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Failed expectations of Revelations


cormac mac airt
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Based on the thread title and description where does Christianity go from here? 
 

cormac

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5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Based on the thread title and description where does Christianity go from here? 
 

cormac

Nowhere new.   I know you want to engage in a discussion with christians so my input is really useless, sorry, but the title of the OP hit me funny.

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Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Nowhere new.   I know you want to engage in a discussion with christians so my input is really useless, sorry, but the title of the OP hit me funny.

All input is welcome, Christian and non-Christian alike as I really think it deserves an answer. 

cormac

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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

It becomes a form of spirituality and forsakes the doom and gloom.

But considering the last 3000 years is that a reasonable expectation do you think? 
 

BTW I’d agree with you, that would be the better outcome. 
 

cormac

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2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

But considering the last 3000 years is that a reasonable expectation do you think? 
 

BTW I’d agree with you, that would be the better outcome. 
 

cormac

I think holding on to something for 3000 years is a fools game. The worst part is the potential for some type of self-fulfilling prophecy. 

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Just now, XenoFish said:

I think holding on to something for 3000 years is a fools game. The worst part is the potential for some type of self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Again I’d agree with you. A greater question IMO is “can” Christianity get past the ultimate failure of Revelations non-occurrence as written or is your mentioned self-fulfilling prophecy inevitable? 
 

cormac

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Just now, cormac mac airt said:

Again I’d agree with you. A greater question IMO is “can” Christianity get past the ultimate failure of Revelations non-occurrence as written or is your mentioned self-fulfilling prophecy inevitable? 
 

cormac

That really depends on the church, or maybe the believers. Perhaps another branch of Christianity might pop up. One that's focused on the core tenets and not fire and brimstone. 

I honestly can't give a good answer. 

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5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I think holding on to something for 3000 years is a fools game. The worst part is the potential for some type of self-fulfilling prophecy. 

There was a television show about that called DIG.  It was on the USA network.   3 different factions were trying to bring about their version of Revelations for 3 different reasons.   I agree the potential for some type of attempt at self fulfilling their idea of any prophecy is there.

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5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Again I’d agree with you. A greater question IMO is “can” Christianity get past the ultimate failure of Revelations non-occurrence as written or is your mentioned self-fulfilling prophecy inevitable? 
 

cormac

That is an interesting question.  I think a lot of Christians can and do get past the prophecy with the idea that there is no use trying to guess when anything will happen as it is up to god to determine that, but there are fringe groups that cling to that as prophecy, and they could be dangerous with their insane insistence that they are the only ones worthy and knowing.

I was taught as a child a verse (maybe in the bible, haven't looked for it) about only god knows when something will happen like revelations and we cannot second guess god.   Which was to say, don't fret, just live your life the best you can and know that what ever god has in mind you have no control over.

I am not a christian now and consider the whole thing a manufactured structure to control large numbers of poeple, christianity specifically designed by the Romans to keep and expand their empire.

Edited by Desertrat56
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32 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Based on the thread title and description where does Christianity go from here? 
 

cormac

Hi Cormac

It really won’t change anything because not all Christians accept revelations to start with and are moderate. Those that have more extreme religious positions will still blindly cling to it no matter what is said or shown to be factual.  There is also the cherry pickers of religious ideologies that claim to be Christian that are not members of any structured religious organizations who just pick the bits they like. It’s been 2000 years now so don’t personally expect to see any significant changes in the future

Edited by jmccr8
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9 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

That is an interesting question.  I think a lot of Christians can and do get past the prophecy with the idea that there is no use trying to guess when anything will happen as it is up to god to determine that, but there are fringe groups that cling to that as prophecy, and they could be dangerous with their insane insistence that they are the only ones worthy and knowing.

I was taught as a child a verse (maybe in the bible, haven't looked for it) about only god knows when something will happen like revelations and we cannot second guess god.   Which was to say, don't fret, just live your life the best you can and know that what ever god has in mind you have no control over.

