The Phoenicians, Atlantis, and the Richat Structure

[Abramelin]

 

[Tom1200]

On 12/22/2022 at 2:20 AM, Thanos5150 said:

 

 

We can't take that map too seriously if it doesn't even mention Hy Brazil.

(I love making irrelevant links to silly subjects.  Don't vote this post or reply to it.  Just ignore me and I'll go away.  Happy Christmas everybody!)

[Piney]

28 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

We can't take that map too seriously if it doesn't even mention Hy Brazil.

(I love making irrelevant links to silly subjects.  Don't vote this post or reply to it.  Just ignore me and I'll go away.  Happy Christmas everybody!)

You weren't supposed to be released for another decade. 

[Abramelin]

A couple of links to a forum where they discussed the Richat structure and archaeological finds in the area:

https://googleearthcommunity.proboards.com/thread/8406/buried-structures-discovered-richat-structure

 

https://googleearthcommunity.proboards.com/thread/5631/ancient-african-stone-structures?page=1#post-35237

[Thanos5150]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:44 AM, Thanos5150 said:

I don't know what they would have seen 2,000-3,000yrs ago but it is reasonable to assume "more". Just because you could only see the whole of it from the air, you don't think if you were walking on the ground along the "walls" you wouldn't figure out you were walking in circles? And the notion it could only be seen from the air is bogus anyways as both the close up and satellite images are misleading. A better perspective:

Just standing on the edge of the overlooking plateau it would be easy to see this unusual ringed structure. Without an understanding of geology it is easy to understand why ancient peoples who saw this might think these were the walled ruins of some long lost city.  

Again, from the OP:

I have a feeling this has been a tourist attraction for quite some time. 

Discovery and location

This structure had been described as early as 1916, with fairly strong approximations (but at the time there were no aerial photographs, and no GPS - only compass, planchette and pencil! -), by the French soldiers, then evoked by Ernest Psichari in his book “The voices that cry in the desert” of 1920: he describes the depression that borders the Richat to the west, between the outer enclosure of the formation and the border cliff of the Chinguetti plateau . The Guelb er Richât appears for the first time on a map in 1922(Geographical Service of French West Africa). In 1934, Th. Monod was the very first scientist to visit this strange formation (the facsimile of his exploration diary for the day of July 7, 1934 was published in B. Lecoquierre, 2008, Traversing the Earth , L'Harmattan , p.113). He returned there many times, published a scientific work on the question in 1973 (with Charles Pomerol) and carried out his very last mission there in December 1998, at the age of 96. The Guelb er Richat, on the other hand, attracted the attention of the first space missions because of its characteristic “eye” shape in a fairly monotonous desert landscape. It has also become a landmark for cosmonauts.

Scientific interpretation

The most commonly accepted explanation is that a magmatic dome formed, on a crossing of fault lines, about one hundred million years ago, and stopped growing before the dome became volcano. The old Cambrian sandstones raised by the installation of the dome were then the play of fractures and erosion to present this system of concentric cuestas which today gives the Richat its somewhat mysterious character. After having interpreted it as an astrobleme (meteorite impact structure), geologists thought of a symmetrical uplift (circular anticline). But Th. Monod, who studied this phenomenon with a few colleagues, published almost half a century ago (Monod and Pomerol, 1973 [before satellite photos] ) hypotheses very close to the explanation commonly accepted today.

Oops.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Thanos5150

[Abramelin]

On 12/20/2022 at 7:51 AM, Thanos5150 said:

 

Though this has yet to be verified archeologically, according to the Greek writer Strabo the city of Agadir was founded by the Phoenicians in 1104BC.

That wasn't about the Agadir on the west coast of Africa, but the Gadir in south Spain.

This Gadir was also called 'Qadesh' by the Phoenicians/Punics/Carthagenians, and it meant 'holy'. Later the Romans called it 'Gades', the present Cadiz.

 

[Thanos5150]

8 hours ago, Abramelin said:

That wasn't about the Agadir on the west coast of Africa, but the Gadir in south Spain.

