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Trump to announce 2024 run


the13bats

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19 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

First point. Your terminology betrays your poor sources. Mega phara or big pharma or pr whatever you want to call them are without doubt at the leading edge of technology. Yes, you would indeed trust them over that liar Trump or the inexperienced conspiracy laden GOP. 

Again, following a political trail on a medical issue is a fools errand. 

Second point.

No trials? BS. 199 candidates in clinical development plus 180 vaccine candidates in clinical trials plus 50 vaccine candidates in phase iii clinical trials and 11 candidates in phase four post licensure surveillance says your wrong 

Google the numbers. 

And before that, research on it actually began in the early 1990s, and two diseases that are very close to COVID—SARS in 2003, and MERS helped bring the mRNA vaccine development to present day use.

No. You're not using the term correctly. Not even close. You have perpetuated political misinformation. 

Overlapping. 

Explain exactly where the issue lies here. Why do you maintain there is reason for concern? It's a well known technology. Although they were overlapping, not in parallel, explain the advantages of putting the tests in series.

No. It's a myth. And created both out of ignorance and political handballing. 

MYTH: The COVID vaccines were not rigorously tested, which is why they have only emergency authorization approval and not full Food and Drug Administration approval. (Update: Pfizer’s vaccine received full FDA approval on August 19)

FACT: “Vaccine developers didn’t skip any testing steps, but conducted some of the steps on an overlapping schedule to gather data faster.”—Johns Hopkins Medicine

Assoumou: This is the most common question I get asked. I think there is a perception that things moved very fast, but we want to underscore that the technology being used now was being studied for a decade. The main difference between emergency use versus full FDA approval is that you need two months of monitoring rather than six months. When you look at the history of vaccines, if patients were to develop side effects, these occurred within two months. We are now over six months into our experience with these vaccines. We have not seen anything that would make us believe that the risks outweigh the benefits. And vaccines have saved so many lives.

Hamer: The development was more rapid than many other vaccines. But it used the same process of phase one and phase two trials following appropriate safety measures. Stage three trials were large-scale trials done rigorously with very clear outcome definitions. The safety measures and approaches taken are standard for clinical trials. They just did it more rapidly than usual. The full process review is ongoing and we are already hearing that Pfizer will have full FDA authorization by September and Moderna soon after.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/myths-vs-facts-covid-19-vaccine/

Then why don't you take your time to read them properly and understand why they were not rushed, where an ignorant layman led by political narratives might think otherwise. That is what the articles try to achieve is it not? You don't know what phase is alleged rushed do you? You don't really know if it was paperwork or specific tests that were allegedly rushed so you? You're regurgitating a narrative. 

There's a reason that the professionals say it wasn't rushed. There's also a reason politicians are saying it was. The facts are there is over a decade of work behind the vaccine and four phases of trials. 

Because the information that illustrates no corners were cut come from the medical field.

Again, you keep involving politics. It's where you go wrong here. It doesn't matter what Biden or Trump say anymore than it matters what that raving loon RFK says. It's not their field.

No. Red tape is not testing. It's not technically involved. It has no bearing on medical applications. It's a guideline to follow. People's general ignorance of mRNA technology is the only hurdle. 

Yes. Would you let people freeze because of some bylaw that can't fit the current situation? If trials were completed why would you make people suffer. 

Silenced my backside. There's hundreds of links to that claim rendering the claim ineffective.

This is from 2020

Earlier, Republican U.S. Representative Brad Wenstrup, a physician and Trump supporter, dismissed those concerns in a call with reporters, saying the U.S. Food and Drug Administration would ensure any new vaccine was safe.

"We believe the FDA is not going to approve something that isn’t safe and effective," Wenstrup said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2671R8/

A trump supporter flip flipped is what actually happened. 

His actual complaint is that it would have pushed the Biden administration to cut corners, inadvertently admitting that is what is currently the situation he wished to challenge. Then he is saying that it was mandated too quickly to military. For what? Is he saying it's a money making exercise? Because we both know that's a dumb angle. The money was coming no matter what. The companies involved knew they faced a global situation and the return would be global. 

Again. Politicians know nothing about vaccine testing is making. You might as well quote a sanitation worker. 

And yet their superiors, the most experienced, were in unison with the majority of the profession.

And that was the case. The majority of the medical profession, GPs to brain surgeons agreed it was the best option. People in the medical profession who wondered only let themselves down. They had more opportunity than you or I to get things from a horses mouth. Ask them why didn't they do that instead of fear mongering. If be interested in what an answer is. 

Breakaway groups like the frontline doctors took a political stance and spread doubt and misinformation. Every single one of them should now have their licences removed for the harm they caused. I see Simone Gold only got sixty days jail. She should have been charged with multiple counts of manslaughter for every person she and her group of liars led to their death. 

Yeah, we've been over this in the lab leak BS. Thank your idiot president Trump. His Chyna virus crap really p***ed off xi. Quite frankly it's amazing the orange idiot didn't start a war with his dumb mouth. Quite frankly it could have been much worse. 

I got some interesting stories too. 

Doesn't make them true. I'm not one to place importance on gossip. 

Still apples and oranges 

Nobody in government fits in a lab anymore than a doctor fits in the presidents chair.

Two completely different things. 

We have established that you wouldn't see a politician about a medical issue. Of course not, you're not silly, so what exactly is the point of continually returning to what politicians say about the vaccine? Can you name any who actually worked on it? 

Well you should switch doctors because that's not good advice. Feel free to tell him I said so. My doctor is a very polite fellow and would say his advice isn't sound. 

It's not just you. It's everyone around you too. Another place people go wrong with vaccine fear. 

A poor choice and a stupid one 

New Zealand is living proof. Lowest death count per capita. Lowest infection rates. Best results in the world. Because their government had a set and did what needed to be done. So many people in the states means many wayward crazies as well. Your government buckled and caved under that pressure. It's a weak move. Something to be ashamed, not proud of. People died because your leaders were weak. 

Yes. My bad I got carried away. Sorry about that. 

You know it was the prime measure for the 1918 Spanish flu? And it worked? And that event has been documented extensively? 

It's been in practice since mediaeval times. It's how STDs, the black plague and other major pandemics were handled. Sailors in the 14th century sat in quarantine.

History in a Crisis — Lessons for Covid-19

 

Without too much trouble, here is one such link.

 

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0611071104

Yet it's politicians questioning the testing process while doctors are saying they are wrong. 

I will always trust my chief medical officer over your politicians. Remember this is a global pandemic. We all had a dog in this race, yours was Pfizer, ours Astra Zenica. 

This is mRNA technology. It's not a bunch of witches boiling bane and bats wings. The science is actually very interesting. If you do understand it, what aspect of the vaccine do you feel could offer long term effects knowing how the vaccine targets the virus and lifespan of the vaccine in your body? 

They were!!!

That's what anti vaxers were calling hidden vaccine side effects!! What you have listed comprised what conspiracy theory clowns were trying to say was a death sentence over two years ago! What was it? 112 side effects listed publically as possible adverse reactions I think.

There's plenty of threads on it right here. 

Testing was thorough. There's no good reason at all to think one will be crippled in years to come. That's a actually ludicrous if you know anything about how the vaccine works 

Four phases of trials were completed. What are you saying was actually limited? 

It's reckless and helps nobody to fear monger ignorance either. That accomplishes less than nothing as it sets a path backwards. 

If one doesn't know, either learn it or shut it I reckon. 

I didn't set out to prove anything. You are the one talking about hypothetical changing social landscapes. I'm just chiming in. Considering current trends, big families aren't going out but religion is. It's as likely there won't be a tipping point to set religion back into the positive as opposed to the negative trend being set. Big families will continue if religion doesn't. That will set the trend into more leaving religion as current trends indicate. I think there would have to be some defining event, like that portrayed in three body problem to make religion attractive enough to revitalise numbers and set the trend back to positive. 

Very, very well said,

What was shoddy to say the least was BOMs incompetent response to covid.

It's weird to me, tRump subjects seem to feel the need to go full blow rabbit hole on anti vaccine yet their lord and master vaxxed as did many of them, well the ones who didn't die taking Trump's advice.

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2 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Very, very well said,

What was shoddy to say the least was BOMs incompetent response to covid.

It's weird to me, tRump subjects seem to feel the need to go full blow rabbit hole on anti vaccine yet their lord and master vaxxed as did many of them, well the ones who didn't die taking Trump's advice.

Well dc tends to be somewhat pragmatic so I'll be interested in his reply. One of the few intelligent people who will discuss both sides of the coin. We argued the lab leak quite strongly for some time before reaching a common ground. But we got there. 

I don't understand how people who even would vote for Trump out of a not Biden vote could look the other way on so many poor instances of leadership that dead set made the US look foolish. He violates every aspect of decency and make America a laughing stock. He makes Christians look like very poor subjects of faith as they ignore the basic decency he has violated. Hilarious that doccy kept asking for ten commandments to be posted in schools, than says how wonderful Trump is for violating them. Any other person that would hire a porn star while their wife is home in bed with a newborn wouldn't be embraced by decent people and surely isn't close to having the basic values faith purports to require. It's just another farce. Nothing new to religion I suppose. And people wonder why it's in decline. Perhaps it's time religion was exposed for the farce it is. Anything is ok if they think there's a buck in it. Trump's a prime example of that. Who cares what he does when he is making unreasonable promises of low prices to look forward to. Their lord be in the hip pocket. Christians. LoL. Yeah sure. Churches should start paying tax. They don't adhere to the values they claim to. Fraud. 

