clearly with the antithesis provided instead of the thesis.

It is best to experience the pain as fully and deeply as possible in order to ground it in reality as deeply as possible.  Then simply so some growth.  1 year one will be grown, I recollect from Jordan sharing this knowledge from psychology as a psychologist who might not be at the forefront any longer so this news comes very very late.  1 year your growth will be underperforming.  But there is growth.  Three years you'll have done about as much growth as you suspect, assuming that one has a positive return on investment.  In five years one will be blown away so much so that the gravity of the **** can be experienced in full and yet one is completely objective to it.  Objectivity is the goal, which will occur in 3 years now once one knows this and in 5 years it literally can not be imagined by you now how much growth would have been done.  I don't feed into it.  I've been meditating for 8 years.  I accept it with the knowledge that all it takes is for my mood to shift for the same problem to be there yet it not being something that paralyses me.

I don't really agree with any of that.  Because, I know how the subconscious mind works.  The subconscious mind doesn't know, doesn't care what or how you think. It's main purpose, as far as conscious thought goes, is to validate the conscious thought. It does this by seeking and finding memory that supports whatever the conscious thought is.  

So, the most likely consequence of thinking about the negatives of one's life is depression.

I think ultimately one has to identify the negatives and be honest with one's own self. Contemplation on how to overcome one's own personal revelations in a positive way therefore is essential to positive growth. 

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14 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You're welcome to go there, Professor, I don't believe in the place myself. At the most I'm a deist, at the least I believe in a directed universe, claiming no special knowledge thereof. So, I don't believe in the infallibility of the holy scriptures, which are such a hot mess, parsing the meaning of a single, poorly translated word is ludicrous in the extreme. Jesus says nothing in the Bible, someone else wrote his lines and put them in his mouth. They seem to have had their own agenda.

So, as a self-identified Deist, are you a Jesus believer at all? 

If not, why did you get hot under the collar about my discussion of Adam and Eve?

I also notice that you haven't responded to my request for you to show me in scripture where it is said that Adam and Eve are given Free Will.

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15 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Not necessarily, I don't think you've answered my questions about how time works with God.

No, prophecy IS impossible without predestination.  Consider...  If Free Will exists, then God cannot predict what humans will do.  That would make prophecy impossible.  Prophecy REQUIRES predestination to operate.  Furthermore, Predestination is mentioned in the Bible and Free Will never is.  As I said before, QED.  I don't need to address your misconceptions, you need to show me how my points are wrong.

I would add that Free Will only becomes important because of the Question of Evil, but let's face facts, it's a bad answer there too.  I mean, Free Will serves no theological function other than to justify people going to Hell.  On the other hand, to send people to eternal punishment for finite crimes is implicitly unjust, and thus unbecoming of a true God of Good, so it must be wrong.  Furthermore God himself declares he is the author of Good and Evil.  Now, we know God created Satan, and we know God can see everything before it happens, so he must have known in advance about Satan's fall, and meant for it to happen.  Thus we should jettison the entire Free Will line, and ask instead why an allegedly Good God has created Evil.

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6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I don't need to address your misconceptions, you need to show me how my points are wrong.

That might be possible if you would respond to my comments and questions and not ignore them, and you seem bright enough to understand where the burden of proof is; you need to show me how your points are correct but you just seem to be repeating yourself.  My position is not that your point is absolutely wrong, it's that it is not well founded.  I just responded to you about the 'predestination' mentioned in the Bible and how your Corinthians example does not refer to the actions that people take and refers to Jesus.  An argument based on merely that a word is merely mentioned in the bible is pretty weak and is self-defeating to your argument that we don't have free will, which is also apparently never mentioned.  Why don't you answer what the purpose of the Commandments is if no one can choose or freely will themselves to follow them?  

6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Prophecy REQUIRES predestination to operate. 

I don't know how you cannot see that this requires massive assumptions on your part about how God interfaces and interacts with 'time', and what it even means to him, even though I've mentioned it multiple times.  The key prefix upon which your argument rests is 'pre'.  How do you know that God doesn't know what's going to happen in our future (not necessarily his) because from his perspective it has already occurred, which I believe I now have asked several times, why can't this be the situation?  If you think that God, the creator of time, is locked into our time then tell me why and what date and time you think it is in heaven?  If for some reason you think it is a certain point in time in heaven, are you then saying that God can't time travel?  I realize that the Bible implies that there was a 'before' with God but of course that is written from a human perspective because time is so fundamental, you don't seem to be capable of not using time words in relation to God which is understandable, I find it difficult too.  You keep referring to God as the 'almighty' when it's convenient for your arguments and then disregard that concept when it's not. 

