U.S. to reveal scientific milestone on fusion energy

[Rolltide]

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-announce-scientific-breakthrough-fusion-energy-sources-2022-12-12/

https://www.ft.com/content/4b6f0fab-66ef-4e33-adec-cfc345589dc7

[+Desertrat56]

Well, that doesn't sound promising.  

"Fusion works when nuclei of two atoms are subjected to extreme heat of 100 million degrees Celsius (180 million Fahrenheit) or higher leading them to fuse into a new larger atom, giving off enormous amounts of energy."

[+and-then]

42 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Well, that doesn't sound promising.  

"Fusion works when nuclei of two atoms are subjected to extreme heat of 100 million degrees Celsius (180 million Fahrenheit) or higher leading them to fuse into a new larger atom, giving off enormous amounts of energy."

Until the Wright brothers made one work, neither did heavier than air flight.  The challenges do seem enormous, though.  Controlling such a system would be ultra-critical.  Having one of those detonate or otherwise explosively vent their energy would be a catastrophe for the local area it serves.  

BUT... just imagine the freedom such an endless, clean energy supply it would make available.  It would literally change the world.

[pellinore]

16 hours ago, and-then said:

Until the Wright brothers made one work, neither did heavier than air flight.  The challenges do seem enormous, though.  Controlling such a system would be ultra-critical.  Having one of those detonate or otherwise explosively vent their energy would be a catastrophe for the local area it serves.  

BUT... just imagine the freedom such an endless, clean energy supply it would make available.  It would literally change the world.

US announces fusion energy success ‘that could revolutionize the world’ – live (msn.com)

[pellinore]

17 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Well, that doesn't sound promising.  

"Fusion works when nuclei of two atoms are subjected to extreme heat of 100 million degrees Celsius (180 million Fahrenheit) or higher leading them to fuse into a new larger atom, giving off enormous amounts of energy."

 Doctor Franklin is among the excited crowd watching the first balloon ascension from the Champ de Mars, August 27, 1783, and someone poses the inevitable conservative question—what good is it? Watching the balloon rise magically into the sky, the man who has busied himself with every novelty—with meteorology, inoculation, bifocals, lightning rods, postal service, hydrodynamics, even a sensible new stove—turns and replies: “What good is a newborn baby?” 

[Tatetopa]

Good. If the data proves out, it will not be the first time we have produced a controlled fusion reaction but the first time it produced more energy than it required to sustain.  Hydrogen bombs don't count as controlled.

I am old enough to remember science films we saw in elementary school in the 60's.  One was "Our Friend the Atom".  The claim was that nuclear power (fission style with uranium)  would be so cheap we wouldn't even need electric meters anymore.

If fusion becomes a thing, it will be in costly facilities owned by mega-corporations who will want their investment back.   On the bright side, more clean power will be available.  Cynic that I am, I am guessing the cost will be held at a little cheaper than current sources for an incentive to have a fusion plant next door, but not much savings for the average individual.

Super cynic that I am, it will be an opportunity for one or two corporations to corner energy production all over the globe.

Still, it is cool and has a lot of potential for the future. 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:58 PM, Desertrat56 said:

Well, that doesn't sound promising.  

"Fusion works when nuclei of two atoms are subjected to extreme heat of 100 million degrees Celsius (180 million Fahrenheit) or higher leading them to fuse into a new larger atom, giving off enormous amounts of energy."

Hey DR! How are ya? 

Ahhh, I have no idea why you would say that it does NOT sound promising. It sounds very promising to me. My opinion. And good to see you

[psyche101]

So more advanced than ITER? 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

[Grim Reaper 6]

21 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

So more advanced than ITER? 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

Don’t know if it’s more advanced, but it’s a different method. But, it appears they both use Deuterium–tritium as the energy source.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

So more advanced than ITER? 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

This is a pretty interesting topic my friend, it appears this is the first time that larger output was achieved than the input to create the energy as follows.

“”The experiment, conducted on December 5 at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, generated 3.15 megajoules of energy, more than the 2.05 megajoules put into creating it.””

Thats a dam good trick, but this isn’t the first time we were given hope. Yet, I do certainly hope this time it can be repeated and improved upon.

[psyche101]

19 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

This is a pretty interesting topic my friend, it appears this is the first time that larger output was achieved than the input to create the energy as follows.

“”The experiment, conducted on December 5 at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, generated 3.15 megajoules of energy, more than the 2.05 megajoules put into creating it.””

Thats a dam good trick, but this isn’t the first time we were given hope. Yet, I do certainly hope this time it can be repeated and improved upon.

Me too. It's been an ongoing project there for some years now that I've occasionally checked in on. 

It sounds very positive. Creating the heat and containing it was a major hurdle, but it looks like a light at the end of the energy tunnel. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Me too. It's been an ongoing project there for some years now that I've occasionally checked in on. 

It sounds very positive. Creating the heat and containing it was a major hurdle, but it looks like a light at the end of the energy tunnel. 

I also think so.

[Raptor Witness]

If true, this is easily the greatest invention of our species. Harnessing the power of the stars makes us godlike.

The problem is, we’re not ready for this, as we weren’t intended to be self-made gods; but instead, we were given a path to immortality, and that path is guarded by a flaming sword that cannot be bypassed, alone.