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I find it interesting that even though Trump is in court every single morning it makes it possible for him to give at least 2-3 press conferences each day before, at break and after the trials to all the major media outlets who gather there and are more than willing to report on them and provide the national air time.

 

🤔

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I'm seeing reasons tRump will win 2024 I don't want to give away spoilers but yeah, I said it right here folks

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On 4/25/2024 at 3:58 AM, DieChecker said:

And so youd simply trust the MegaPharma people? No trials needed? 

Studies in parallel, where with 99% of these they are done in series?

Thats not a myth, it is being rushed. Rushing leads to shoddy work. And people getting hurt unnecessarily.

I see many links online saying the vaccines were "not rushed", only "hurried", and each one explains how everything was done in record time, with no corners cut, except the corners which were cut. With producers even producing before approval. No sir, no corners cut here... Lots of "apologist" sites if you ask me. Nitpicking over wording. While admitting things were hurried. By the researchers, the corporations, and the government.

And how would i know that to be true? Because the fellows who created it said so?? Because the Biden Administration said so?

If the paperwork was rushed, wouldnt that mean problems could have been missed?

If I'm building a nuclear reactor, do we rush the paperwork, even if the construction was completed on time?

I did find this...

https://oversight.house.gov/release/wenstrup-investigates-fdas-rushed-approval-of-the-covid-19-vaccine/

Huh? So a Director of the approving government body raised doubts, and was silenced. And than the Biden Administration announced the shots were required the day after the "rushed" approval. Huh?

That may be so, and i know hospitals here varied from 100% vax, to somewhat less so. Point is that medical professionals expressed doubt, and in the initial issuing of the vaccines, it was not uncommon, and not uncalled for.

And yet after that initial three weeks of open sharing, China locked down, and has been so ever since. People were disappeared for sharing. Labs were shuttered. 

Its true Covid sequencing was done by many afterward, but the initial data from China has many interesting stories revolving around it.

If the question is did government involvement speed up Covid vaccine deployment. Than the answer is yes. Extra funding. Extra eyes on the problem. It 100% mattered.

I saw my doctor, and he had said the choice was mine. That likely I'd be fine. And then after getting it, he said the next year, after testing my antibodies, again, that i should be fine.

The government should not, and now (in USA) can not, require/force people to take a vaccine against their will.

Funny, but i was talking distancing. Now you're bringing up masks?

Distancing and masks are two, related, but distinct, issues. I was talking distancing. 

There probably are studies showing distancing has a positive effect, but i would challenge you to find one from before the 6 foot standard was announced. The article stated studies had been done, but not to an equivalent airborne virus.

And yet medical rigor requires issues be looked into. History is full of vaccines and medicines, that were considered safe, but then showed long term effects later.

Regardless, my point remains testing was limited and quick. If testing had been thorough, most of the questions these research studies are looking at would be known.

Not to say the vaccines shouldn't have been made available, but that it isnt crazy to question them, and to even put off getting them, if one is young, and/or healthy.

Possibly. But if big families goes from (numbers just for arguement sake) 95% religious people, to 92% religious people, have you really proven any thing? Pointed out a slight trend doesnt speak to the greater population.

How do you blame Biden for the vaccine?

It was Trump and Operation Warp Speed that delivered it.

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51 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

How do you blame Biden for the vaccine?

It was Trump and Operation Warp Speed that delivered it.

Youre right. It was Trump. Doesnt change the fact they were rushed... err... i mean "hurried".

I blame Biden for his stupid Vaccine Mandate. Which he, himself, said was Unconstitutional, but he signed it anyway.

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12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Youre right. It was Trump. Doesnt change the fact they were rushed... err... i mean "hurried".

I blame Biden for his stupid Vaccine Mandate. Which he, himself, said was Unconstitutional, but he signed it anyway.

Hmmm... I wonder why Trump called the operation "Warp Speed".

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Posted (edited)
On 4/25/2024 at 1:05 AM, psyche101 said:

First point. Your terminology betrays your poor sources. Mega phara or big pharma or pr whatever you want to call them are without doubt at the leading edge of technology. Yes, you would indeed trust them over that liar Trump or the inexperienced conspiracy laden GOP. 

The leading edge doesnt mean Not Greedy, or Public Servant. Theyre in it for money. The leaders in the industry are legend in how much they charge people who have no choice.

Make no mistake, while the physicians, and scientists, worked their hearts out. Executives were plotting how to milk the government, and then everyone else.

Big Pharma isnt the average persons friend.

Quote

Second point.

No trials? BS. 199 candidates in clinical development plus 180 vaccine candidates in clinical trials plus 50 vaccine candidates in phase iii clinical trials and 11 candidates in phase four post licensure surveillance says your wrong 

Google the numbers. 

Yet Phase Three usually numbers in the thousands. 

FDA... says a minimum of 300. You just said 50.

Rushed...

Corners Cut...

Quote

And before that, research on it actually began in the early 1990s, and two diseases that are very close to COVID—SARS in 2003, and MERS helped bring the mRNA vaccine development to present day use.

True. But it had never actually been done on an industrial scale before.

Quote

Explain exactly where the issue lies here. Why do you maintain there is reason for concern? It's a well known technology. Although they were overlapping, not in parallel, explain the advantages of putting the tests in series.

Theres a reason trials are done 1, 2, 3. And not 1, 1.25, and 1.33. The data for the first trial isn't even collected yet when the third trial is beginning???? You dont see a potential problem with that?

Rushed...

The "well known technology" was used for the first time in humans (mRBA), and/or was the fastest approval ever. 

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2096#:~:text=The vaccine has been used,fastest time in FDA history.

Quote

The vaccine has been used under emergency authorisation since December 2020, with Pfizer applying for full approval on 7 May 2021 and approval being granted in under four months, the fastest time in FDA history.

 

Quote

MYTH: The COVID vaccines were not rigorously tested, which is why they have only emergency authorization approval and not full Food and Drug Administration approval. (Update: Pfizer’s vaccine received full FDA approval on August 19)

FACT: “Vaccine developers didn’t skip any testing steps, but conducted some of the steps on an overlapping schedule to gather data faster.”—

I think thats a selectively worded question, and a selectively worded answer. 

All fact-checkers do this. Word the question to fit the answer they want.

Fact is it DID only get emergency use designation, at first. 

Fact is, no steps were skipped, but what was done isnt even close to what the FDA requires of EVERY other single medicine/drug/vaccine.

Quote

Assoumou: This is the most common question I get asked. I think there is a perception that things moved very fast, but we want to underscore that the technology being used now was being studied for a decade. The main difference between emergency use versus full FDA approval is that you need two months of monitoring rather than six months. When you look at the history of vaccines, if patients were to develop side effects, these occurred within two months. We are now over six months into our experience with these vaccines. 

There you go... Emergency use...

Should have only been used initially on those who were in great danger, till a properly trialed version could be created.

But Biden declared a Mandate on day one of approval.

Quote

Hamer: The development was more rapid than many other vaccines. But it used the same process of phase one and phase two trials following appropriate safety measures. Stage three trials were large-scale trials done rigorously with very clear outcome definitions.

Stage Three trials usually take one to four years. But the covid-19 trials got done in months.

From the FDA who approves all medicines/vaccines/drugs...

https://www.fda.gov/patients/drug-development-process/step-3-clinical-research

Quote

Phase 2:

Study Participants: Up to several hundred people with the disease/condition.

Length of Study: Several months to 2 years

Phase 3:

Study Participants: 300 to 3,000 volunteers who have the disease or condition

Length of Study: 1 to 4 years

But, not "rushed"??? Right...

Quote

Then why don't you take your time to read them properly and understand why they were not rushed, where an ignorant layman led by political narratives might think otherwise. That is what the articles try to achieve is it not?

It is. Theyre obviously trying very hard to influence me. Which automatically make me skeptical. 

Thinking about "who, why, how", and its just like the Big Oil telling you to drive more, and that Climate Change isnt happening..

Everyone trying to comvince us has huge possible ulterior motives.

Quote

There's a reason that the professionals say it wasn't rushed. There's also a reason politicians are saying it was. The facts are there is over a decade of work behind the vaccine and four phases of trials.

And yet ive read these were the fastest major vaccines released EVER. The fastest ever...

Quote

Again, you keep involving politics. It's where you go wrong here. It doesn't matter what Biden or Trump say anymore than it matters what that raving loon RFK says. It's not their field.

Because politics in endemic to nearly everything in medicine and heathcare. Research, funding, approvals... All have government fingers involved.

Quote

No. Red tape is not testing. It's not technically involved. It has no bearing on medical applications. It's a guideline to follow. People's general ignorance of mRNA technology is the only hurdle.

So why do we have the Red Tape? It serves a purpose of Public Health assurance. Guidelines are there for a reason.

Aren't mRNA vaccines brand new?