This Gadir was also called 'Qadesh' by the Phoenicians/Punics/Carthagenians, and it meant 'holy'. Later the Romans called it 'Gades', the present Cadiz.

I realized that when I posted this map but forgot to correct it. HERE.

Regardless, "Though it appears he [Hanno 5th century BC] travelled well farther down the coast of Africa, he supposedly founded a colony in the Bay of Arguin known as Cerne which is thought by some to be near the city of Agadir (see map above of Atlas Mountains as well)."

So, 5th century BC for the "other" Agadir which if Cadiz were founded in 1100BC I think it is very possible they travelled south far earlier than Hanno.  

Edited December 24, 2022 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:27 AM, Abramelin said:

Yes, really.

I'll bet you'd be disappointed if you ever visited the site.

Oh? I fail to see why when I have placed no expectation on it other than what it actually is. 

[Thanos5150]

10 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Discovery and location

This structure had been described as early as 1916, with fairly strong approximations (but at the time there were no aerial photographs, and no GPS - only compass, planchette and pencil! -), by the French soldiers, then evoked by Ernest Psichari in his book “The voices that cry in the desert” of 1920: he describes the depression that borders the Richat to the west, between the outer enclosure of the formation and the border cliff of the Chinguetti plateau . The Guelb er Richât appears for the first time on a map in 1922(Geographical Service of French West Africa). In 1934, Th. Monod was the very first scientist to visit this strange formation (the facsimile of his exploration diary for the day of July 7, 1934 was published in B. Lecoquierre, 2008, Traversing the Earth , L'Harmattan , p.113). He returned there many times, published a scientific work on the question in 1973 (with Charles Pomerol) and carried out his very last mission there in December 1998, at the age of 96. The Guelb er Richat, on the other hand, attracted the attention of the first space missions because of its characteristic “eye” shape in a fairly monotonous desert landscape. It has also become a landmark for cosmonauts.

Scientific interpretation

The most commonly accepted explanation is that a magmatic dome formed, on a crossing of fault lines, about one hundred million years ago, and stopped growing before the dome became volcano. The old Cambrian sandstones raised by the installation of the dome were then the play of fractures and erosion to present this system of concentric cuestas which today gives the Richat its somewhat mysterious character. After having interpreted it as an astrobleme (meteorite impact structure), geologists thought of a symmetrical uplift (circular anticline). But Th. Monod, who studied this phenomenon with a few colleagues, published almost half a century ago (Monod and Pomerol, 1973 [before satellite photos] ) hypotheses very close to the explanation commonly accepted today.

Oops.

Les voix qui crient dans le désert : souvenirs d'Afrique, (The voices that cry in the desert) Ernest Psichari 1920 beginning p41. 

Anyone read French so I don't have to type this into Google translate?  

[Trelane]

Agadir is far more remarkable to the casual observer then the Richat.

[Tom1200]

22 hours ago, Piney said:

You weren't supposed to be released for another decade. 

True, I'm still in my pleasantly padded room.  The straightjacket itches like hell, but @cladking in the next cell visits, and an hour listening to him numbs all sensations.  I'm only allowed ten minutes a day typing with my nose, so sorry for any typos. 

Why does nobody address the wooly mammoth in the room? If the Egyptian priests were honest and sincere when telling Solon the great disaster had happened 9000 years previously: are we seriously expected to believe that this story didn't morph and grow during 9000 years of unwritten testimony, through nine millennia of unrecorded history and unimaginable changes in language and literacy?  And NOTHING else happened in between that was worth mentioning?  People like Handcock and @claddy seem to accept as factual since it fits their preconceived time frame.  Isn't it altogether far more likely that any story told in 600BC is a concatenation of multiple sources, and can hardly be treated as gospel?

