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The coming CBDC and "programmable" money


and-then

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9 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Programmable Money: How Smart Contracts Make Money Better | Algorand

Basically digital money that can be programmed in a certain way.  Like trust money that doesn't become valid till the recipient turns 18.  Or food stamp money that can't buy alcohol.

edit to add:  I am all digital.  My pay is transfered and I do all purchases on designated cards. I have been like this fo probably the last decade or so.

I'm confused in what way thats different. I thought food stamp cards already only worked for certain things and that people make trust funds that can't be accessed tell 18?

 

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6 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I'm confused in what way thats different. I thought food stamp cards already only worked for certain things and that people make trust funds that can't be accessed tell 18?

 

Maybe the examples I gave were poor.  The idea is to get people out of the equation and let the "programmable rules" become characteristic of the money involved.

But you are right, we already have this to some degree.

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12 hours ago, and-then said:

I don't see any similarity at all, but then, I'm not Trump obsessed.  Do you have anything to add to THIS discussion?  For example, would you be okay with having a bureaucrat social justice type having the power to limit what when and where you can spend your own money?

This was Andrew Yang's argument concerning UBI as a superior idea.  Welfare as it stands limits your freedom and it would be better if the government is going to give you money they should not have a say as to what it it used for as people should be trusted to watch out for their own varying and changing best interests.  I agree.  Sometimes it may be better for an individual to get their car running and sometimes it might be better for them to buy diapers, and sometimes rent of food and that should not be up to a govt. agency to determine for an individual.  If they spend it on drugs or alcohol then that's on them and they have to live with it.   

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8 minutes ago, OverSword said:

This was Andrew Yang's argument concerning UBI as a superior idea.  Welfare as it stands limits your freedom and it would be better if the government is going to give you money they should not have a say as to what it it used for as people should be trusted to watch out for their own varying and changing best interests.  I agree.  Sometimes it may be better for an individual to get their car running and sometimes it might be better for them to buy diapers, and sometimes rent of food and that should not be up to a govt. agency to determine for an individual.  If they spend it on drugs or alcohol then that's on them and they have to live with it.   

Hi OverSword

Here I know that people on social assistance don’t get the rent money and it gets sent directly to the landlord as there was a problem with people spending their rent money instead of paying bills.

If a digital system is in place that makes clients use money for the reasons that it is given doesn’t seem to be a problem as far as I can see. I work for my money so have no one telling me how I have to use it.

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6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi OverSword

Here I know that people on social assistance don’t get the rent money and it gets sent directly to the landlord as there was a problem with people spending their rent money instead of paying bills.

If a digital system is in place that makes clients use money for the reasons that it is given doesn’t seem to be a problem as far as I can see. I work for my money so have no one telling me how I have to use it.

I understand that.  I just believe that a negative income tax or perhaps UBI would be superior.

Edited by OverSword
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  • 3 months later...
On 12/5/2022 at 9:30 AM, Gromdor said:

Basically digital money that can be programmed in a certain way.  Like trust money that doesn't become valid till the recipient turns 18.  Or food stamp money that can't buy alcohol.

I assume then that you'd be okay with a Republican secretary of the Treasury or POTUS, or some other bureaucrat having the power to decide what you are allowed to spend your own hard-earned money for?  This is an issue that will impact every aspect of our lives and once it has been put in place, they will make it nearly impossible to circumvent.  This is purely about total government control of the population - like the CCP's social credit system.  

Here's a global overview:

https://www.americanbanker.com/payments/list/cbdc-projects-pick-up-the-pace-as-2023-kicks-off

This one begins THIS YEAR:

https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/other20220829a.htm

It seems to be a CBDC without the idea of a "coin" involved with it.  People are encouraged to switch their banking directly to the Federal Reserve.  

I'd imagine that for this to be air tight control, they'll shortly need to outlaw other digital currencies or the use of precious metals as "legal tender".  Once the system becomes that firmly entrenched, look for them to crack down on various forms of barter that groups will craft as an answer to maintaining some level of financial autonomy.  

So... setting aside the knee-jerk reactions based on who started the topic :lol:, tell me how you feel about the system IF it turns out to be as restrictive as I fear.  You know, answer it as a hypothetical.  Also, feel free to explain or postulate how ordinary working-class citizens could possibly circumvent this process.  I'd love to understand that aspect more fully.  