Quote

Yes. Would you let people freeze because of some bylaw that can't fit the current situation? If trials were completed why would you make people suffer.

I wouldn't. In this thread I said it was great they got them done. And that those in most need of protection, who likely would live only a few more years anyway, should take it.

Quote

"We believe the FDA is not going to approve something that isn’t safe and effective," Wenstrup said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2671R8/

A trump supporter flip flipped is what actually happened. 

So... He initially says there'll be no problems. But than after working on it for a year... Flips and says there was problems.

Seems legit possible to me.

Ill need to read the link.

Quote

And yet their superiors, the most experienced, were in unison with the majority of the profession.

And that was the case. The majority of the medical profession, GPs to brain surgeons agreed it was the best option.

How should i know thats true? Ive read were many higher level medical authorities were skeptical at first. And said, "Show me!". Being skeptical isn't bad. 

Just because the majority think something is correct doesn't make it correct. The majority used to think being gay was a mental illness, for example. The majority think Jesus is up in the clouds...

Quote

Yeah, we've been over this in the lab leak BS. Thank your idiot president Trump. His Chyna virus crap really p***ed off xi. 

Might just be me, but IMHO thats just an excuse. The internal lockdown within China was/is every bit as blunt as the external lockout. 

Quote

We have established that you wouldn't see a politician about a medical issue. Of course not, you're not silly, so what exactly is the point of continually returning to what politicians say about the vaccine? Can you name any who actually worked on it?

Politicians know nothing about most everything. They arent generals, economists, teachers, accountants, or scientists. But they decide a good deal about everything that goes on. Because.... advisors. Who give them advise on Covid, just as with everything else.

The problem isnt politicians, but which politician. Id trust many House Representives to vote on things like aid for Ukraine, and there are some Representives who no one should trust.

Quote

Well you should switch doctors because that's not good advice. Feel free to tell him I said so. My doctor is a very polite fellow and would say his advice isn't sound. 

It's not just you. It's everyone around you too. Another place people go wrong with vaccine fear. 

Which speaks to your base assumption, that people do the research. They go to their medical authority, who tells them theyre within their rights to be suspicious... skeptical. And the people proceed with their lives.

Youd have everyone go to a new doctor till they get one thats says what you want them to say?

Quote

New Zealand is living proof. Lowest death count per capita. Lowest infection rates. 

They locked down and let no one in. That works if youre an island, and have no easily crossed borders.

They forced approaching boats to go away, regardless of their medical states. 

I guess Trump could have prevented all flights in, and quarrinteened entire towns and airports. He started a limited form of travel ban, but Democrat congress, and Fasci, said there was no need. Facsi who was the world leading authority. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/

Quote

Feb 17, 2020

Fauci doesn't want people to worry about coronavirus, the danger of which is "just minuscule." But he does want them to take precautions against the "influenza outbreak, which is having its second wave."

So yes, totalitarianism can easily battle disease by way of lockdown.

Quote

Yes. My bad I got carried away. Sorry about that.

👍

Quote

History in a Crisis — Lessons for Covid-19

Without too much trouble, here is one such link.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0611071104

I'll read the links and get back to you. I just know what I'd previously read. 

Quote

Yet it's politicians questioning the testing process while doctors are saying they are wrong. 

I had doctors telling me it was fine.

Quote

This is mRNA technology. 

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/ss/slideshow-mrna-technology

Quote

The vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna use mRNA to fight COVID-19. When these vaccines were rolled out, it was the first time mRNA was used on humans in vaccine technology. While the concept is new to the public, the research has been around since the early 1990s. 

First time....

Quote

Testing was thorough. There's no good reason at all to think one will be crippled in years to come. That's a actually ludicrous if you know anything about how the vaccine works 

How many people know how a vaccine works? What percentage, do you think?

Quote

It's reckless and helps nobody to fear monger ignorance either. That accomplishes less than nothing as it sets a path backwards. 

If one doesn't know, either learn it or shut it I reckon. 

So, assuming someone did go and do the research, and decided it was ok. Would their previous stand not have been warranted?

An initial stand of skeptism is usually GOOD. Blind trust is usually BAD.

Quote

Big families will continue if religion doesn't.

I'd disagree. Big families have declined world wide. Directly in proportion with education. And directly in proportion with a drop in religiosity. 

Edited by DieChecker
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1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

Hmmm... I wonder why Trump called the operation "Warp Speed".

Cause he's a nut. Wanted to be a hero. Wanted the vaccine, safe, or not-so-safe, regardless.

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6 hours ago, acidhead said:

I find it interesting that even though Trump is in court every single morning it makes it possible for him to give at least 2-3 press conferences each day before, at break and after the trials to all the major media outlets who gather there and are more than willing to report on them and provide the national air time.

 

🤔

Yea , it is though , isn't it? 🤔

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Posted (edited)
On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

The leading edge doesnt mean Not Greedy, or Public Servant. Theyre in it for money. The leaders in the industry are legend in how much they charge people who have no choice.

Make no mistake, while the physicians, and scientists, worked their hearts out. Executives were plotting how to milk the government, and then everyone else.

Big Pharma isnt the average persons friend.

Big pharma is however without doubt the leading edge of technology yes? 

Those people who worked tirelessly are the ones that matter. I don't care if big pharma makes more money than anyone on the planet. It provides a vital service for our existence. 

The money was always coming. I don't see any reason for big pharma to rush a vaccine. It's the very opposite of good business. If the vaccine actually was unstable and started killing people instead of curing them they would be up for a substantial payout. The business risk is too high when the money will come regardless. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Yet Phase Three usually numbers in the thousands. 

FDA... says a minimum of 300. You just said 50.

Rushed...

Corners Cut...

Yeah, thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of the inclusion of international studies. 

Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is administered as a series of two doses, three weeks apart. The available safety data to support the EUA include 37,586 of the participants enrolled in an ongoing randomized, placebo-controlled international study, the majority of whom are U.S. participants. These participants, 18,801 of whom received the vaccine and 18,785 of whom received saline placebo, were followed for a median of two months after receiving the second dose. The most commonly reported side effects, which typically lasted several days, were pain at the injection site, tiredness, headache, muscle pain, chills, joint pain, and fever. Of note, more people experienced these side effects after the second dose than after the first dose, so it is important for vaccination providers and recipients to expect that there may be some side effects after either dose, but even more so after the second dose. 

It is mandatory for Pfizer Inc. and vaccination providers to report the following to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) for Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine: all vaccine administration errors, serious adverse events, cases of Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome (MIS), and cases of COVID-19 that result in hospitalization or death.

 

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-takes-key-action-fight-against-covid-19-issuing-emergency-use-authorization-first-covid-19

 

That's not rushed

No corners cut..

 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

True. But it had never actually been done on an industrial scale before.

That only makes things easier. 

With over a decade of development behind it, there's an abundance of cases and samples to access as well as three previous related diseases. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Theres a reason trials are done 1, 2, 3. And not 1, 1.25, and 1.33. The data for the first trial isn't even collected yet when the third trial is beginning???? You dont see a potential problem with that?

Rushed...

No 

It's not the same people you realise? 

The results can be collated at the conclusion of all studies. Really shouldn't affect anything. Phase one trials explore dosage levels. That had actually already been done with previous sars outbreaks and only needed refinement for this strain. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

The "well known technology" was used for the first time in humans (mRBA), and/or was the fastest approval ever. 

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2096#:~:text=The vaccine has been used,fastest time in FDA history.

Yes 

Do you think testing should be getting slower? 

As we acquire knowledge, better and smarter ways of working speed is a natural progression. 

The first time mRNA technology was tested on humans was in 2013 for rabies. 

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccines

This was well known technology at the time. That's not in question. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

I think thats a selectively worded question, and a selectively worded answer. 

All fact-checkers do this. Word the question to fit the answer they want.

Fact is it DID only get emergency use designation, at first. 

Fact is, no steps were skipped, but what was done isnt even close to what the FDA requires of EVERY other single medicine/drug/vaccine.

It's not selectively worded, it's offering a description of the process and why people instantly get the wrong impression. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

There you go... Emergency use...

Should have only been used initially on those who were in great danger, till a properly trialed version could be created.

But Biden declared a Mandate on day one of approval.

Didn't it go to frontline workers first? 

Yes, emergency use because the pandemic was an emergency. It was a concentrated global effort to deliver a vaccine as quickly as possible because people were dying from Covid. 

Mandates were essential to save lives. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Stage Three trials usually take one to four years. But the covid-19 trials got done in months.

From the FDA who approves all medicines/vaccines/drugs...

https://www.fda.gov/patients/drug-development-process/step-3-clinical-research

But, not "rushed"??? Right...

Because again it was a global effort including collaboration from US, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, South Africa Australia and Turkey. 

As well as being a known technology, the virus must be circulating during the trial to determine if the vaccine is effective to protect against the virus or disease. We had that in abundance due to the rapid nature of Covid. All that allowed an accelerated pace, and accelerated trials are typically 3-9 months 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/vaccines/timeline#:~:text=Phase 3 trials may take,long-term safety and efficacy.

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

It is. Theyre obviously trying very hard to influence me. Which automatically make me skeptical. 