[Thanos5150]

6 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

Why does nobody address the wooly mammoth in the room? If the Egyptian priests were honest and sincere when telling Solon the great disaster had happened 9000 years previously: are we seriously expected to believe that this story didn't morph and grow during 9000 years of unwritten testimony, through nine millennia of unrecorded history and unimaginable changes in language and literacy?  And NOTHING else happened in between that was worth mentioning?  People like Handcock and @claddy seem to accept as factual since it fits their preconceived time frame.  Isn't it altogether far more likely that any story told in 600BC is a concatenation of multiple sources, and can hardly be treated as gospel?

Dude. It was written on golden tablets by the survivors themselves which they put in the Hall of Records under the Sphinx. After that they opened up the Great Pyramid and got all of their rebuild-the-world-stuff they stashed for this event then went to Karahan Tepe and made a pool with a bunch of big penises in it and taught everyone farming. This should be common knowledge by now. 

The Egyptian priests, keepers of the Hall of Records, recounted the events inscribed on the golden tablets to Solon verbatim. Solon eventually told Critias's great grandfather which some 200yrs later made it's way to Plato. Sure, it's no Bible, but hard to get more credible than that. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Thanos5150

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

 

Why does nobody address the wooly mammoth in the room? I

Mario did, in another room:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/362502-a-2-million-year-old-ecosystem-in-greenland-uncovered-by-environmental-dna/

It's a couple of million years off, but he couldn't care less: HIS Atlantis had 'elephants'.

Once.

[Thanos5150]

Hundreds of Mysterious Stone Structures Discovered in Western Sahara

The archaeology of Western Sahara: results of environmental and archaeological reconnaissance

Western Sahara has one of the last remaining unexplored prehistories on the planet. The new research reported here reveals a sequence of Holocene occupation beginning in a humid period around 9000 bp, superceded around 5000 bp by an arid phase in which the land was mainly given over to pastoralism and monumental burial. The authors summarise the flint and pottery assemblage and classify the monuments, looking to neighbouring cultures in Niger, Libya and Sudan.

[Thanos5150]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:44 AM, Thanos5150 said:

I don't know what they would have seen 2,000-3,000yrs ago but it is reasonable to assume "more". Just because you could only see the whole of it from the air, you don't think if you were walking on the ground along the "walls" you wouldn't figure out you were walking in circles? And the notion it could only be seen from the air is bogus anyways as both the close up and satellite images are misleading. A better perspective:

 

This image hasn't sat right with me and after researching it some more it unfortunately has been digitized for high contrast more than it appeared to be and is a bit misleading itself as to what is actually there. This is an untouched aerial view by plane:

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said:

This image hasn't sat right with me and after researching it some more it unfortunately has been digitized for high contrast more than it appeared to be and is a bit misleading itself as to what is actually there. This is an untouched aerial view by plane:

 

After having the time to watch some videos of travel to the site by land it is admittedly hard to reconcile what is seen in the photo above with what can be discerned by ground. With that being said I refer back to HERE as French soldiers in 1916, on the ground, were able to describe the structure with "fairly strong approximations" implying they understood it was a "ringed structure' of a sort. And in 1934 Monod thought it of sufficient interest to study it until 1998 when was 98 years old. It would be very interesting, and necessary, to find these original sources before it was seen by the air and see what they had to say. Also important, reffering to the OP, the Richat has been continuously subjected to large amounts of sedimentation and erosion leaving deposits some 10-13ft thick just during the period of 15,000-8,000 years ago meaning the "walls" of the rings would be substantially higher and more defined the farther back in time we go. Again, we are left to wonder what state it was in during the Phoenicians day some 2500-3000yrs ago.   

[cormac mac airt]

19 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

After having the time to watch some videos of travel to the site by land it is admittedly hard to reconcile what is seen in tt rs old. It would be very interesting, and necessary, to find these original sources before it was seen by the air and see what they had to say. Also important, reffering to the OP, the Richat has been continuously subjected to large amounts of sedimentation and erosion leaving deposits some 10-13ft thick just during the period of 15,000-8,000 years ago meaning the "walls" of the rings would be substantially higher and more defined the farther back in time we go. Again, we are left to wonder what state it was in during the Phoenicians day some 2500-3000yrs ago.   

