New York City to Remove Mentally Ill People From Streets Against Their Will

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, Gromdor said:

I imagine stuff like paying back ther student loans, malpractice insurance, and the like all factor in.  But honestly I believe we are just simply overpriced to ensure a maximum profit for the healthcare industry.

Healthcare is an industry, just like all others.  The biggest difference is the workers need a skill set that requires relatively lengthy education efforts and certifications.  When I graduated from a Radiologic technology program after two years of classes and OJT, I was making 16 bucks an hour ('94).  These days the same job pays around 24$ or so.  The problem with demanding that government step in to limit such pay levels is that eventually, the standard of care WILL be degraded so far that patient care will be secondary and will be done by people who should never be dealing with patients.

I think we're on our way down that road already and there will be no turning back until the Boomers die off.

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Those, Them, They.  I wish they would come here.  We need workers in my state.  But I imagine the conservatives here would forever treat them as "Those, Them, They"s as well.

Save it.  I live in a community that has welcomed migrant farm workers for a couple of generations.  We have MANY Hispanic residents who came to pick crops, stayed and had families and most of them are now 2nd or 3rd generation.  I've never seen any kind of widespread anger or hate toward these folks.  They're just our neighbors.  But THAT isn't what your party is doing these days, is it?  It's a straight up lie to say Biden's crew haven't thrown open the border and allowed a limitless influx. The rate is sustained at 2+ million unvetted migrants per year.  

The DHS folks are telling the truth about it and those here who are willing to ignore it so they can feel virtuous or, more likely, to slam their political opposites are going to someday be responsible for a terror attack that will DWARF 9-11.  We've managed to arrest over 100 people on known terror lists so far at that border.  At the rate these people are flooding in, there could be battalions of trained terrorists taking up residence all over the country.  I sincerely hope that those who support this influx are also the ones who pay in pain when such an attack comes.  They will DESERVE IT.

[the13bats]

The idea is great give the same care and compassion to a fellow human we give to a stray animal.

If a person can not care for themselves then waiting for them to die on the street isnt the answer, i imagine a lot of very mentally ill folks will deny they are and refuse help even though they do need it leaving them to their own devices is sticking our heads in the sand.

Fact is imnsho we should help all of our homeless very few want to be homeless and the ones who do many do have mental issues like drug and or alcohol addictions that they have given up on themselves.

As far as it being a political tool i hope not and its riduculous biased and racist to bray that the homeless problem is either the fault of immigrants or sleepy joe. But we know who to expect that from.

[Occupational Hubris]

1 hour ago, and-then said:

Save it.  I live in a community that has welcomed migrant farm workers for a couple of generations.  We have MANY Hispanic residents who came to pick crops, stayed and had families and most of them are now 2nd or 3rd generation.  I've never seen any kind of widespread anger or hate toward these folks.  They're just our neighbors.  But THAT isn't what your party is doing these days, is it?  It's a straight up lie to say Biden's crew haven't thrown open the border and allowed a limitless influx. The rate is sustained at 2+ million unvetted migrants per year.  

"I can't possibly hate immigrants. I totally have immigrant neighboors that i allow to be in my presense"

[Edumakated]

Forcibly institutionalizing some of the homeless is the only way to solve the chronic homeless problem.  The reality is the vast majority of homeless are on the streets because they are a small fry short of a happy meal or so addicted to drugs they can't function in society.  No amount of affordable housing or a booming economy will get them off the streets.

For too long, a big part of the homeless problem, particularly in cities run by leftists, is their policies often encourage the homelessness.  I live in a very liberal community outside of Chicago and it is almost like the community activists and politicians want the homeless on our streets.  They are constantly handing out food vouchers, spare change, and all kinds of other services that make it quite pleasant to be homeless here.  As such, they seem to gravitate to our community.  Literally have seen some of the same bums for more than a decade hanging out in our downtown.

[the13bats]

2 minutes ago, Edumakated said:

Forcibly institutionalizing some of the homeless is the only way to solve the chronic homeless problem.  The reality is the vast majority of homeless are on the streets because they are a small fry short of a happy meal or so addicted to drugs they can't function in society.  No amount of affordable housing or a booming economy will get them off the streets.