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9 minutes ago, and-then said:

I assume then that you'd be okay with a Republican secretary of the Treasury or POTUS, or some other bureaucrat having the power to decide what you are allowed to spend your own hard-earned money for?  This is an issue that will impact every aspect of our lives and once it has been put in place, they will make it nearly impossible to circumvent.  This is purely about total government control of the population - like the CCP's social credit system.  

Here's a global overview:

https://www.americanbanker.com/payments/list/cbdc-projects-pick-up-the-pace-as-2023-kicks-off

This one begins THIS YEAR:

https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/other20220829a.htm

It seems to be a CBDC without the idea of a "coin" involved with it.  People are encouraged to switch their banking directly to the Federal Reserve.  

I'd imagine that for this to be air tight control, they'll shortly need to outlaw other digital currencies or the use of precious metals as "legal tender".  Once the system becomes that firmly entrenched, look for them to crack down on various forms of barter that groups will craft as an answer to maintaining some level of financial autonomy.  

So... setting aside the knee-jerk reactions based on who started the topic :lol:, tell me how you feel about the system IF it turns out to be as restrictive as I fear.  You know, answer it as a hypothetical.  Also, feel free to explain or postulate how ordinary working-class citizens could possibly circumvent this process.  I'd love to understand that aspect more fully.  

I don't know about your state, but my state is Republican led and they have embraced this to restrict what people can buy with EBT: "It's a huge list": Iowa GOP bill would ban people on food stamps from buying fresh meat — and more (msn.com)

Unemployment insurance, payments and even crypto currency:Iowa may recognize 'smart contracts' for cryptocurrency - Radio Iowa

So to answer your question, I am basically indifferent to it.  

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36 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

So to answer your question, I am basically indifferent to it.  

I think the issue will go MUCH deeper but time will tell.  The one certainty is that once any government has that level of control over the people, it will never willingly relinquish it.

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EBT cards or any government assistance should have restrictions. That's understandable. The money you make on your own shouldn't. These are two completely different things.

As I've known this idea to be, I could be wrong, but for guys like jmmrc who say they don't care because they use their real cash for everything, well that cash become finite. In order to implement a cashless society banks will just turn it all over to the Feds. Cash will work for a while but sooner than later it will dry up. Eventually stores won't be able to accept it because they can't give change for it and your only recourse will be to use it for private transactions or take it to the bank in exchange for digital assets. It wouldn't be long before there's not much cash left out there. 

I could be making that all up. Maybe I read it somewhere or that's just how I've deduced the situation. 

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On 12/6/2022 at 12:44 AM, jeem said:

It could also be used to restrict payments say with certain geographic locations , set early expiration date or freeze the currency entirely making it unusable targeting individuals like protesters.

Whatever good it has certainly does not outweighs the bad in my opinion.    

It would still have to be justified and if it stops another Jan six, it can't be all bad.

It's different. Different scares people. 

Could it also hobble unscrupulous lenders who take advantage of people? 

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12 minutes ago, F3SS said:

EBT cards or any government assistance should have restrictions. That's understandable. The money you make on your own shouldn't. These are two completely different things.

As I've known this idea to be, I could be wrong, but for guys like jmmrc who say they don't care because they use their real cash for everything, well that cash become finite. In order to implement a cashless society banks will just turn it all over to the Feds. Cash will work for a while but sooner than later it will dry up. Eventually stores won't be able to accept it because they can't give change for it and your only recourse will be to use it for private transactions or take it to the bank in exchange for digital assets. It wouldn't be long before there's not much cash left out there. 

I could be making that all up. Maybe I read it somewhere or that's just how I've deduced the situation. 

Hi F3ZZ

I am not an American so what happens in your country does not necessarily infer how I will live in my country. I have also said I will likely be dead by the time any such changes like not having cash. The future population will have to deal with that as it will be the system they live in. There are other aspects to me using cash which I don’t think I have to justify to anyone as I am not selling anything to anyone and have no concerns about my future now that I have lived most of my life already.

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10 hours ago, and-then said:

I think the issue will go MUCH deeper but time will tell.  The one certainty is that once any government has that level of control over the people, it will never willingly relinquish it.

They will go deeper.  If you want to use government currency, then you will have to use government rules concerning that currency.  They already can freeze you bank accounts and seize your money.  They already can tell you what you can or cannot buy.  And Republicans are in on it, if not the ones that use it the most.