We won’t be allowed to simply take this step, as optimistic as it seems. Someone must take our hand, to cross over. Someone who has earned the right to do so.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Raptor Witness

[Ozymandias]

I don't know that this will ever result in limitless energy for humans, unless we dump or rewrite the Laws of Thermodynamics. They currently dictate that any process involving the generation and transfer of energy cannot ever exceed 100% and experience to date says it will be way lower than 100%. Entropy must always increase, or if it decreases in one place it overcompensates by a larger increase somewhere else. 

This experiment claims - and I don't doubt it - that for the infinitesimal short time and within the physical confines of the experiment, the fusion process produced more energy than was needed to make it happen, putting out about 40% more energy that was put in. But the laws of Thermodynamics will not be frustrated. What is not being said is that such a fusion process needs to be continuously maintained and controlled if we are to benefit from fusion energy. And there's the rub. It takes energy to keep the process going and even more energy to control and make workable use of the energy produced. Taking all of the necessary energy required to make this a viable practical means of power production will likely make it as inefficient as any other means at our disposal, thus not violating the Second Law of Thermodynamics at all.      

Edited December 14, 2022 by Ozymandias

[+Desertrat56]

12 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Hey DR! How are ya? 

Ahhh, I have no idea why you would say that it does NOT sound promising. It sounds very promising to me. My opinion. And good to see you

The extreme temperatures to get the reaction require way too much energy.   Stupid to use so much energy to create energy in my opinion.

How are you Earl.   I am staying busy and doing well.

[TripGun]

Loss of containment would destroy most of California... I think the contractors for Marble Hill are out of jail maybe.

[+DieChecker]

The problem, as I've read, is the Tritium.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/tritium#:~:text=Natural tritium is produced as,inventory is about 7.3 kg.

Quote

Natural tritium is produced as a result of the interaction of cosmic radiation with gases in the upper atmosphere, and the natural steady-state global inventory is about 7.3 kg. About five times this amount remains from past atmospheric nuclear weapons tests.

I have read it can be made in fusion nuclear plants, to the tune of nanograms. And could be curated in a fission plant even easier, but if it takes 1kg of tritium to make 0.2 kg (decreasing returns) then its not sustainable.

So either need a real good source of continuously created tritium, or a way to have deuterium fission. Which IIRC is a lot harder to use.

But, I do think this is a remarkable achievement. If true. Several others have made the claim before and each time was not reproduced.

Edited December 14, 2022 by DieChecker

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:12 AM, Desertrat56 said:

The extreme temperatures to get the reaction require way too much energy.   Stupid to use so much energy to create energy in my opinion.

How are you Earl.   I am staying busy and doing well.

Glad to hear it, DR.

Think of fusion as a kind of perpetual motion machine. Yes, you have to supply an awful lot of heat to kick the process of,
but once you do, the process supplies its own energy (heat) to continue on. It's kinda neat.

[+Desertrat56]

11 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Glad to hear it, DR.

Think of fusion as a kind of perpetual motion machine. Yes, you have to supply an awful lot of heat to kick the process of,
but once you do, the process supplies its own energy (heat) to continue on. It's kinda neat.

It just seems there are better ways.   What if you give it too much of a kick?   It just seems wasteful when there are better ways.  

[trevor borocz johnson]

This is the first article about fusion in thirty years. Thirty years ago, a man, no one Jim or something, wrote an article about fusion this night, And they say you can still hear him, typing, and if your really close you can even hear the sound of him saying stuff like what he's typing.

Edited December 17, 2022 by trevor borocz johnson

[badeskov]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:12 AM, Desertrat56 said:

The extreme temperatures to get the reaction require way too much energy.   Stupid to use so much energy to create energy in my opinion.

How are you Earl.   I am staying busy and doing well.

Not at all. As long as you have a net energy gain it doesn’t really matter how much energy is required to initiate the fusion process. 

[badeskov]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:34 AM, TripGun said:

Loss of containment would destroy most of California... I think the contractors for Marble Hill are out of jail maybe.

No, it wouldn’t. Why do you think that would happen?

[+DieChecker]

One thing to keep in mind is that a fusion generator wouldn't need just positive energy production, but enough production to overcome losses in the external system. Collecting the heat, converting it into electricity and "moving" that electricity all come with losses.

I think the hope is that eventually fusion will generate MUCH more power then put in.

I'd like to see a report that they replicated the experiment several times, and several times at other research facilities.

I still think the Tritium supply is going to be an issue.

Maybe that can be overcome in time also.

Edited December 21, 2022 by DieChecker

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

One thing to keep in mind is that a fusion generator wouldn't need just positive energy production, but enough production to overcome losses in the external system. Collecting the heat, converting it into electricity and "moving" that electricity all come with losses.

I think the hope is that eventually fusion will generate MUCH more power then put in.

I'd like to see a report that they replicated the experiment several times, and several times at other research facilities.

I still think the Tritium supply is going to be an issue.

Maybe that can be overcome in time also.

That contravenes the known laws of physics.

[Harte]

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

That contravenes the known laws of physics.

No it doesn't.
There is a concomitant loss of mass (which is converted into energy) so the energy equation is balanced.

Harte