For too long, a big part of the homeless problem, particularly in cities run by leftists, is their policies often encourage the homelessness.  I live in a very liberal community outside of Chicago and it is almost like the community activists and politicians want the homeless on our streets.  They are constantly handing out food vouchers, spare change, and all kinds of other services that make it quite pleasant to be homeless here.  As such, they seem to gravitate to our community.  Literally have seen some of the same bums for more than a decade hanging out in our downtown.

That sure sounds like a biased opinion based on ignorance so please do post your source for that way of thinking.

[Edumakated]

2 minutes ago, the13bats said:

That sure sounds like a biased opinion based on ignorance so please do post your source for that way of thinking.

No, it is facts.   Pretty sure if you search homelessness and addiction / mental illness you'll bring up plenty of studies.  To be clear, I'm talking chronic homeless....

When looking at the homeless situation, you have to be discerning with how you are defining homeless.  For example, a woman who may have been kicked out of boyfriends apartment and spends a night at a women's shelter may be "homeless" temporarily for a day or two, but that is not the same thing as an extreme heroin addict begging on a corner for the past three years.  Often times, activist lump these two groups together but they have very little in common and much different care needs.

[Raptor Witness]

5 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Oh give me a break, are you making this about illegal aliens?   Have you ever been to south Texas, southern New Mexico, or sothern Arizona?    The homeless people in the area I live are mostly local or from the midwest.   The illegal aliens are not camping under the freeways, they find jobs and some place to live, and if they are trafficked they live 20 to a room with a coyote getting them jobs and taking their money.   

AND every state has different welfare laws and I will tell you, if you don't have an id or an address you don't get welfare, so your sillyness about illegals getting welfare the minute they step into the country is just buill*****t!

Here Hear ….

I recently had an older homeless woman, who I suspect might have been mentally ill, lunge out in front of my vehicle, from an obvious blind spot. She jumped a guard rail on a corner offramp, out of the dense woods, right in front of my vehicle. If I didn’t have new tires and excellent brakes, I think I would’ve hit her. The look that she gave me, scared me a little. She didn’t seem to be on any drugs. It was something else I saw.

The housing crisis where I live, on the Mid-Atlantic is beyond belief. It’s an emergency that isn’t being seriously addressed, and the mentally ill are paying the highest price of all.

At the local Walmart, near where I live, which is fairly close to a homeless encampment; they actually stopped dispensing water to wash your hands in the men’s bathroom, despite an epidemic of flu. I haven’t been able to wash my hands in that Walmart bathroom, for months. It took me a while to figure out why they weren’t fixing it, but when I did, I got on the phone to voice my concerns. It was clear that the local management weren’t going to do anything. They were literally sacrificing the public’s health, to keep these homeless people from bathing in their restrooms. That’s a big reason why I avoid Walmart.

The state of confusion is making a grave miscalculation for making travelers from afar, unwelcome in our midst. @and-then

 

[the13bats]

12 minutes ago, Edumakated said:

No, it is facts.   Pretty sure if you search homelessness and addiction / mental illness you'll bring up plenty of studies.  To be clear, I'm talking chronic homeless....

When looking at the homeless situation, you have to be discerning with how you are defining homeless.  For example, a woman who may have been kicked out of boyfriends apartment and spends a night at a women's shelter may be "homeless" temporarily for a day or two, but that is not the same thing as an extreme heroin addict begging on a corner for the past three years.  Often times, activist lump these two groups together but they have very little in common and much different care needs.

No, its not facts its your biased and so far unsupported opinion thats when you say "pretty sure" you speak volumes.

you posted the claim not my job do your work for you if you dont have a source for your claims im good with them being simply your biased opinions.

[Edumakated]

36 minutes ago, the13bats said:

No, its not facts its your biased and so far unsupported opinion thats when you say "pretty sure" you speak volumes.

you posted the claim not my job do your work for you if you dont have a source for your claims im good with them being simply your biased opinions.

