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‘Out of Small Beginnings’ – the True History of the Pilgrim Fathers and Our Founding Myth


el midgetron
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3 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

This is a point that I never really got.

It's definitely a tragedy and horrible thing for a ton of diseases to kill people. But it wasent really avoidable.

Like there were no vaccines. The only way to avoid the spread of disease would be for parts of the world to remain isolated from each other indefinitely.

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3 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

This is a point that I never really got.

It's definitely a tragedy and horrible thing for a ton of diseases to kill people. But it wasent really avoidable.

Like there were no vaccines. The only way to avoid the spread of disease would be for parts of the world to remain isolated from each other indefinitely.

I agree that no one could have known. But we do now, and remembering those who died should also be remembered at thanks giving. Also to remember the evil people that rejoiced that their god cleared the way for them by killing off the aboriginal peoples.

If wasn't for the aboriginals, the pilgrims would likely have starved to death.

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2 hours ago, el midgetron said:

 

I already explain it. Some people believe the Pilgrims were villains. Just like the article addresses. Unless you have something to contribute beyond grilling me about the “point” which has been explained to you twice now on top of the article, then I’m done entertaining your non-discussion. 

Ah very well then. I see reading comprehension is a challenge for you. I get it.

No worries, I won't "grill" you anymore. On this topic at least. Stay passive my friend.:tu:

Edited by Trelane
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1 hour ago, Occupational Hubris said:

I'm talking about some of them, yes. And their children. And how they only cared about thier own religious freedom and their desire to remove everyone elses.

I don't give two ****s about thanksgiving 

Can you share citations to what you are referring to?

The problem with your take on this is you don’t understand or maybe don’t agree with the virtue in the relationship of mutual respect between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag. Even if it didn’t last a generation, that spirit is worth recognizing. Despite that being the spirit that is commemorated in the Thanksgiving tradition, you find issue beyond that to reject it wholesale.

If that’s you position, do you also condemn the Indians for attacking the Pilgrims who at least at the time were fleeing persecution and open to peaceful relations with the people they encountered? Before the Pilgrims even showed up the Wampanoag were being slaughtered by Indians. Why is it the Europeans you are taking issue with? Are you holding Indians to a lesser standard that Europeans? 

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3 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

Can you share citations to what you are referring to?

The problem with your take on this is you don’t understand or maybe don’t agree with the virtue in the relationship of mutual respect between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag. Even if it didn’t last a generation, that spirit is worth recognizing. Despite that being the spirit that is commemorated in the Thanksgiving tradition, you find issue beyond that to reject it wholesale.

If that’s you position, do you also condemn the Indians for attacking the Pilgrims who at least at the time were fleeing persecution and open to peaceful relations with the people they encountered? Before the Pilgrims even showed up the Wampanoag were being slaughtered by Indians. Why is it the Europeans you are taking issue with? Are you holding Indians to a lesser standard that Europeans? 

We're not talking about the native populations. You specificly brought up the pligrims and seem to think that their traveling to america is some grand event to be idealized in a pathetic holiday beacuse breitbart told you so.

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6 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

Can you share citations to what you are referring to?

The problem with your take on this is you don’t understand or maybe don’t agree with the virtue in the relationship of mutual respect between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag. Even if it didn’t last a generation, that spirit is worth recognizing. Despite that being the spirit that is commemorated in the Thanksgiving tradition, you find issue beyond that to reject it wholesale.

If that’s you position, do you also condemn the Indians for attacking the Pilgrims who at least at the time were fleeing persecution and open to peaceful relations with the people they encountered? Before the Pilgrims even showed up the Wampanoag were being slaughtered by Indians. Why is it the Europeans you are taking issue with? Are you holding Indians to a lesser standard that Europeans? 

Ahhhh, there it is! I knew you had it in you.

Bravo Midgie, bravo.

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8 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

I agree that no one could have known. But we do now, and remembering those who died should also be remembered at thanks giving. Also to remember the evil people that rejoiced that their god cleared the way for them by killing off the aboriginal peoples.

If wasn't for the aboriginals, the pilgrims would likely have starved to death.