I am not a christian now and consider the whole thing a manufactured structure to control large numbers of poeple, christianity specifically designed by the Romans to keep and expand their empire.

I would disagree with you slightly as I believe Paul co-opted Jesus name and memories of his early teachings to promote Paul’s own agenda regarding this new take on Judaism. Something which IIRC set him at odds initially with the Apostle Peter, but soon became something that neither would completely recognize as any form of Judaism at its core. 
 

cormac

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44 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Based on the thread title and description where does Christianity go from here? 
 

cormac

In my opinion it is best to ignore anything that is Jewish in the Bible.

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Just now, Ell said:

In my opinion it is best to ignore anything that is Jewish in the Bible.

That would be rather difficult if not impossible since the core tenets of Christianity at its start were Jewish in origin. It would be akin to giving Christianity a lobotomy IMO. 
 

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19 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cormac

It really won’t change anything because not all Christians accept revelations to start with and are moderate. Those that have more extreme religious positions will still blindly cling to it no matter what is said or shown to be factual.  There is also the cherry pickers of religious ideologies that claim to be Christian that are not members of any structured religious organizations who just pick the bits they like. It’s been 2000 years now so don’t personally expect to see any significant changes in the future

Do you think then that Christianity will collapse under its own weight? 
 

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1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

I would disagree with you slightly as I believe Paul co-opted Jesus name and memories of his early teachings to promote Paul’s own agenda regarding this new take on Judaism. Something which IIRC set him at odds initially with the Apostle Peter, but soon became something that neither would completely recognize as any form of Judaism at its core. 
 

cormac

I am not understanding what you disagree with, I think Paul was made up.  For one thing, the story of a roman soldier who heard about Jesus and decided to change the first letter of his name and become a christian is ridiculous.   I have read many of his "books" in the bible because that is what baptists focused on and for one thing, those books were not all written by the same person, and for another they had nothing real to do with Jesus or anything else in the bible except for setting misogynistic rules.   And I was told that a lot of those "letters" were written when he was in one jail or another, so he couldn't even follow the law of the land, which was also something we were told was what Jesus preached.   I knew a lot better how to find stuff in the bible when I was young as we were drilled on it by my aunt, but now most of it is memory or if I feel like it, I look it up (not very often).  The biggest problem I have with the different books supposedly quoting Jesus, is that they were not written when Jesus was alive.  

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7 minutes ago, Ell said:

In my opinion it is best to ignore anything that is Jewish in the Bible.

Where do you think the romans got the parts they didn't make up?   From the judaic texts.   :lol:

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3 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Do you think then that Christianity will collapse under its own weight? 
 

cormac

I know you are asking jmccr8, but my opinion of the answer to that question is that it already has.  It just looks like more and more christian sects pop up every day.  I think that is like a collapse, but more of a shattering or splintering with a good example being what @Ell posted.  

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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

I know you are asking jmccr8, but my opinion of the answer to that question is that it already has.  It just looks like more and more christian sects pop up every day.  I think that is like a collapse, but more of a shattering or splintering with a good example being what @Ell posted.  

Splintering yes but collapse, not really, as Christianity is STILL the largest religion on earth. 
 

As to your take on Paul earlier I don’t see him as made up since, as opposed to Jesus,  there were many, MANY contemporary peoples he interacted with. Now as to how many texts he’s responsible for that’s a matter of debate but scholars suggest he DID write some of them. 
 

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33 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

and forsakes the doom and gloom.

Those who see the book of Revelation as "doom and gloom", do not understand it at all.  Put another way, I'd ask if you see mankind's efforts up 'til now as the basis for real hope of a brighter future?  I think too often, people conflate the progress of our science and technology with advancements of the race in general.  Yes, we stand on the threshold of advancements in our tech that most cannot even imagine but we also find ourselves - our species - being reminded in real time that one man's ego has the capacity to spark a conflagration that could literally END our current civilization.