Thinking about "who, why, how", and its just like the Big Oil telling you to drive more, and that Climate Change isnt happening..

Everyone trying to comvince us has huge possible ulterior motives.

I don't think any link I've given you had a hard sell attached. 

Apples and oranges. Scientists are behind climate change just like they were behind the vaccine. They are the only people in referencing. They are providing the science not buzz words. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

And yet ive read these were the fastest major vaccines released EVER. The fastest ever...

With decades of research, previous studies, a history of sars related illness and the application of mRNA and the fact that it's entirely a new approach to medicine. It's technology based. That's how it has now been adopted for cancer trials. Because it can be tailored to suit specific people. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Because politics in endemic to nearly everything in medicine and heathcare. Research, funding, approvals... All have government fingers involved.

And not one politician knows as much about medicine as the guy who empties the bottle bins of surgery clothing. 

Funding is not expertise. 

And they are not related. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

So why do we have the Red Tape? It serves a purpose of Public Health assurance. Guidelines are there for a reason.

It's a bureaucratic hurdle.

The medical profession should decide who wields those scissors. 

Never a politician. Listening to a politician about medicine is entirely wrong. 

When you start seeing a politician for all your health issues I'll reconsider your argument on a personal basis, but I don't, and no thinking person should ever consider politics regarding medicine.

It's like calling painter to wire up your house for electrical use. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Aren't mRNA vaccines brand new?

Again.

No. They are not. Decades of study is not new by any definition. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

I wouldn't. In this thread I said it was great they got them done. And that those in most need of protection, who likely would live only a few more years anyway, should take it.

For a nuclear reactor?

You might be a bit lost here? 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

So... He initially says there'll be no problems. But than after working on it for a year... Flips and says there was problems.

Seems legit possible to me.

Ill need to read the link.

I'll see after you read the link 

He approved it for release. His comments were claimed to be well thought out and well supported. What he has illustrates is he is bad at his job. He either missed something important putting millions at risk, or he had no idea what he was dealing with all along, third option is he is lying to gain favour from right wing CT nutters.

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

How should i know thats true? Ive read were many higher level medical authorities were skeptical at first. And said, "Show me!". Being skeptical isn't bad. 

Aren't they the ones largely writing the advocacy and putting the explanations out there? 

What higher level authorities wouldn't be painfully aware of the intricate detail associated with the Covid vaccine?? 

Being skeptical is fine. Holding onto that scepticism well past a due date is another matter though. Thats how we have the unintelligent people still saying autism is still a result of any vaccine despite the idea being thoroughly debunked. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Just because the majority think something is correct doesn't make it correct. The majority used to think being gay was a mental illness, for example. The majority think Jesus is up in the clouds...

That's not what I said 

I said the majority of trained professionals in the field. 

That an entirely different thing to simply a majority. 

The majority of scientists do not think god exists and the majority of psychologist wouldn't say being gay is a mental illness. Stupid people however could be a majority of both views. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Might just be me, but IMHO thats just an excuse. The internal lockdown within China was/is every bit as blunt as the external lockout. 

What can I say. Deal with it.

Fact is Trump is detrimental to international relations. And will continue to be. It's a valid comment. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Politicians know nothing about most everything. They arent generals, economists, teachers, accountants, or scientists. But they decide a good deal about everything that goes on. Because.... advisors. Who give them advise on Covid, just as with everything else.

The problem isnt politicians, but which politician. Id trust many House Representives to vote on things like aid for Ukraine, and there are some Representives who no one should trust.

So they actually know as much as you or I yes? Fauci was in TV a great deal I understand as was out own chief medical officer Paul Kelly. 

The people your politicians take direction from ate supposed to be the people you take direction from. You might ask a politician look at taxes to make your visit to the doctor more regular but you aren't going to start seeing a politician for regular health checkups. No matter how well advised that politician is. 

In a medical capacity a politician is as capable as a garbage collector. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

Which speaks to your base assumption, that people do the research. They go to their medical authority, who tells them theyre within their rights to be suspicious... skeptical. And the people proceed with their lives.

Youd have everyone go to a new doctor till they get one thats says what you want them to say?

I would have doctors who aren't wishy washy procrastinators. Do what you want, so what's the point of him? He should be able to outright offer good advice without flinching. Is he a professional or what?

Maybe he has had anti vax altercations he doesn't wish to repeat and takes a soft approach. Sounds like he doesn't care about his job anyway if he is so casual. Crap doctor. IMO. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

They locked down and let no one in. That works if youre an island, and have no easily crossed borders.

It works if you get behind the medical authorities and take medical advice. The reason they had the lowest fatalities and infections because lockdown works. 

When you have a bunch of aholes who have little to no respect for community and think Dr Google just made them the leading medical authority or just dumbasses bleating freedumz you get more dead people. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

They forced approaching boats to go away, regardless of their medical states. 

I guess Trump could have prevented all flights in, and quarrinteened entire towns and airports. He started a limited form of travel ban, but Democrat congress, and Fasci, said there was no need. Facsi who was the world leading authority. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/

So yes, totalitarianism can easily battle disease by way of lockdown.

👍

That link is from Feb 14 2020. 

Nobody really knew what it was then. The first US case was two weeks old. 

Fauci changed his advice significantly in the ensuing weeks and months. 

No idea what your mentioning totalitarianism. Not having an excess of stupid people is actually pretty good. I assume it's a joke. 

Trump downplayed the virus when it hit. He is directly responsible for an estimated 140,000 excess deaths. If a nation or terrorists cost that many lives it would be WW III. Because it's Trump Americans didn't care. Perhaps the Reds thought the blues would die and vice versa. Who knows. America handled Covid really badly. If Biden hadn't stepped in and sorted it out, there would be another hundred thousand or more needless deaths.

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

I'll read the links and get back to you. I just know what I'd previously read. 

Considering how extensively it's been used in history, I find the claim of no studies before 2020 a bit hard to believe. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

I had doctors telling me it was fine.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/ss/slideshow-mrna-technology

First time....

Not the first time, the first time for sars.

However more importantly, your love no state this:

While the concept is new to the public, the research has been around since the early 1990s. 

How is that new in any way? You mentioned above that you think questions have been worded to point at a certain answer, yet that's exactly what you are doing. 

A product in research for over three decades is not new. 

What you are proposing is like saying a new Kia ute is out this year. It's highly dangerous and should be approached with extreme caution and avoided because Kia had never ever made a ute in it's range. It's an entirely brand new thing. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

How many people know how a vaccine works? What percentage, do you think?

This one? In case you hadn't noticed there's no shortage of "experts". 

Everyone should know. The information is plastered at every opportunity. "Big pharma" for when your playing conspiracy warrior has been open and released the required information to understand it.  

Yet people make up dumb stuff like microchips and 5G which is ridiculously easy to debunk. Because so E people have authority problems and make everyone else pay for their shortcomings. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

So, assuming someone did go and do the research, and decided it was ok. Would their previous stand not have been warranted?

An initial stand of skeptism is usually GOOD. Blind trust is usually BAD.

It can be good, it depends on the motive. 

Again. Unless one is a medical professional, they aren't qualified to make the call. It's good to understand things, it's also wise to stay in your lane. 

On 4/26/2024 at 8:33 PM, DieChecker said:

I'd disagree. Big families have declined world wide. Directly in proportion with education. And directly in proportion with a drop in religiosity. 

I don't think they will save religion is all. But I don't think they will be eliminated entirely either. I can't see it as some great hope to bolster religious numbers. Religion logically should fade away eventually. That's the nature of increased knowledge. Superstitions fall by the wayside. It's not like some hod is going to show up and say, hey everyone goes it going. Sorry it's been a couple thousand years but anyway here I am. 

Edited by psyche101
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So is tRump VP choice some mean cold hearted gal who kills puppies ,?

If so I'm not at all shocked he would pick her, after all he tried to use bullying threats to steal an election from the American people

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On 4/25/2024 at 6:27 PM, the13bats said:

Very, very well said,

What was shoddy to say the least was BOMs incompetent response to covid.

It's weird to me, tRump subjects seem to feel the need to go full blow rabbit hole on anti vaccine yet their lord and master vaxxed as did many of them, well the ones who didn't die taking Trump's advice.

It actually really surprises me how quickly and easily these conspiracy theories get around, and the level of support and beliefs behind them. 

It just shouldn't happen in this day and age. Yet so many are held hostage by the ideals of people who believe conspiracy theories. They shouldn't be allowed to vote. 

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On 4/29/2024 at 12:50 AM, psyche101 said:

Big pharma is however without doubt the leading edge of technology yes? 

Those people who worked tirelessly are the ones that matter. I don't care if big pharma makes more money than anyone on the planet. It provides a vital service for our existence. 

Leading edge of the technology, yes?

As someone who works in "leading edge" technology (computer processors, and memory), I can 100% tell you not all of the leading edge products are winners. For every new product innovation that makes it into the public forum, two or three die along the way.

Quote

Yeah, thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of the inclusion of international studies. 

Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is administered as a series of two doses, three weeks apart. The available safety data to support the EUA include 37,586 of the participants enrolled in an ongoing randomized, placebo-controlled international study, the majority of whom are U.S. participants. These participants, 18,801 of whom received the vaccine and 18,785 of whom received saline placebo, were followed for a median of two months after receiving the second dose. The most commonly reported side effects, which typically lasted several days, were pain at the injection site, tiredness, headache, muscle pain, chills, joint pain, and fever. Of note, more people experienced these side effects after the second dose than after the first dose, so it is important for vaccination providers and recipients to expect that there may be some side effects after either dose, but even more so after the second dose. 

It is mandatory for Pfizer Inc. and vaccination providers to report the following to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) for Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine: all vaccine administration errors, serious adverse events, cases of Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome (MIS), and cases of COVID-19 that result in hospitalization or death.

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-takes-key-action-fight-against-covid-19-issuing-emergency-use-authorization-first-covid-19

I think it says a lot right there where it says "ongoing". Meaning the trials weren't actually over.

From your link...

Quote

The FDA also expects manufacturers whose COVID-19 vaccines are authorized under an EUA to continue their clinical trials to obtain additional safety and effectiveness information and pursue approval (licensure).

But, but, but... Why? If is 100% stable and safe....

Because... Maybe it isnt...

Thus skeptism. Thus people resisting enforced vaccination.

You know what the FDA also did? At around the same time?

Quote

That's what happened with hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. The FDA granted an EUA to the drugs -- much praised by President Donald Trump -- on March 28. It subsequently revoked its EUA in June after studies showed they were not effective and could also potentially cause serious heart problems.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html

So the same FDA approved hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, but when they approved the mRNA vaccines, that... that we shouldn't be skeptical about. Sure...

And also from that link...

Quote

An EUA is much quicker. Only once before has the FDA given a vaccine this lesser standard approval of an EUA, but it was in an unusual circumstance. Soldiers had sued, claiming a mandatory anthrax vaccine made them sick, and a judge put a hold on the program. The Department of Defense asked for an EUA that then overrode the court ruling in 2005, so it could continue vaccinating military personnel -- this time on a voluntary basis.

Otherwise, vaccines have had to go through the entire clinical trial process and FDA approval process, which can take months or years.

So the EUA had only ever been used once before. For anthrax. Interesting. 

Doesn't fill me with confidence.

Quote

That's not rushed

No corners cut..

You keep saying that. But red tape was cut. Trials runs overlapping. Trial timeframes contracted. Trial participant numbers less than normal. Government review, and approval, in record time. Phase three trials not completed. EUA only used once before...

The difference beween hurried, and rushed, is that "rushed" connotates a lack of care.

AFAIK, that lack of care didnt happen. Except, you know, all the Congressional expert witnesses coming forward. 

Quote

The results can be collated at the conclusion of all studies. Really shouldn't affect anything. Phase one trials explore dosage levels. That had actually already been done with previous sars outbreaks and only needed refinement for this strain.

So youre saying SARS and Covid-19 are basically the same thing? Treatment for one equals the other? I find that hard to believe. I think dosage levels would have not been something they would take for granted.

Quote

Do you think testing should be getting slower? 

As we acquire knowledge, better and smarter ways of working speed is a natural progression. 

I think if there are Federal Regulations governing how things are approved, that we should follow those regulations. I think the scheduling, and testing, requirements serve a purpose, or they wouldnt be there.

Quote

The first time mRNA technology was tested on humans was in 2013 for rabies. 

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccines

This was well known technology at the time. That's not in question. 

Yet the Rabies vaccine wasnt ready for release, was it. 

Its all fine, except you know, how everything was rushed. Good thing the roll of the dice came up as it did.

Quote

Didn't it go to frontline workers first? 

Yes, emergency use because the pandemic was an emergency.

Yes, an emergency. Than why did Biden's Administration declare (Demand) everone should have it on day one of approval? 

AFAIK almost all the initial doses went to medical personnel, or those at high risk. Which was good.

Heres an article...

Quote

The vaccine is not approved as a fully licensed medical product, but authorized under emergency use, which means that data on its long term safety and effectiveness isn’t as robust as that of an approved product. As a result, some health workers may decide to wait before getting vaccinated.

Ah geez. You mean some medical professionals decided NOT to get the initial dose because it was only under Emergency approval? Huh? Imagine that?

Quote

Mandates were essential to save lives.

But were they?

Who died? The elderly (retired), and those with significant co-morbidities. For the most part. Should these people have the vaccines? Yeah. Should the government Demand everyone get the vaccines to protect those people? No. It shoukd be voluntary.

Those at risk should distance themselves... As they would with the flu, measles, or a chicken pox outbreak. 

Quote

As well as being a known technology, the virus must be circulating during the trial to determine if the vaccine is effective to protect against the virus or disease. We had that in abundance due to the rapid nature of Covid. All that allowed an accelerated pace, and accelerated trials are typically 3-9 months 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/vaccines/timeline#:~:text=Phase 3 trials may take,long-term safety and efficacy.

And from that link...

Quote

Phase III Clinical Trials to Assess Safety and Efficacy
Phase III clinical trials are critical to understanding whether vaccines are safe and effective. Phase III trials often include tens of thousands of volunteers. Participants are chosen at random to receive the vaccine or a placebo. In Phase III, participants and most of the study investigators do not know who has received the vaccine and who received the placebo. Participants are then followed to see how many in each group get the disease. Assessing short- and long-term safety is also a major goal of phase 3 trials.

ACCELERATED
Phase 3 trials may take six to nine months to allow early assessment of safety and efficacy, particularly if conducted in areas with a high risk of infection, but with follow-up continuing for two years or more to assess long-term safety and efficacy

Even the accellerated says two years or more to assess long term safety...

So were the three levels of trials completed when the vaccines were approved?

No they were not. They werent even completed when full approval was issued just months later. Couldn't have been. Not enought time was involved.

Quote

With decades of research, previous studies, a history of sars related illness and the application of mRNA and the fact that it's entirely a new approach to medicine. It's technology based. That's how it has now been adopted for cancer trials. Because it can be tailored to suit specific people.

And here you even wrote it is an "entirely new approach to medicine".

Its great its being adopted for cancer. I hope they dont rush those trials.

Quote

And not one politician knows as much about medicine as the guy who empties the bottle bins of surgery clothing.

Rand Paul is a US Senator who is the main Republican looking into Facsi, and Covid-19, and what "really" happened. And he was a practicing doctor for over two decades before being elected to the Senate. 

So though youre statement, in general, is true. In specifics, is not.

There are currently 19 Physicians in the House of Representatives. Of which 15 are Republican, and 4 are Democrat.

Quote

It's a bureaucratic hurdle.

The medical profession should decide who wields those scissors. 

...

It's like calling painter to wire up your house for electrical use. 

So skipping the bureaucracy going forward should be ok, yeah? All drugs should be released in less than a year, yeah?

Electricians need not have their work checked. As long as they say they didnt cut any corners. I mean what could happen? House burns down? Hardly ever happens, so those safety checks really arent needed, right?

Quote

Again.

No. They are not. Decades of study is not new by any definition. 

Sure it is. Decades of study doesnt imply safety, or that it even works. Doesnt speak to if its ready for the public, or not. What speaks to such is the trials, which they compressed significantly. Very significantly.

Fusion has been studied for decades, but if they made a first of a kind functional fusion reactor and said its turning out free energy, I'd call them liars. At best I'd be very skeptical and wonder how safe what they were peddling was.

Quote

He approved it for release. His comments were claimed to be well thought out and well supported. What he has illustrates is he is bad at his job. He either missed something important putting millions at risk, or he had no idea what he was dealing with all along, third option is he is lying to gain favour from right wing CT nutters.

Id accept all of those as a possibility. Along with that he's telling the truth. Lying to Congress, as some of Trump's buddies did, results in going to prison. Especially if its about something easily disproved, such as a supposedly hyper-recorded medical product developement.

Quote

Being skeptical is fine. Holding onto that scepticism well past a due date is another matter though. Thats how we have the unintelligent people still saying autism is still a result of any vaccine despite the idea being thoroughly debunked.

That's fine. Have I suggested in these exchanges that such is my opinion? Or was I talking mainly about the first year of the vaccines, and specifically about right after they came out??

Quote

The majority of scientists do not think god exists and the majority of psychologist wouldn't say being gay is a mental illness. Stupid people however could be a majority of both views.

The vast majority of mental health professionals did indeed categorize being gay as a mental disorder. It was 1987 when that changed.

It was 2012 before transgender was removed as a mental disorder.

A majority medical opinion, is not always the best opinion. Its just the current opinion. 

Quote

What can I say. Deal with it.

I do enjoy seeing the occational story on "The Lab Leak Theory". Its still ongoing you know. More documents released all the time.

Apparently tens of thousands of emails indicating more then a little collusion happened among those "medical professionals" you always are referencing. 

Quote

It works if you get behind the medical authorities and take medical advice. The reason they had the lowest fatalities and infections because lockdown works.

True. Lockdowns work. Flight bans do too. But Trump caught Hell for wanting flights banned out of China. By the Medical Community. By the time they changed thier minds... It was way too late.

Want I should find some articles calling Trump a racist for wanting to ban travel from China?

Quote

Fauci changed his advice significantly in the ensuing weeks and months. 

....