That’s absolutely true. And if it wasn’t for the pilgrims the Wampanoag might have been wiped out by other Indians.

I think to often “people” are judged as groups rather than as individuals. The story of Thanksgiving gives us an example of good people cooperating together. 

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2 minutes ago, Occupational Hubris said:

We're not talking about the native populations. You specificly brought up the pligrims and seem to think that their traveling to america is some grand event to be idealized in a pathetic holiday beacuse breitbart told you so.

Do you hold Indians to a lesser standard than Europeans? 

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Just now, el midgetron said:

Do you hold Indians to a lesser standard than Europeans? 

I'd ask in what regard, but that question has zero to do with your OP and you're likley trying to make some lame political point. 

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2 minutes ago, Trelane said:

Ahhhh, there it is! I knew you had it in you.

Bravo Midgie, bravo.

Ahhh “there it is”….. as if your grievance wasn’t obvious hours ago. But now here it is, what you were pretending to not be getting at since your first post. So spill it. 

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5 minutes ago, Occupational Hubris said:

I'd ask in what regard, but that question has zero to do with your OP and you're likley trying to make some lame political point. 

I offered an article that defended the virtue behind the Thanksgiving tradition. It’s you who have come here trying to make some lame political point. So far you haven’t backed your claims up or offered to detail your position beyond any cursory remarks.

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1 minute ago, el midgetron said:

Ahhh “there it is”….. as if your grievance wasn’t obvious hours ago. But now here it is, what you were pretending to not be getting at since your first post. So spill it. 

Again, no grievance at all. it does make me wonder if you even know the definition of that word. 

Anyway, I was simply curious. You've provided me with the information I had suspected. All I needed was confirmation about it. Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving!

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1 minute ago, Trelane said:

Again, no grievance at all. it does make me wonder if you even know the definition of that word. 

Anyway, I was simply curious. You've provided me with the information I had suspected. All I needed was confirmation about it. Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving!

So, in other words you are going to accuse me of something without even making the accusation? Even though it was clear your intent was accusatory from the beginning? “What’s your point?”
 

You are like “oh no I don’t have a grievance”……”oh so it is what I suspect was true all along”……”but I don’t have a grievance”…

If you are done, have a nice Thanksgiving. If you have something else to say stop hinting at it and playing games. 

 

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Just now, el midgetron said:

So, in other words you are going to accuse me of something without even making the accusation? Even though it was clear your intent was accusatory from the beginning? “What’s your point?”
 

You are like “oh no I don’t have a grievance”……”oh so it is what I suspect was true all along”……”but I don’t have a grievance”…

If you are done, have a nice Thanksgiving. If you have something else to say stop hinting at it and playing games. 

 

Midgie, you're affixing tone and intent to a typed response. That's not a great way to begin. I'm certainly not playing any games. You're becoming defensive about my questions, which were very clear. It's not as nefarious as you're attempting to make it. 

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15 minutes ago, Occupational Hubris said:

I'd ask in what regard, but that question has zero to do with your OP and you're likley trying to make some lame political point. 

If you want a regard, how about to the same regard to which you hold the decedents of the pilgrims? To not instill upon them and allow them religious freedom? Certainly, that standard is violated by the hostility they experienced from other Indians? 

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This thread is laughable and lacking in any point whatsoever 

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20 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

So, in other words you are going to accuse me of something without even making the accusation? Even though it was clear your intent was accusatory from the beginning? “What’s your point?”
 

You are like “oh no I don’t have a grievance”……”oh so it is what I suspect was true all along”……”but I don’t have a grievance”…

If you are done, have a nice Thanksgiving. If you have something else to say stop hinting at it and playing games. 

 

I have said this many times in many other threads, so here is another observation! I don’t understand why you must always introduce your political agenda into every thread you enter. It seems especially redundant and ridiculous to do so on Thanksgiving, after reading the comments in this thread it also seems you enjoy the negative attention it has brought you fir doing it.

While I can only speak for myself I am a bit surprised that even you would approach Thanksgiving in this manner. Holidays are a time most people want to unwind and enjoy the day with family and friends, but it’s obvious you have a different view on the subject. It appears that everyday is a good day for applying a political spin to any subject, well it appears no one seems to agree with your political spin of the Thanksgiving Holiday.