The problem of evil and God's supposed omnibenevolence are separate questions.

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From an outside of time perspective (I'm speculating) our time would possibly look like an infinite tree root. Where every possible, probably, unlikely, likely outcome all exist. Utter chaos. Every choice would solidify to the next choice. 

Perhaps just a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey whimey stuff.

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8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

So, as a self-identified Deist, are you a Jesus believer at all? 

If not, why did you get hot under the collar about my discussion of Adam and Eve?

I also notice that you haven't responded to my request for you to show me in scripture where it is said that Adam and Eve are given Free Will.

Hot under the collar !?!??! Over a silly fool on the internet and his Doctorate of Divinity he bought off some website!!!?!?!? I'm not angry, I think you're funny as hell but not very intelligent, you silly sunuvabich! It is hilarious how you base your argument on parsing a single word and ignore everything else. It's a lousy debating strategy and an indicator of mediocre intellect. So, please, make me laugh some more!  🤣😅😂

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On 11/26/2023 at 11:26 PM, Sojo said:

@AlchopwnHi Al,

I know you have a lot of expertise and understanding of languages and theologies, but I do have one question that I don't quite understand yet.

How are you able to equate the ability to pre-know what is going to happen (or even the ability to set up something that you know will produce certain results), with actually being the controlling factor in any and all decisions made by any and all biological mind beings?

Hi Sojo, 

             This does seem to be a concept that theists have trouble with, so allow me to explain.  I don't know if you have followed my other posts, so I may be repeating myself, but I'll try not to.

Let's start with the "Omnis".  God is (allegedly) omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, and perfect, and he has a a perfect plan.

Let's talk about Omnipresence...

This means that God is in every subatomic particle in your being, and in the spaces in between those particles.  You are suffused with God.  The Universe is suffused with God.  Now let's get to the important part.  Every electron, atom and subatomic particle in your brain is therefore suffused with God.  All the things that make up your physical and spiritual reality are suffused with God.  Every neuron in your head controlling your actions is suffused with God, and without God's say-so they cannot activate.  Every part of your physical memory that informs your actions is similarly suffused with God.  And unequivocally, scripture tells us that your soul too is the special creation of God.  I ask you, what part of you is God therefore NOT controlling 24/7 for your whole life?  Isn't Free Will then the most ludicrous hubris?

It is important to remember that the Bible mentions Predestination by name, and says that God knows your fate before you are even born.  The Bible however NEVER mentions Free Will even once.

Now let's talk about Omniscience...

God knows everything.  Every movement of every subatomic particle in the unthinkably huge numbers of celestial bodies that combine to form  the billions of galaxies of the universe are all known to God, all day every day.  God sees the micro and the macro scale as one continuous whole creation, which he also suffuses with his being, because he is Omnipresent.  Now, on top of that, God actually knows the beginning and the end of all Time.  God knows exactly what will happen next.  Now on top of this, God MADE everything, and he made it to be Predestined, or he could not have a Perfect Plan.

So, to recap, God made the entire universe, and he became one with every particle and spatial coordinate in the entire universe, and he knows the future before it happens.  So, God made you, is part of every particle of your being, and chose your entire life's trajectory before you were ever born.  There is no room in any of this for Free Will.  Free Will is therefore an illusion.

Now to further explain, consider that Chaos Theory (a part of Physics) has proven that any physical system, if understood to enough decimal places, becomes completely predictable. 

As am example of this, there is a machine that is used to smash Coke bottles to produce single micron edged scalpel blades.  It is an imperfect human creation, but you load the bottle in, label upside, and pull a lever, and the bottle is launched into the air, and it falls to the floor and smashes.  There is a circle painted on that floor, and inside that circle, the single micron splinter of the bottle lies, every single time.  Now this is a device of simple welded pipes, and nowhere near as complex as a computer, yet we have stripped all the randomness out of the system.  If we can do this, how much easier is it for God? 