Trump downplayed the virus when it hit. He is directly responsible for an estimated 140,000 excess deaths. 

So you are supporting, and excusing, Facsi, who also downplayed the virus when it hit. And who was Trump's head advisor for months. But are condemning Trump for the same performance during the same time period?

Trump did screw things up later. And Fasci did change his advise. But if we're talking about those first couple months...

Quote

Considering how extensively it's been used in history, I find the claim of no studies before 2020 a bit hard to believe.

Ah, i see the issue now. The point wasnt that "social distancing" is new, or ineffective. The point was that 10 feet, or 6 feet, neither was decided by a study. The government came up with a best guess, had politics get involved, and settled on six feet.

Quote

Not the first time, the first time for sars.

There was a mRBA vaccine for SARS? 

Last i heard they were still working on that. 

Quote

A product in research for over three decades is not new. 

What you are proposing is like saying a new Kia ute is out this year. It's highly dangerous and should be approached with extreme caution and avoided because Kia had never ever made a ute in it's range. It's an entirely brand new thing. 

More like Kia has a new hydrogen based car out, and its their first ever hydrogen sale model. But dont worry, because they spent a quarter the normal amount of time seeing if it was safe.

Hydrogen cars have been in research since the 70s, but arent for sale widespread... Because there are still issues. Any sale model would need twice, or more, the safety checks as a regular gasoline model.

Quote

This one? In case you hadn't noticed there's no shortage of "experts". 

Everyone should know. The information is plastered at every opportunity. "Big pharma" for when your playing conspiracy warrior has been open and released the required information to understand it.  

Seems like youre dodging the question. The fact is many, if not most, people are actually very bad with science. And really don't care much to go to an expert. They're happy with the public opinions on Facebook.

Quote

It can be good, it depends on the motive. 

Again. Unless one is a medical professional, they aren't qualified to make the call. It's good to understand things, it's also wise to stay in your lane. 

Fair enough.

But it did seem you considered even initial skeptism as being stupid.

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28 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

It actually really surprises me how quickly and easily these conspiracy theories get around, and the level of support and beliefs behind them. 

It just shouldn't happen in this day and age. Yet so many are held hostage by the ideals of people who believe conspiracy theories. They shouldn't be allowed to vote. 

Idk it's dumbfounding to me I'll hear some conspiracy theory and think the person is joking, trying to get one over on me because otherwise I have to accept some people are just that idiotic, utterly ridiculously credious,

And what's the common denominator? Most almost 100% are immersed in not just support but full head bowed bent knee worship of the marmalade Messiah,

 

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One persons conspiricy theory is anothers truth.

And it is those who can look at their "truth", and judge it, rather then accept it by faith, who deserve to be listened to.

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On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Leading edge of the technology, yes?

As someone who works in "leading edge" technology (computer processors, and memory), I can 100% tell you not all of the leading edge products are winners. For every new product innovation that makes it into the public forum, two or three die along the way.

Then you would call that R&D yes? 

That's what been going on since the 90s regarding mRNA technology. 

And yet, they are the most knowledgeable people in the planet regarding their specific field are they not? There aren't any unqualified politicians making R & D decisions are there. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

I think it says a lot right there where it says "ongoing". Meaning the trials weren't actually over.

 Not a trial. An ongoing study. 

Humans aren't identical. That's why there are rare cases of incompatibility. The roster they are the harder to find. Only s long term study would eventually capture them all. It doesn't have anything to do with rushing the procedure. Also, information on tests regarding everything from batches of the vaccine to the production process and the facilities are also monitored safety. 

 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

From your link...

But, but, but... Why? If is 100% stable and safe....

Because... Maybe it isnt...

Of course it is. You don't work on something for decades and not be aware of risks involved. Especially when that is ones speciality.

After decades of research you wouldn't want some shoddy operation to put a valuable life saving vaccine in doubt for no good reason. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Thus skeptism. Thus people resisting enforced vaccination.

Not skepticism.

Arrogance. Ego. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

You know what the FDA also did? At around the same time?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html

So the same FDA approved hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, but when they approved the mRNA vaccines, that... that we shouldn't be skeptical about. Sure...

And what a surprise that the orangutan who played president was involved....

House panel says Trump staffers pressured FDA to authorize unproven COVID-19 treatment

Officials in the Trump White House tried to pressure U.S. health experts into reauthorizing a discredited COVID-19 treatment, according to a congressional investigation that provides new evidence of that administration’s efforts to override Food and Drug Administration decisions early in the pandemic.

The report Wednesday by the Democratic-led House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis also sheds new light on the role that television personalities played in bringing hydroxychloroquine to the attention of top White House officials. Investigators highlighted an email from Fox News’ Laura Ingraham and others from Dr. Mehmet Oz, the celebrity heart surgeon who had a daytime TV show and is now the Republican Senate nominee in Pennsylvania. Ingraham attended an Oval Office meeting with President Donald Trump, who himself took the anti-malaria drug.

Pretty much anything that turns to rubbish in the states has orange fingerprints on it 

We both know he is the dumbass how pushed it. We both know once he was gone the order was overwritten. 

Along with the nutcase anti vaxers and HCQ advocates. 

That's what happens when idiot politicians think they know more than doctors.

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

And also from that link...

So the EUA had only ever been used once before. For anthrax. Interesting. 

Doesn't fill me with confidence.

No, I mentioned another incident already 

It has been implemented many times, it became more regular after 911. An EUA was issued then and is often required for PPE. 

https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/bioshield/#:~:text=Project BioShield will allow the,well as other CBRN agents.

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

You keep saying that. But red tape was cut. Trials runs overlapping. Trial timeframes contracted. Trial participant numbers less than normal. Government review, and approval, in record time. Phase three trials not completed. EUA only used once before...

The difference beween hurried, and rushed, is that "rushed" connotates a lack of care.

AFAIK, that lack of care didnt happen. Except, you know, all the Congressional expert witnesses coming forward. 

You're just hand waving though. Using terminology, as politicians tend to, to create a panic that doesn't exist. A politician came forward, I assume your referring to your previous example. Not a medical professional. You can't actually point at anything that could cause concern it's just a generalisation of terms to form a narrative. 

Lack of care is what matters here. As you say that wasn't an issue. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

So youre saying SARS and Covid-19 are basically the same thing? Treatment for one equals the other? I find that hard to believe. I think dosage levels would have not been something they would take for granted.

Yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying.

COVID-19 seems not to be very different from SARS regarding its clinical features. However, it has a fatality rate of 2.3%, lower than that of SARS (9.5%) and much lower than that of MERS (34.4%). 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32234451/#:~:text=Content%3A COVID-19 seems not,that of MERS (34.4%).

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

I think if there are Federal Regulations governing how things are approved, that we should follow those regulations. I think the scheduling, and testing, requirements serve a purpose, or they wouldnt be there.

It's good to be overly cautious but not always practical. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Yet the Rabies vaccine wasnt ready for release, was it. 

Its all fine, except you know, how everything was rushed. Good thing the roll of the dice came up as it did.

And that it was a success doesn't fill you with confidence? 

Ad I said, these are professional people who know what they are doing. There is science to follow here. A+B=C. Doctors aren't witches boiling up bats wings and nightshade. It's not a guess. It's a science. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Yes, an emergency. Than why did Biden's Administration declare (Demand) everone should have it on day one of approval? 

AFAIK almost all the initial doses went to medical personnel, or those at high risk. Which was good.

Heres an article...

To save lives. Any responsible leader would do exactly the same. Brazil, like Trump, played it down and was hot very hard. Many lives lost because a politician made the call instead of a doctor. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Ah geez. You mean some medical professionals decided NOT to get the initial dose because it was only under Emergency approval? Huh? Imagine that?

That's a broad definition of health professionals isn't it? some health workers

That's everyone including janitors, people who just wheel patients around, cleaners, stockists, etc etc. 

Yeah I can imagine that. 

What you won't find is a well qualified doctor who was undecided. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

But were they?

Who died? The elderly (retired), and those with significant co-morbidities. For the most part. Should these people have the vaccines? Yeah. Should the government Demand everyone get the vaccines to protect those people? No. It shoukd be voluntary.

Those at risk should distance themselves... As they would with the flu, measles, or a chicken pox outbreak. 

And how does a school kid who is looked after by a grandparent, as is you case yeah? Protect the grandparent? It happened. Some children found themselves on their own when caters succumbed to Covid 

Not to mention the moral dilemma of deciding who lives and who dies. Do you really want that on your shoulders? I know I wouldn't. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

And from that link...

Even the accellerated says two years or more to assess long term safety...

So were the three levels of trials completed when the vaccines were approved?

No they were not. They werent even completed when full approval was issued just months later. Couldn't have been. Not enought time was involved.

No, it doesn't say that 

Phase 3 trials may take six to nine months to allow early assessment of safety and efficacy, particularly if conducted in areas with a high risk of infection, but with follow-up continuing for two years or more to assess long-term safety and efficacy

It says six to nine months with two or more years of monitoring. Nothing like same. 

We know there are some very rare sice effects. We know that there isn't a vaccine that's 100% effective. No such thing had ever existed and due to the nature of human physiology, there never can be. 