You might get lucky and have a power greedy governor install his own system seperate from the Federal system or have some corrupt politicians set up multiple systems so they can circumvent it themselves.  But it's here and has been here.  

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7 hours ago, Gromdor said:

But it's here and has been here. 

Has it?  I think you are equating doing business digitally with government control of ALL your spending decisions.  I hope I'm wrong but IMO, anyone who still trusts our government is naive at best.  We have just seen a demonstration of just how badly wrong this could all go, practically overnight.  When the next pandemic occurs, people refusing the vaccine could have THEIR MONEY removed from their control, until they comply with a government edict.  Mark you, not a LAW, but an executive order or even a bureaucratic demand.  If that would be acceptable for you then you should do okay in this brave new system.  

I think it is inescapable at this point but I'm curious about how they will enforce the use of it.  As usual, those with wealth will be able to find ways around it and working class and those who are totally government-dependent will find their lives increasingly controlled by bureaucrats.  I expect that initially we will see a type of non-digital black market that uses precious metals but the government can easily shut that down and make it illegal.  Stopping an organized barter system would be more difficult but they'd find a way to deter major transactions.  Death and Taxes, yeah?

I'm guessing the duration of a transition will depend on how much resistance they receive.  A couple of years, maybe, but I doubt it will take longer.  DC has lately not just crossed the Rubicon, they are merrily skipping along over it while grinning at us. 

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17 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi F3ZZ

I am not an American so what happens in your country does not necessarily infer how I will live in my country. I have also said I will likely be dead by the time any such changes like not having cash. The future population will have to deal with that as it will be the system they live in. There are other aspects to me using cash which I don’t think I have to justify to anyone as I am not selling anything to anyone and have no concerns about my future now that I have lived most of my life already.

You don't have to keep reminding us that you're not American. That doesn't mean we can't play off your words. However, I don't think it would take as long as you think to fully enact. If they ran full force implementing a mandatory digital currency you'd find very quickly that cash is scarce. There's only so much mattress money to go around. It wouldn't take years let alone a generation. 

Edited by F3SS
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Canada already froze the bank accounts of the truckers protesting the Covid shot. Some people who were arrested couldn't even come up with bail to get out of jail. How were they supposed to feed their kids without cash?

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2 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Canada already froze the bank accounts of the truckers protesting the Covid shot. Some people who were arrested couldn't even come up with bail to get out of jail. How were they supposed to feed their kids without cash?

Well they were violent nazis so they don't actually have any rights. Why question it?

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3 hours ago, F3SS said:

You don't have to keep reminding us that you're not American. That doesn't mean we can't play off your words. However, I don't think it would take as long as you think to fully enact. If they ran full force implementing a mandatory digital currency you'd find very quickly that cash is scarce. There's only so much mattress money to go around. It wouldn't take years let alone a generation. 

Hi F3ZZ 

Fair enough but I am an insignificant minority so it’s really not all that debatable as to how things will unfold in the future. The only reason I responded was I noticed that I was being used as an example when reading the thread.

You guys can worry about it if you want as that is your choice.

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7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi F3ZZ 

Fair enough but I am an insignificant minority so it’s really not all that debatable as to how things will unfold in the future. The only reason I responded was I noticed that I was being used as an example when reading the thread.

You guys can worry about it if you want as that is your choice.

Ha thats fair enough as well. Btw, I've noticed that every thread I see you in you comment, someone quotes you then you tell us how disinterested you actually are in the subject.

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1 hour ago, F3SS said:

Ha thats fair enough as well. Btw, I've noticed that every thread I see you in you comment, someone quotes you then you tell us how disinterested you actually are in the subject.

Hi F3ZZ

I am a passive reader in several sub forums here and at times make a comment, how people may react to it is about them not me. I do get involved in other areas of the forum that I find more engaging. For anything to do with your country it’s true that I have little to marginal interest s it has little to do with my life or how I live.

Just because I make occasional random comments doesn’t mean I live and breathe America like some other Canadian wannabe Americans. 

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It's very obvious government issued digital currency will be adopted sooner than later.  And yes, it will be used to track each individuals own carbon footprint.  But, IMO, it has absolutely nothing to do with the so-called Climate Emergency rather the opposite. The real threat is running low or completely out of fossil fuels.  <----- that's the Emergency. :yes: We desperately need to find and implement solutions to the rapidly declining reserves of fossil fuels. :yes: 

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