I have no idea what you circumstances are, yet if I must guess it appears your lonely. Well, all I can say is I hope your day gets better and Happy Thanksgiving to you.:)

Edited by Grim Reaper 6
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11 minutes ago, Occupational Hubris said:

This thread is laughable and lacking in any point whatsoever 

You guys did well to get through the link. I gave up after a couple paragraphs of left this and left that. It's political alright. Masquerading as history.

It's Breitbart. We shouldn't be surprised really. It's a political rag.

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So here’s a point for anyone who cares to discuss this topic. The image is the Pilgrims being villains is an unjust tragedy. These kinds of traditions, like Thanksgiving, can be very beneficial to society, all of society. But there are people who reject it because the pilgrims and in a larger sense Europeans are their “villains” in this story. But the criteria by which Europeans are judged villains is never used to also judge the Indians. And I welcome people who see the pilgrims as villains to explain their views beyond cursory remarks, 

Neither group should be judged in such a way and the Thanksgiving tradition gives our society a “myth” which rejected the very premise of judging people by their group. The Thanksgiving tradition doesn’t just show an example of Europeans who established a peaceful relationship with with the Indians, it also gives us an example of Indians who were peaceful and rejected judging Europeans as a group. Like the article related, Squanto had every reason to hate Europeans but he didn’t judge the Pilgrims based on the actions of other Europeans, That’s the spirit that I feel is lost by vilifying the either the Europeans or the Indians by group, especially in relation to the Thanksgiving tradition. 

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As a non-American, I think it's interesting to learn about other traditions and cultures. I don't know much about Thanksgiving, it's just not big on our Aussie calendar of festivities. However, I sometimes stumble across articles about these holidays, and maybe my experiences are representative of Aussies generally, or maybe it's not, but my experience is that when Thanksgiving is spoken about here in Australia, it's generally done in the context of making the pilgrims out to be vicious colonists trampling over the native people who were just trying to live in peace. 

I have never heard the right wing version of the story tying it to socialism or any such, but I am well aware of the colonial arguments for Thanksgiving. I didn't read the whole article in the OP, but it is not uncommon for me to see arguments that the pilgrims were vicious colonists enacting their brand of white supremacy onto the poor natives. I've seen elements of that viewpoint argued within some posts in this thread.  

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1 hour ago, el midgetron said:

So here’s a point for anyone who cares to discuss this topic. The image is the Pilgrims being villains is an unjust tragedy. These kinds of traditions, like Thanksgiving, can be very beneficial to society, all of society. But there are people who reject it because the pilgrims and in a larger sense Europeans are their “villains” in this story. But the criteria by which Europeans are judged villains is never used to also judge the Indians. And I welcome people who see the pilgrims as villains to explain their views beyond cursory remarks, 

Neither group should be judged in such a way and the Thanksgiving tradition gives our society a “myth” which rejected the very premise of judging people by their group. The Thanksgiving tradition doesn’t just show an example of Europeans who established a peaceful relationship with with the Indians, it also gives us an example of Indians who were peaceful and rejected judging Europeans as a group. Like the article related, Squanto had every reason to hate Europeans but he didn’t judge the Pilgrims based on the actions of other Europeans, That’s the spirit that I feel is lost by vilifying the either the Europeans or the Indians by group, especially in relation to the Thanksgiving tradition. 

You're just throwing out loose accusations though. This is why posters are complaining. You suck at starting threads. 

As far as I can tell, the Thanksgiving event isn't seen in a bad light, whilst it's a patchy sketch work of what probably happened, I haven't heard that it was a dubious event. I'm a long way from America, if you have other information please share it. 

What you're speaking about is a much wider context isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the grievances more about land grabs? The London Company made the decision on where pilgrims would settle without much thought for the current inhabitants. The pilgrims as allegedly religious as they were didn't consider current inhabitants beyond a threat.

Which is pretty much the story of settlement across the globe. Natives are never happy about new people taking over their lands. Huge wars ensure and grudges held over hundreds of years. Lots of people usually end up dead in the early parts, mostly natives. 