That monitoring betters the vaccine by knowing those rare incidents better and hopefully counter them. Everything can always be improved. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

And here you even wrote it is an "entirely new approach to medicine".

Its great its being adopted for cancer. I hope they dont rush those trials.

It is a new approach. We are back to understanding the vaccine. mRNA has been something we have known to have immense potential for decades now. That much was discovered in the 70s. It doesn't work like traditional vaccines.

I don't have to explain thay do I?  You do understand that mRNA works nothing like traditional vaccines? It specifically targets disease instead of adjusting your imine system to do that. So it can actually be designed to assist with a large number of ailments.

Of course the cancer vaccine isn't rushed. That's humour isn't it? 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Rand Paul is a US Senator who is the main Republican looking into Facsi, and Covid-19, and what "really" happened. And he was a practicing doctor for over two decades before being elected to the Senate. 

So though youre statement, in general, is true. In specifics, is not.

There are currently 19 Physicians in the House of Representatives. Of which 15 are Republican, and 4 are Democrat.

:lol:

Rand Paul. Oh gees. It's sad that you actually felt he was worth mentioning 

You do know that hypocrites wife own shares in Gilead Sciences—which makes an antiviral drug used to treat COVID-19? And she bought them in February 2020? 

This is the idiot who said masks do not work at all, he said Covid is not ever fatal, and claimed Fauci invented Covid to undermine the health profession, which actually brands him a king of misinformation? And he was banned from YouTube because he did promote known misinformation? They guy lying through his teeth about covid all the time? 

That Rand Paul? 

And you're serious?????????

What do you feel the other alleged doctors have to offer and do you know their stances? 

When I see sham political outfits comprised of do called doctors the first thing that comes to mind is the frontline doctors scam. They should all be in trial right now to explain why they should be allowed to keep any licenses they have and made accountable for people left astray and all the lives lost to HCQ thanks to their political views parading ad medical views. 

And it pays to note that one must practise medicine to be able to call oneself a doctor. If you practised a martial art when you young and got a black belt at 14, if you hadn't practised since then you couldn't call yourself a black belt when you are 45. It's an extreme example but illustrates the point I'm making. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

So skipping the bureaucracy going forward should be ok, yeah? All drugs should be released in less than a year, yeah?

If it has decades of research behind it why not exactly? 

It's not like it's an unknown. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Electricians need not have their work checked. As long as they say they didnt cut any corners. I mean what could happen? House burns down? Hardly ever happens, so those safety checks really arent needed, right?

Yet that's the current situation isn't it. It is here. Inspectors were removed in the early eighties. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Sure it is. Decades of study doesnt imply safety, or that it even works. Doesnt speak to if its ready for the public, or not. What speaks to such is the trials, which they compressed significantly. Very significantly.

No. Wrong terminology again. Overlapping doesn't mean compressed. You can run full overlapping trials without the need for compression. The word you're looking for here is acceleration. That's a viable and trusted method across many industries including the one my career is based on. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Fusion has been studied for decades, but if they made a first of a kind functional fusion reactor and said its turning out free energy, I'd call them liars. At best I'd be very skeptical and wonder how safe what they were peddling was.

But they don't. Because they are professionals. We have had bursts of fission but unsustainable. That is what we get told and that's what is happening. 

That's the thing here. We know how to achieve fusion, we observe it with the sun. It's not a mystery. We don't have the equipment to achieve what we need to to sustain fusion. We can create it, we understand it, we can't build something to keep it running. 

Fission would be harder to believe, but still something we understand intimately. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Id accept all of those as a possibility. Along with that he's telling the truth. Lying to Congress, as some of Trump's buddies did, results in going to prison. Especially if its about something easily disproved, such as a supposedly hyper-recorded medical product developement.

Another Republican Covid expert.

I won't hold my breath of that's ok. 

How many of these clowns must we suffer before realising it's a game to politicians. People mean nothing to them. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

That's fine. Have I suggested in these exchanges that such is my opinion? Or was I talking mainly about the first year of the vaccines, and specifically about right after they came out??

I'm honestly not sure. You're very thorough in debates. You appear invested but from past exchanges you could just be pushing the envelope. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

The vast majority of mental health professionals did indeed categorize being gay as a mental disorder. It was 1987 when that changed.

It was 2012 before transgender was removed as a mental disorder.

A majority medical opinion, is not always the best opinion. Its just the current opinion. 

That wasn't globally the case. Covid and medical consensus is. 

And it's not quite correct. Medical professionals proved there's no actual physical attribute that can be identified as a "gay gene". It was Freudian psychoanalysts and psychiatrists who create that myth. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

I do enjoy seeing the occational story on "The Lab Leak Theory". Its still ongoing you know. More documents released all the time.

I don't know how it can bring you joy. 

It's a dark cloud of horrid conspiracy that tries hard to bury the real truth. I can only view the lab leak idea in contempt. It's a tool used to dumb people down. And I find that abhorrent. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Apparently tens of thousands of emails indicating more then a little collusion happened among those "medical professionals" you always are referencing. 

No. 

There just isn't. People parading ad medical professionals don't count. 

People who actually worked on the vaccine aren't in the rabble rousers. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

True. Lockdowns work. Flight bans do too. But Trump caught Hell for wanting flights banned out of China. By the Medical Community. By the time they changed thier minds... It was way too late.

Want I should find some articles calling Trump a racist for wanting to ban travel from China?

No. 

I can find plenty of idiotic speeches blaming Chyna virus too. The man's an ahole and his contempt for others gets returned, you as a nation pay for that fool and his abrasive ramblings. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

So you are supporting, and excusing, Facsi, who also downplayed the virus when it hit. And who was Trump's head advisor for months. But are condemning Trump for the same performance during the same time period?

Trump did screw things up later. And Fasci did change his advise. But if we're talking about those first couple months...

What's to excuse exactly? 

There were t cases, we had virtually no information, we heard there was a potentially serious virus. The vaccine wasn't even a thought in those first couple months 

When we did learn just how serious it was, Fauci conveyed that. Trump did not. He continued to downplay it at the cost of around 140,000 lives. He should be held accountable as president but won't be because he cons many of the American people easily. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Ah, i see the issue now. The point wasnt that "social distancing" is new, or ineffective. The point was that 10 feet, or 6 feet, neither was decided by a study. The government came up with a best guess, had politics get involved, and settled on six feet.

Really, who cares? Like that's actually an issue? 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

There was a mRBA vaccine for SARS? 

Last i heard they were still working on that. 

Only the SARS 19. SARS 1 & 2 provided the framework as I noted earlier.

Coronavirus vaccine development: from SARS and MERS to COVID-19

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

More like Kia has a new hydrogen based car out, and its their first ever hydrogen sale model. But dont worry, because they spent a quarter the normal amount of time seeing if it was safe.

Hydrogen cars have been in research since the 70s, but arent for sale widespread... Because there are still issues. Any sale model would need twice, or more, the safety checks as a regular gasoline model.

 No, that's not quite right either. 

Hydrogen vehicles are awesome. Making hydrogen is the hurdle. 

There's a security company here in oz that changed its entire fleet to hydrogen. The selling point was the fuel. A 25k one year lease from Toyota includes all the refueling they want. 

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/103390084

No need to worry there either. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Seems like youre dodging the question. The fact is many, if not most, people are actually very bad with science. And really don't care much to go to an expert. They're happy with the public opinions on Facebook.

That should really make it easier and more prolific.

For instance, that grub Monroe who lied about his involvement and spread misinformation far and wide was countered by actual scientists and doctors working in the vaccine and understanding the virus. There was a lot of stupid misinformation out there but it was mostly politically orientated. 

There was also a great deal of certifiable information too, countering the misinformation.

This is where stupid steps in. 

Many decided to listen to a politician instead of a doctor. A personal choice. These are largely the people opposing the vaccine, and I can't excuse deliberate ignorance. It's not like every opportunity was there to learn and fully understand but some thought they knew better anyway.

Hell, a lot of people died because they went to church. I actually heard a person say they weren't at all worried because god wouldn't let his worshipers get Covid. I understand that killed a great many people in Italy. 

On 4/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, DieChecker said:

Fair enough.

But it did seem you considered even initial skeptism as being stupid.

Well yes, I don't see it as viable.

Curiosity I could understand but I don't feel skepticism was warranted here. 

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On 4/30/2024 at 7:06 PM, DieChecker said:

One persons conspiricy theory is anothers truth.

No.

A lie is a lie is a lie. 

One can believe with all ones might that the moon landing didn't happen but it still did. It's not truth regardless of who believes what. 

On 4/30/2024 at 7:06 PM, DieChecker said:

And it is those who can look at their "truth", and judge it, rather then accept it by faith, who deserve to be listened to.

The problem is this method leads to "truthers" who are always at complete odds with the actual truth. But tell people they are telling the truth anyway.

Things are what they are. 

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22 hours ago, psyche101 said:

No.

A lie is a lie is a lie. 

One can believe with all ones might that the moon landing didn't happen but it still did. It's not truth regardless of who believes what. 

Unless its true. Youre using an easy to prove example, but not all points are so easy to disprove.

Quote

The problem is this method leads to "truthers" who are always at complete odds with the actual truth. But tell people they are telling the truth anyway.