If you are so sure I am wrong, then feel free to post YOUR source to prove it.... I suspect you won't as I am pretty confident in my assertion.  I've lived in large cities long enough and interacted enough with homeless to know it to be true without a study.  Basic common sense and street smarts...

Or are you one of these folks that thinks every homeless person is a Google engineer who just couldn't afford the high rent?

[the13bats]

1 minute ago, Edumakated said:

If you are so sure I am wrong, then feel free to post YOUR source to prove it.... I suspect you won't as I am pretty confident in my assertion.  I've lived in large cities long enough and interacted enough with homeless to know it to be true without a study.  Basic common sense and street smarts...

Or are you one of these folks that thinks every homeless person is a Google engineer who just couldn't afford the high rent?

You really missed the boat huh? Its not my burden to prove anything you made the claim its your burden to back up your claims with proof if all you have is your ego and biased opinions own it.

[Raptor Witness]

What New York is attempting to do, is wise. We owe a debt to the meekest, weakest members of our society.

To be richer and freer, is to be blessed by a Higher Power, with an obligation to assist the less fortunate. Otherwise, we risk the blessings we all have.

We are one people, one Body, or we are divided, and dead.

[Doug1066]

18 hours ago, Michelle said:

Mr. Adams, who has made clearing homeless encampments

We need ways to provide the homeless with homes.  For openers:  jobs that pay enough to afford a home.

Local governments might also provide living quarters and psychiatric help for those with mental problems.  After all, that was the stated objective when Congress defunded mental health programs.

My home county used to have something called the County Home.  It was a huge farmhouse on a rather large farm.  Anyone without a way to afford housing could stay there.   Tenants operated the farm, growing their own food.  Health care was provided.

 

Just throwing the homeless out of their encampments does nothing to solve the problem.  It just moves the problem someplace else.  That is not a solution.

Doug

[+Desertrat56]

15 hours ago, and-then said:

Healthcare is an industry, just like all others.  The biggest difference is the workers need a skill set that requires relatively lengthy education efforts and certifications.  When I graduated from a Radiologic technology program after two years of classes and OJT, I was making 16 bucks an hour ('94).  These days the same job pays around 24$ or so.  The problem with demanding that government step in to limit such pay levels is that eventually, the standard of care WILL be degraded so far that patient care will be secondary and will be done by people who should never be dealing with patients.

I think we're on our way down that road already and there will be no turning back until the Boomers die off.

I don't think limiting pay levels for the professionals was what was intended, more limiting the gouging pharmacuetical companies, other medical suppliers charge, hospital administration waste etc.   You seemed to take what @Gromdor said personally.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Desertrat56

[Myles]

11 hours ago, the13bats said:

No, its not facts its your biased and so far unsupported opinion thats when you say "pretty sure" you speak volumes.

you posted the claim not my job do your work for you if you dont have a source for your claims im good with them being simply your biased opinions.

To be honest, I've seen many studies that show that most (maybe just 51%) of homeless have drug addictions or mental challenges.   

[Edumakated]

46 minutes ago, Myles said:

To be honest, I've seen many studies that show that most (maybe just 51%) of homeless have drug addictions or mental challenges.   

It is higher than that...  

The issue is a lot of these studies group all the homeless together as if they are one like group.  For example, they will consider anyone who may have stayed in a shelter on a temporary basis as homeless just as they will someone who has been living on the street a decade under a bridge.  These are not the same situations.  The first example is a temporary situation, and that person may just be a victim of circumstance (i.e., boyfriend kicks woman out of house).  She still gets a job and quickly finds a place to live.  She may have only been "homeless" two days but they will count them the same as a bum who has been on the street a decade. They probably aren't hooked on drugs.  The problem is when you include these folks with the folks described below it increases the denominator and makes it look like things like addiction and drug use aren't as high.

On the other hand, the heroin addict holding a sign sitting on the corner begging will not find a home under any circumstances because their issue is they are incapable of functioning in society due to their addiction.  They can't hold a job as their only purpose in life at this point is to get high.  Or you get the guy who is clearly crazy.