No doubt I'll be mocked for that statement but it is the reality nonetheless.  One man, hungry for power over others and with ambitions of holding some place of historical imminence, could trigger a set of circumstances that could raze all of our "progress" in a span of hours or days.  That book delineates a future that at the time of its writing could not have been possible except by "magic".  Today it could easily happen and those who would deny its reality could lay it to "normal" advances in knowledge, or some fuzzy concept of "self-fulfilling" predictions.  They never seem to be able to document how that could be done.

The book of the Apocalypse, the "unveiling" of the Person of Jesus Christ to humanity, is actually a book of hope that a day will come when the horrors of human pride, greed, and lusts will finally be exorcized from our world.  I think the real question for those who see it as a foreboding, gloomy set of predictions is "compared to WHAT?"  We are living at a time when nearly every indicator is pointing to the red and a kind of insanity is spreading in the world.  This is happening in concert with the highest level of knowledge and technological advancements this species has ever known.  Today, RIGHT NOW, if our egos and lust for domination could be set aside, we could already be living in a world without hunger or war.

The greatest irony of this OP is that it doesn't lay the responsibility for our woes on their true causes.  It rather seeks to discuss how a book of predictions has failed those who believe in it.  It's as though those who do not and never have believed in it, now want to judge those who DO, simply because the timing doesn't suit the non-believer.  As non-believers, I've often wondered why it matters enough to desire to discuss it at all.  It's almost as if they have a need to prove their superiority of intellect or possibly, to convince themselves they cannot be mistaken.

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13 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Do you think then that Christianity will collapse under its own weight? 
 

cormac

Hi Cormac

Not really as there are so many sects of Christianity so would be more inclined to think that it will evolve to survive. It is a system of financial institutions that would just rebrand its public image.

For those Christians (claimed) that are not part of organized Christian religions who reject the OT and many parts of the NT that just like the imagery of Jesus nothing will change from what I see and in future see more claimed Christians than actual Christians.

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IMO. Spirituality, what I define as the desire by individuals to integrate themselves into the universe may have been a human characteristic for 20,000-40,000 years.  Religions seem to arise to fill the needs of harnessing that personal spirituality to a society.   They can unify a group, put boundaries around a group, provide a group with identification, and aid in the establishment of authority and control.  Religions change over time with societies, and as they spread or have to incorporate different world views. I don't think St. Francis would necessarily see eye to eye with the Pope and College of Cardinals about the true meaning of Christianity.

Those tenants that deeply align with human sensibilities about how people desire to be treated and how they believe they should treat others are common to many religions besides Christianity.  Those beliefs may outlast  the trappings of Christianity that had their roots in Middle Eastern mud brick cities ruled by god kings and priests.  I don't think spirituality is in danger of disappearing any time soon, but a religious structure based on a society or world views that have become dated is going to evolve to survive or fade away.

3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

so would be more inclined to think that it will evolve to survive.

I was in the middle of checking my response when yours was posted, but I went ahead and posted as I had written it.  I echo your thought.

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11 minutes ago, and-then said:

Those who see the book of Revelation as "doom and gloom", do not understand it at all.  Put another way, I'd ask if you see mankind's efforts up 'til now as the basis for real hope of a brighter future?  I think too often, people conflate the progress of our science and technology with advancements of the race in general.  Yes, we stand on the threshold of advancements in our tech that most cannot even imagine but we also find ourselves - our species - being reminded in real time that one man's ego has the capacity to spark a conflagration that could literally END our current civilization.

No doubt I'll be mocked for that statement but it is the reality nonetheless.  One man, hungry for power over others and with ambitions of holding some place of historical imminence, could trigger a set of circumstances that could raze all of our "progress" in a span of hours or days.  That book delineates a future that at the time of its writing could not have been possible except by "magic".  Today it could easily happen and those who would deny its reality could lay it to "normal" advances in knowledge, or some fuzzy concept of "self-fulfilling" predictions.  They never seem to be able to document how that could be done.