Which is exactly why this is significant is it not? An unexpected and unusual event in good faith where multiculturalism shines brightest. Expected enemies end up amicable. A great story, very motivating and heartwarming. 

Your political obsession seems very unhealthy. Buy a push bike and get out this weekend and get some fresh air. Enjoy your Thanksgiving.

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16 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

As a non-American, I think it's interesting to learn about other traditions and cultures. I don't know much about Thanksgiving, it's just not big on our Aussie calendar of festivities. However, I sometimes stumble across articles about these holidays, and maybe my experiences are representative of Aussies generally, or maybe it's not, but my experience is that when Thanksgiving is spoken about here in Australia, it's generally done in the context of making the pilgrims out to be vicious colonists trampling over the native people who were just trying to live in peace. 

I have never heard the right wing version of the story tying it to socialism or any such, but I am well aware of the colonial arguments for Thanksgiving. I didn't read the whole article in the OP, but it is not uncommon for me to see arguments that the pilgrims were vicious colonists enacting their brand of white supremacy onto the poor natives. I've seen elements of that viewpoint argued within some posts in this thread.  

I don't know what suburb you live in but your experiences often differ from the other Aussie posters in general I find.

I've not once heard that in my life. Ever. As you say it's rarely discussed here. In passing mostly. As such I don't know what misanthropic group extends on a non subject to take a perspective of judgement over another country's public holiday. That seems incredibly petty as it's not even our holiday. We've got our own ****e show with the invasion day stuff. 

Thanksgiving is about feasting, mainly on turkey and celebrated a feast as far as I know. 

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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

I don't know what suburb you live in but your experiences often differ from the other Aussie posters in general I find.

I've not once heard that in my life. Ever. As you say it's rarely discussed here. In passing mostly. As such I don't know what misanthropic group extends on a non subject to take a perspective of judgement over another country's public holiday. That seems incredibly petty as it's not even our holiday. We've got our own ****e show with the invasion day stuff. 

Thanksgiving is about feasting, mainly on turkey and celebrated a feast as far as I know. 

There are half a dozen posts within this thread that make this point. You refer to it in your earlier post to Tiny Ron about a "wider context", but from where I sit, seeing this wider context is akin to Grinches at Christmas who might respond to "Merry Christmas, peace and good will to all" by saying "people killing in the name of god and reaping through the centuries bringing death and disease and colonisation to the world".... 

 

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34 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

There are half a dozen posts within this thread that make this point. You refer to it in your earlier post to Tiny Ron about a "wider context", but from where I sit, seeing this wider context is akin to Grinches at Christmas who might respond to "Merry Christmas, peace and good will to all" by saying "people killing in the name of god and reaping through the centuries bringing death and disease and colonisation to the world".... 

Let's try this again.

The wider context I referred to was the real argument. Midges broad non posts aren't actually discussing the grievance, he's just winding others up. 

2 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

but my experience is that when Thanksgiving is spoken about here in Australia, it's generally done in the context of making the pilgrims out to be vicious colonists trampling over the native people who were just trying to live in peace. 

The comments made in this thread that you are referring to aren't made by Australians. 

That's why I bolded it initially. And I referenced Australian's. 

They refer to a wider view as well. A lot of the land settled by those pilgrims had already been devastated by disease, and the current inhabitants a fraction of what they were before pilgrims arrived.

That's the flame baiting I'm referring to. By using a frowned upon source (by the majority of posters) and leaving a half baked sentence dropping the pilgrims in just deep enough to get a response. His tactics worked. 

Pilgrims haven't been demonised as far as I've heard. They have been accused of looking the other way to appropriate land from natives via The London Company. If anyone is to be considered the demon, it's The London Company. The pilgrims are more frowned upon for portraying loving Christians when they looked the other way to get land in order to better establish their religion. 

As I say, I've not ever heard pilgrims demonized. Considering you started out by saying you know very little about the tradition, it's more than curious as to how you skip the entire story and get straight to controversy which doesn't even seem to actually be a controversy. The actual message is one of multiculturalism success. 

It's a wind up thread. What else would one expect considering the source? 

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