Cities are struggling dealing with the second group...  they are chronic homeless because they cannot function under any circumstances in society.  No amount of money or affordable housing will get them off the street.  Anyone who has spent any time in a city with a lot of homeless knows they are addicts and have mental issues.  Basic street smarts.  No one needs a "study" to verify what is clearly observable.

Some of the activist groups are now starting to delineate between being temporarily homeless and chronic homeless as it is pretty clear the solutions to the issue are not the same.  It seems the agreed upon definition is if someone has been homeless for at least a year.  

 

[Bed of chaos]

What happens after the involuntary hospitalization and they're set free? Not taking medication (w schizophrenics) is an enormous problem. Many don't always recognize their symptoms. They're also smart enough to play nice w hospital staff/therapists, get discharged, then return to same routine. As with my cousin, who's not a criminal but he's close. 

[spartan max2]

2 minutes ago, Bed of chaos said:

What happens after the involuntary hospitalization and they're set free? Not taking medication (w schizophrenics) is an enormous problem. Many don't always recognize their symptoms. They're also smart enough to play nice w hospital staff/therapists, get discharged, then return to same routine. As with my cousin, who's not a criminal but he's close. 

The good thing is that now compared to a decade or so ago is that be have long acting antipsychotics shots. One shots last 1-3 months. So even once they leave, they should be lucid for a while at least. 

Ultimately there isn't really more you can do if someone refuses help. 

Newyork has a law that can force people to do outpatient treatment. But I doubt that's really effective any 

[+Desertrat56]

57 minutes ago, Bed of chaos said:

What happens after the involuntary hospitalization and they're set free? Not taking medication (w schizophrenics) is an enormous problem. Many don't always recognize their symptoms. They're also smart enough to play nice w hospital staff/therapists, get discharged, then return to same routine. As with my cousin, who's not a criminal but he's close. 

My schizophrenic dad (mis-using alcohol and prescription medicine) was smart enough to keep a job until he could afford to retire at 54 (had a good retirement plan and had worked for the same company for 35 years).   He never got diagnosed properly because he had read all the psychology books and knew how to answer the questions so that he could get what ever drug prescription he wanted and not get put away or diagnosed properly.    But he would have never been, never was, homeless.  

I am not so sure all the homeless people are like your cousin.   I had a drug addict (crazy from trauma and drugs) who lived rough off and on, she was smart too, but she did not like staying in the same place very long. There are a lot of veterans out there living rough for a lot of different reasons.   They either don't have financial benefits from the military or those don't cover costs needed to rent a place, some live homeless close to the VA hospitals so that they can get the treatment they need, because there are no resources offered them that covers a place to stay or food.  There are families with children that are homeless because of covid and getting evicted because both parents lost their job.   And now they can get work but they can't afford to rent because rents have almost doubled in some places.   And there are a lot of drug addicts and mentally ill who either have no family or have lost contact with family.  

This is not a one size fits all problem, too many variables about why someone is homeless.   In the 80's the Reagan administration pulled funding for all the state run mental hospitals and the states could not afford to keep them open.  There was no place for those people to go so we had a huge influx of mentally ill  homeless people.

There is no simple answer for this. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Desertrat56

[+DieChecker]

This is a pretty bold action by NYC. Acting to treat people without their effective agreement. Very bold. 

I hope it produces positive results. If so, I'd like to see it repeated here in Portland OR. We have no shortage of mentally challenged homeless.

Where I live, on the far west side, it's not too bad, just a two or three bigger camps of 20 to 30 people, and a few individuals here and there. In Portland, I believe the last count was 6000 homeless. In endless camps all over the sidewalks, parks, empty lots, and alleyways. Six Thousand doesn't sound very impressive till you see them lying on the streets in piles of rubbish three feet high.

I almost ran one over a couple months ago in Portland. He ran right out in front of my car middle of the block from between the parked cars. Standing in front of the car screaming and slobbering spittle onto the street. Kind of scary. I just backed up ten meters and went around him on the other side. Worked OK. Saw the next car though got stopped also with a repeat performance.