God made us.  God knew us before we were born.  God chose the trajectory of our lives before we were born.  God suffuses every particle and space in out being.  God knows the outcome of our lives and his judgement of us before we are born.  God's control of us is absolute.  Far worse than any mere human dictator and his petty police state.  There is no room for Free Will.  God's control of our lives is absolute and unavoidable.  We have no meaningful choices to make.  Not one.  Every sin we commit is also God's doing.  How can it be otherwise? There is nothing random, or unknown, or uncontrolled in the universe where an almighty God holds sway.  God has us living in an Orwellian Hell.  Or is it an Orwellian Heaven?  I suppose that depends on whether you love the Party and Big Brother, or whether you are a traitor?

Furthermore, Prophecy proves that Predestination is true, as if the entire system weren't 100% predictable, Prophecy could be false, and that would mean God wasn't a Perfect Being with a Perfect plan.  It would mean that God wasn't Omnipotent or Omniscient.  There is no room for Free Will.

So yo answer your question Sojo, it was the act of our creation by God that chose our fate, and it was then that God unequivocally intervened in our lives and controlled all of the decisions that we would ever make.   Even if he never interfered in our lives again, this act and its foreknowledge was enough to control us more completely than the smashing coke bottle.  Chaos theory also tells us that if you understand the start conditions of a physical system that you know the outcome.  God made the universe with these rules, why wouldn't they apply to humans?

Simply out, Christian Theology has bumped up against the Problem of Evil, and rather than admitting what God says about himself, namely "I am the Author of Good and Evil", the theologists have hit on the idea that the only way to explain Evil is by inventing and inserting the concept of Free Will into their theological explanation.  Well it doesn't work.  Therefore if anyone wants to break fresh ground theologically, this is a fine opportunity.  Free Will is provably false, so what is the REAL explanation for Evil?  Get at it.

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7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

what part of you is God therefore NOT controlling 24/7 for your whole life?

My Will.

And as for the rest, I'm sure that's how it seems to you. It used to seem that way to me once. I just happen to believe that I really am responsible for my voluntary actions that I choose to do, and people really do get to decide what kind of person they want to be all on their own as they live and learn.

I simply see evil as being something that was always understood to be inevitable "from the beginning", and the method for dealing with it has also been established "from the beginning".

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I truly do appreciate it.

Regards,

Sojo

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22 hours ago, Sojo said:

My Will.

And as for the rest, I'm sure that's how it seems to you. It used to seem that way to me once. I just happen to believe that I really am responsible for my voluntary actions that I choose to do, and people really do get to decide what kind of person they want to be all on their own as they live and learn.

I simply see evil as being something that was always understood to be inevitable "from the beginning", and the method for dealing with it has also been established "from the beginning".

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I truly do appreciate it.

Regards,

Sojo

Your will is a product of your material being.  We can fire up an MRI and see the parts of your brain activated when you exercise your will.  Each atom is part of an omnipresent God.  Each atom was put in place before your birth by an almighty and all-knowing God.  Your destiny was decided back then.  You have no free will.  You have the illusion of will, and the illusion of Free Will.  None of your actions is voluntary if God is real.  They are quite possibly not voluntary even if God isn't real, given that the universe seems to be deterministic.

As for the Problem of Evil, my take is something quite different.  If God created Evil, he must contain evil.  Therefore perhaps the Universe is a form of cleansing ritual wherein God removes the evil from himself into the gross material universe, like a form of filter.  Now, obviously one must contain a small amount of Evil in order to identify evil when you encounter it, but if there is too much, it must be removed.  So that's my stab at amateur theology.

Edited by Alchopwn
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On 11/29/2023 at 12:39 AM, XenoFish said:

From an outside of time perspective (I'm speculating) our time would possibly look like an infinite tree root. Where every possible, probably, unlikely, likely outcome all exist. Utter chaos. Every choice would solidify to the next choice. 

Perhaps just a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey whimey stuff.

I'm struggling with the conception that general relativity and quantum theory are deterministic entities.