Things are what they are. 

Ah, but with truthers, you can dispute their "facts". People who accept on faith dont need facts, and cant be argued with at all.

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Damn. I keep writing back a long post, and something times out and i lose it.

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58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Unless its true. Youre using an easy to prove example, but not all points are so easy to disprove.

Only the truth is the truth. Conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories. 

I've seen some really dumb memes insinuating that conspiracies over things like Covid are true. They aren't but people want to believe they are and say they are .

58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Ah, but with truthers, you can dispute their "facts". People who accept on faith dont need facts, and cant be argued with at all.

That's where conspiracy theories go though. That's how conspiracy theory nutters come to believe they are vindicated. 

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20 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Damn. I keep writing back a long post, and something times out and i lose it.

Happens to me sometimes too. Or I get the first two lines I replied with.

I feel your pain. It's really annoying. 

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On 5/2/2024 at 12:55 AM, psyche101 said:

Then you would call that R&D yes? 

Yes, but i work with R&D every day, and often they cut corners they wouldn't on a production product. Usually when a product moves from reserach to production, it requires a whole new set of testing. As during research often what is done is on a small scale. Ramping up to large scale ALWAYS requires adjustments and sometimes as much as a complete rework (or abandonmemt) of a design. 

Quote

Not a trial. An ongoing study.

I think it was the trial that continued. Ill look into it.

Quote

After decades of research you wouldn't want some shoddy operation to put a valuable life saving vaccine in doubt for no good reason.

But there was a reason. A pandemic. And a world crying out for a vaccine. Very strong motive to go quick... maybe even compress... cut read tape... cut corners... hurry... rush...

Quote

Ingraham attended an Oval Office meeting with President Donald Trump, who himself took the anti-malaria drug.

Yes, not smart.

Quote

It has been implemented many times, it became more regular after 911. An EUA was issued then and is often required for PPE.

But only the second approval specifically for a vaccine.

Quote

Lack of care is what matters here. As you say that wasn't an issue. .

Doesn't seem to be anyway. Congressional investigations continue.

Quote

And that it was a success doesn't fill you with confidence?

Id say it is a very good datapoint going into the future. A few more successes and doubts might disappear. 

Quote

Doctors aren't witches boiling up bats wings and nightshade. It's not a guess. It's a science. 

Some of them are. Especially in places like... China.

Many research projects shotgun samples, and look at the data to refine what chemicals seem to work.

Quote

What you won't find is a well qualified doctor who was undecided. 

Ah. But who decides who's "well qualified"? Seems to me you're saying only people who agree with you are "qualified".

Quote

And how does a school kid who is looked after by a grandparent, as is you case yeah? Protect the grandparent? It happened. Some children found themselves on their own when caters succumbed to Covid  

Well like i said, granpa should take every precaution he can. Get the shots. Dont go out much. Wash hands all the time.

Its not up to granpas neighbor Dumbax to protect granpa. He can if he likes. But that cant be... shouldn't be... mandated.

Quote

Not to mention the moral dilemma of deciding who lives and who dies. Do you really want that on your shoulders? I know I wouldn't.

Humm... In the US usually its not up to me to stop others from being stupid. Those who were most in danger needed to look after themselves first. 

Its not my job to prevent a drunk driver, or take drain-o from teenagers, or buy housing for the homeless. And the government can not force me to do those either.

I dont usually feel overly sorry for self damaging idiots.

Quote

Phase 3 trials may take six to nine months to allow early assessment of safety and efficacy, particularly if conducted in areas with a high risk of infection, but with follow-up continuing for two years or more to assess long-term safety and efficacy

It says six to nine months with two or more years of monitoring. Nothing like same.

Ah. I see your point. But still is the Phase 3 closed till the monitoring is done? Usually not.

Long term efficiency and safety is part of the trial. Or at least I thought so.

Early safety and efficiency only allows for Emergency Approval. 

Did full two years go by before Full Approval? No...

Quote

It is a new approach. We are back to understanding the vaccine. mRNA has been something we have known to have immense potential for decades now. That much was discovered in the 70s. It doesn't work like traditional vaccines.

Regardless of how long its been studied. It is very new. And thus subject to suspicion and skepticism.

Quote

Of course the cancer vaccine isn't rushed. That's humour isn't it?

It was...

Quote

That Rand Paul? 

Regardless, he's got the education, and worked as a physician for nearly 20 years.

You seemed to suggest people like that simply didnt disagree on the vaccines, or covids origins. 

Quote

And it pays to note that one must practise medicine to be able to call oneself a doctor. If you practised a martial art when you young and got a black belt at 14, if you hadn't practised since then you couldn't call yourself a black belt when you are 45. It's an extreme example but illustrates the point I'm making.

True enough. But at the same time are we not shifting the goalposts?

At first the it was "scientists". Then "medical professionals". And now "licensed" physicians, and "viral researchers". If someone didnt work on one of the vaccines, their opinion is irrelevant?

Quote

If it has decades of research behind it why not exactly?

I'd say if it can be shown to be safe, do it. I'm all for smaller government, and less regulations. In general anyway.

But till its proven, we should use the established system. 

A world wide pandemic seems a poor time to cut corners.

Quote

No. Wrong terminology again. Overlapping doesn't mean compressed. You can run full overlapping trials without the need for compression. The word you're looking for here is acceleration. That's a viable and trusted method across many industries including the one my career is based on.

I thought the link you posted used the term "compressed". The trials were compressed, as well as overlapped. 

Quote

I'm honestly not sure. You're very thorough in debates. You appear invested but from past exchanges you could just be pushing the envelope.

I certainly believe early on that much was hidden from the public. Possibly to try to reduce panic. But hidden none the less.

Skepticism over vaccines was later, and mainly driven by the extreme quickness of the vaccine approvals. 

Quote

That wasn't globally the case. Covid and medical consensus is. 

Do you have some kind of resource to show that?

Quote

And it's not quite correct. Medical professionals proved there's no actual physical attribute that can be identified as a "gay gene". It was Freudian psychoanalysts and psychiatrists who create that myth.

A couple years ago, when I routinely started that IMHO being gay wasnt genetic, many laughed me down, saying that it was.

I thought it was a choice, if a subconscious choice in some, and they should just own it.

Goes directly back to what I said that the current opinion isnt always the best (reality) opinion.

Quote

It's a dark cloud of horrid conspiracy that tries hard to bury the real truth. I can only view the lab leak idea in contempt. It's a tool used to dumb people down. And I find that abhorrent.

Well, its not over yet. Many are still looking into the origins of COVID-19. Here are some update links.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/30/us-right-to-know-covid-lab-leak-00155011

https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/the-lie-the-century-the-origin-covid-19

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/ralph-baric-wuhan-lab-leak

Here's one from Down Under...

https://www.newsweek.com/covid-lab-leak-theory-resurfaces-controversial-study-1877997

https://www.science.org/content/article/cia-bribed-its-own-covid-19-origin-team-reject-lab-leak-theory-anonymous-whistleblower

There's a new article nearly every week.

Quote

No. 

There just isn't. People parading ad medical professionals don't count. 

People who actually worked on the vaccine aren't in the rabble rousers. 

I wasnt on about the vaccines on this point, but the initial response. Theres ongoing investigations into whontold whom what, and when.

 

Quote

When we did learn just how serious it was, Fauci conveyed that. Trump did not. He continued to downplay it at the cost of around 140,000 lives. He should be held accountable as president but won't be because he cons many of the American people easily.

I'd hold both accountable. Fauci was directly giving advise that led to Trump's actions in the first months. Regardless that Fauci changed his mind later, he let the virus in and told people it was mild.

Quote

Really, who cares? Like that's actually an issue?

You did. You challeged that the number was determined arbitrarily. 

Quote

Only the SARS 19. SARS 1 & 2 provided the framework as I noted earlier.

Ok. Thanks. 

Quote

This is where stupid steps in.

Isnt that what i said?

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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Only the truth is the truth. Conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories. 

I've seen some really dumb memes insinuating that conspiracies over things like Covid are true. They aren't but people want to believe they are and say they are .

As in all science... Until proven otherwise. 

Ive seen several "scientific" things declared as truth... As with the "gay gene". Which turned out to not be true.

Quote

That's where conspiracy theories go though. That's how conspiracy theory nutters come to believe they are vindicated.

Ah, but if followed to an end, the CT believer will fall back on faith, despite facts. And as such theyre not strictly a truther anymore, but a zealot.

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Posted (edited)

Trump Media's accounting firm has been charged with massive fraud. 

Trump Media’s accounting firm charged with ‘massive fraud’ (msn.com)

BF Borgers, Trump Media & Technology Group’s independent accounting firm, was charged by the Securities and Exchange Commission on Friday with widespread fraud and accused of operating a “sham audit mill.”

The SEC made no allegation of wrongdoing against Truth Social owner Trump Media (DJT), which is not mentioned in the charges from the regulator.

The SEC imposed a severe penalty against BF Borgers, permanently suspending the firm from practicing as accountants before the agency effective immediately. The firm and its owner, Benjamin Borgers, also agreed to pay $14 million collectively in fines.

Edited by susieice
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