Again, I hope they get positive results.

[+DieChecker]

I think there are parallels between the homeless and illegal immigrants. Both move to where they think they will be allowed to live easier. Both aren't always accepted when they get there. Both need aid to get back to a Normal situation.

Immigrants though are rational, hardworking, and adopt into the communities relatively well.

The homeless though are often addicted to drugs, or mentally unstable. And this are actually a real problem for society.

[Gromdor]

15 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I think there are parallels between the homeless and illegal immigrants. Both move to where they think they will be allowed to live easier. Both aren't always accepted when they get there. Both need aid to get back to a Normal situation.

Immigrants though are rational, hardworking, and adopt into the communities relatively well.

The homeless though are often addicted to drugs, or mentally unstable. And this are actually a real problem for society.

I don't think illegal immigrants need aid.  If that was true, it would be much easier to catch them.

One illegal immigrant (US citizen now) came here decades ago (flew in/over stayed visa), got a job at a meat packing plant, got homesick and crossed the border illegally the other way, got reverse home sick and snuck back the other way, got a job again, got married to an American woman, had three kids, and got citizenship.  Never once was he on welfare or needed assistance (because he didn't want to be caught).  I just attended his eldest son's wedding and his youngest's graduation party.

[Bed of chaos]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

My schizophrenic dad (mis-using alcohol and prescription medicine) was smart enough to keep a job until he could afford to retire at 54 (had a good retirement plan and had worked for the same company for 35 years).   He never got diagnosed properly because he had read all the psychology books and knew how to answer the questions so that he could get what ever drug prescription he wanted and not get put away or diagnosed properly.    But he would have never been, never was, homeless.  

I am not so sure all the homeless people are like your cousin.   I had a drug addict (crazy from trauma and drugs) who lived rough off and on, she was smart too, but she did not like staying in the same place very long. There are a lot of veterans out there living rough for a lot of different reasons.   They either don't have financial benefits from the military or those don't cover costs needed to rent a place, some live homeless close to the VA hospitals so that they can get the treatment they need, because there are no resources offered them that covers a place to stay or food.  There are families with children that are homeless because of covid and getting evicted because both parents lost their job.   And now they can get work but they can't afford to rent because rents have almost doubled in some places.   And there are a lot of drug addicts and mentally ill who either have no family or have lost contact with family.  

This is not a one size fits all problem, too many variables about why someone is homeless.   In the 80's the Reagan administration pulled funding for all the state run mental hospitals and the states could not afford to keep them open.  There was no place for those people to go so we had a huge influx of mentally ill  homeless people.

There is no simple answer for this. 

You're right. Most homeless aren't like my cousin. His parents are somewhat well off and bailed him out numerous times. Though we (my immediate family) repeatedly question whether it's the illness or him acting like an entitled spoiled idiot. For one (about 6 months ago) he was set up to receive disability. One month beforehand, he ordered sunglasses (worth hundreds of $$$). They saw the credit card charges. He was previously warned they'd look for large purchases and no more disability. This still makes my blood boil.

Anyway, in regards to prescription meds, it's more difficult today (at least here in P.A.) to get narcotics. Pharm shoppers can't use the same tricks (excluding black market). Most pharmacies have an online drug monitoring system. Basically if someone uses different pharmacies (or cash instead of running script thru insurance) they'll most likely get caught. Also, more md's are hesitant to prescribe pain killers.

I agree there's no simple answer. I've previously worked w schizophrenics (case management). However idk everything & not much experience w homeless. Most of caseload were already set up. Housing, government assistance, partial programs, psychiatrist, medication, treatment plans. I wouldn't consider job much different from a glorified taxi driver. We'd shuffle them to different appointments.

I have no clue what will happen in NY. As SpartanMax stated there's long acting antipsychotic injections though it's not a cure all. If I remember correctly, it's mostly beneficial when patients first develop symptoms. With this NY program, I suppose it depends on how long someone's been mentally ill. Or how long someone's been a criminal. Also, as you pointed out, what community resources are available to them.