I'm struggling now to see that the goal of physics isn't to not comprehend what someone or somebody might propose but to simplify it to the simplest of forms, and no simpler.  I am presently set to believe that a straight line is the simplest of forms as a super charged cluster is flung out of the end of a rail fun driving it's acceleration at the speed of light where the electromagnetic wave surrounding the interior is the driving force along which a conductor of incredible hardness is flung out of causing a straight line.  But this is just a vector property and the thinking at the cutting edge of physics seems to suggest that with an extra dimension we need not think of the state vector.  There are 10 events of measurable measure all relative excepting acceleration as we can feel acceleration yet can not measure it wtf.  Position time velocity acceleration Snap crackle pop lock drop and roll idk.

Idk.  In my meditation I'm thinking of the virtual as a dimension.  It doesn't exist yet we can experience it incorrectly or correctly.  My shadow is in the mirror.  Idk.

What do I have to say about Heaven?  It, unlike Hell, can not be imagined.  The best cases we have for it fall short of its magnificence.  We have some hints of it on Earth.  More to say a bit later.

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On 11/28/2023 at 11:17 PM, Alchopwn said:

So, to recap, God made the entire universe, and he became one with every particle and spatial coordinate in the entire universe, and he knows the future before it happens.  So, God made you, is part of every particle of your being, and chose your entire life's trajectory before you were ever born.  There is no room in any of this for Free Will.  Free Will is therefore an illusion.

The universe is composed, at it's core...of nothing but energy.  Therefore, energy created the universe.  If energy created the universe, then, where did that energy come from?  

So, one can say that 'energy' has always existed.  There is no explanation for that.  None.  Fragmenting this energy into a Deity is just how human minds work.  In essence, all that exists is energy.  

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22 hours ago, joc said:

So, one can say that 'energy' has always existed.  There is no explanation for that.  None.  

Cosmologists would beg to differ.

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1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:
On 12/1/2023 at 7:32 AM, joc said:

So, one can say that 'energy' has always existed.  There is no explanation for that.  None.  

Cosmologists would beg to differ.

In what way would  cosmologists beg to differ? 

 

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18 hours ago, joc said:

In what way would  cosmologists beg to differ? 

 

The notion that energy has no source is covered quite well by these physicists.  It is often the central part of their work.

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5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

The notion that energy has no source is covered quite well by these physicists.  It is often the central part of their work.

I thought you were meaning they would differ with the idea that energy has always been.  You are taking issue with my statement There is no explanation for that.

Correct?

 

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Just going to be honest here. It is really boring the god / no god argument. If person wishes to believe in such a thing they will. If they choose to believe in a heaven or hell they will. Not a single person on this forum will change their mind. Only they can choose to do that. 

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21 minutes ago, joc said:

I thought you were meaning they would differ with the idea that energy has always been.  You are taking issue with my statement There is no explanation for that.

Correct?

Less myself is taking issue with it than the cosmologists I have read.  I am no physicist.

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42 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Less myself is taking issue with it than the cosmologists I have read.  I am no physicist.

   What I read from some physicist paper is that energy seems to just pop up in the quantum field out of nowhere.  But I also read: E = mc2, equation in...Einstein's theory of special relativity that expresses the fact that mass and energy are the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. link

In the equation, E = m c2, E stands for energy, m stands for an object's mass, and c2 represents the speed of light ( 186,000 miles per second ) multiplied by itself. Think of mass as simply the quantity of matter present. link

What I am not seeing is an explanation of how energy pops up out of the quantum field.  The only reason I can think of is that there is something else 'outside' of the Quantum Field....?

 

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Another 'out there' kind of thought is simulation...way too wacked out for most to even think about probably...but...

It would answer the question of where energy comes from.  That the entire universe is a 3D imagery  (computers we couldn't even possibly imagine) created by some AI something that somehow got frozen into a loop...or this could be the very first run of the show.  The Big Bang happened when the Play Button was pushed.  An old idea,  but still interesting.  Books written and movies made about the idea. 

Within the context of the  program, our reality is relative to the size of the 3d imaging which seems infinite, but in that reality isn't.  We don't know when the loop finishes and the big bang starts from the beginning...our time understanding is relative to our experiences within the loop.  The entire 3d loop of our universe could be relooping every 2 hours or every 2 trillion years.  We are programmed to be 'alive' which is an AI twist on reality where the 'objects' chosen to be 'alive' have self sensory.  

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