The book of the Apocalypse, the "unveiling" of the Person of Jesus Christ to humanity, is actually a book of hope that a day will come when the horrors of human pride, greed, and lusts will finally be exorcized from our world.  I think the real question for those who see it as a foreboding, gloomy set of predictions is "compared to WHAT?"  We are living at a time when nearly every indicator is pointing to the red and a kind of insanity is spreading in the world.  This is happening in concert with the highest level of knowledge and technological advancements this species has ever known.  Today, RIGHT NOW, if our egos and lust for domination could be set aside, we could already be living in a world without hunger or war.

The greatest irony of this OP is that it doesn't lay the responsibility for our woes on their true causes.  It rather seeks to discuss how a book of predictions has failed those who believe in it.  It's as though those who do not and never have believed in it, now want to judge those who DO, simply because the timing doesn't suit the non-believer.  As non-believers, I've often wondered why it matters enough to desire to discuss it at all.  It's almost as if they have a need to prove their superiority of intellect or possibly, to convince themselves they cannot be mistaken.

It's folks like you who'll work day and night just to make your hellish fever dream a reality. Those like yourself like the idea because you think you'll be spared whatever nightmare that supposed to occur. Just because you've chosen to believe in some imaginary demi-god. I think it is the highly egotistical to think oneself important to a god. 

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52 minutes ago, and-then said:

Those who see the book of Revelation as "doom and gloom", do not understand it at all.  Put another way, I'd ask if you see mankind's efforts up 'til now as the basis for real hope of a brighter future?  I think too often, people conflate the progress of our science and technology with advancements of the race in general.  Yes, we stand on the threshold of advancements in our tech that most cannot even imagine but we also find ourselves - our species - being reminded in real time that one man's ego has the capacity to spark a conflagration that could literally END our current civilization.

No doubt I'll be mocked for that statement but it is the reality nonetheless.  One man, hungry for power over others and with ambitions of holding some place of historical imminence, could trigger a set of circumstances that could raze all of our "progress" in a span of hours or days.  That book delineates a future that at the time of its writing could not have been possible except by "magic".  Today it could easily happen and those who would deny its reality could lay it to "normal" advances in knowledge, or some fuzzy concept of "self-fulfilling" predictions.  They never seem to be able to document how that could be done.

The book of the Apocalypse, the "unveiling" of the Person of Jesus Christ to humanity, is actually a book of hope that a day will come when the horrors of human pride, greed, and lusts will finally be exorcized from our world.  I think the real question for those who see it as a foreboding, gloomy set of predictions is "compared to WHAT?"  We are living at a time when nearly every indicator is pointing to the red and a kind of insanity is spreading in the world.  This is happening in concert with the highest level of knowledge and technological advancements this species has ever known.  Today, RIGHT NOW, if our egos and lust for domination could be set aside, we could already be living in a world without hunger or war.

The greatest irony of this OP is that it doesn't lay the responsibility for our woes on their true causes.  It rather seeks to discuss how a book of predictions has failed those who believe in it.  It's as though those who do not and never have believed in it, now want to judge those who DO, simply because the timing doesn't suit the non-believer.  As non-believers, I've often wondered why it matters enough to desire to discuss it at all.  It's almost as if they have a need to prove their superiority of intellect or possibly, to convince themselves they cannot be mistaken.

And you would be wrong. I was born and raised amongst the Protestant and Southern Baptist faiths and very much DID believe in Revelations in my youth. That changed as I started questioning things and doing my own research. This thread has NOTHING to do with the causes of our human woes, it simply questions whether there is a way ahead for Christianity since it’s end-all/be-all book of Revelations has failed to deliver what is effectively its “final answer”. 
 

cormac 

Edited by cormac mac airt
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1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

Again I’d agree with you. A greater question IMO is “can” Christianity get past the ultimate failure of Revelations non-occurrence as written or is your mentioned self-fulfilling prophecy inevitable? 

I'd say sure it can get past that, faith disposes of the necessity of having an actual basis for a belief, and although that in itself is a logical reason for others to treat it with disregard it does have the benefit of being impervious.  "A day is like a thousand years to God", "mystery of faith", "we shouldn't think we can comprehend God at all", etcetera.

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