It's not a bad hypothesis that the Richat Structure may have been the inspiration for Plato's Atlantis, the thing that interests me is that if that were true then Plato did some MASSIVE reworking of the tale in order to move "Atlantis" from the Richat Structure to his claimed location in front of the PoH/SoG some 1000+ miles away as the crow flies. But then if one is making up a story it really doesn't make much difference how ridiculous they get with the details. 

cormac

[Thanos5150]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

It's not a bad hypothesis that the Richat Structure may have been the inspiration for Plato's Atlantis, the thing that interests me is that if that were true then Plato did some MASSIVE reworking of the tale in order to move "Atlantis" from the Richat Structure to his claimed location in front of the PoH/SoG some 1000+ miles away as the crow flies. But then if one is making up a story it really doesn't make much difference how ridiculous they get with the details. 

cormac

Atlantis has never interested me much because it is obviously fiction for several reasons the least of which the story itself. If there is something to this I think at best all Plato knew it was "in front of" the PoH, which stands to reason what was past it was fodder for the imagination anyways, and just made up what he could not embellish. If there is any reality to it, regardless of the Richat structure or not, it seems to have originated in one form or another with the exploits of the Phoenicians. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Thanos5150

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said:

Atlantis has never interested me much because it is obviously fiction for several reasons the least of which the story itself. If there is something to this I think at best all Plato knew it was "in front of" the PoH, which stands to reason what was past it was fodder for the imagination anyways, and just made up what he could not embellish. If there is any reality to it, regardless of the Richat structure or not, it seems to have originated in one form or another with the exploits of the Phoenicians. 

I always thought the inspiration was Athens invasion of Sicily.

[Thanos5150]

7 hours ago, Piney said:

I always thought the inspiration was Athens invasion of Sicily.

I'm speaking of the city of Atlantis not the story. 

[Abramelin]

12 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Atlantis has never interested me much because it is obviously fiction for several reasons the least of which the story itself.

I think you were interested a lot when you were younger.

Like most skeptics here were.

But the more we learned, the more we got disappointed.

Now all we are left with is finding out what must have inspired Plato.

And I think, like you (?) that the Phoenicians must have been one of the main sources Plato based his story on. And Strabo said his thing that made people think again.

Well, just think of the Phoenician 'cothon', their harbours I have posted about dozens of times:

Edited December 25, 2022 by Abramelin

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I think you were interested a lot when you were younger.

Like most skeptics here were.

But the more we learned, the more we got disappointed.

Now all we are left with is finding out what must have inspired Plato.

And I think, like you (?) that the Phoenicians must have been one of the main sources Plato based his story on. And Strabo said his thing that made people think again.

Well, just think of the Phoenician 'cothon', their harbours I have posted about dozens of times:

"The more we learned the more we were disappointed."

That's Gospel around here. 

[Skirnum]

19 minutes ago, Piney said:

"The more we learned the more we were disappointed."

That's Gospel around here. 

Maybe we will be impressed by the simple truth. When it rises like the sun rises, when the time is right. :-)

[Thanos5150]

10 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I think you were interested a lot when you were younger.

Where is the grey area here: "Atlantis has never interested me much because it is obviously fiction for several reasons the least of which the story itself."? 

If that is what I meant I would have said it. 

Quote

And I think, like you (?) that the Phoenicians must have been one of the main sources Plato based his story on. And Strabo said his thing that made people think again.

This is literally the last sentence of post you just quoted:

"If there is any reality to it, regardless of the Richat structure or not, it seems to have originated in one form or another with the exploits of the Phoenicians." 

Quoting the OP which the Phoenicians are a large part: 

"With that being said, again, we must note that no one mentions any Atlantis as Plato does, but there were "Atlanteans" and an "Atlantis" (Atlantes). They were the Phoenicians and the place was the Atlas mountains stretching to the coast of Africa."   

Edited December 26, 2022 by Thanos5150

[atalante]

On 12/24/2022 at 11:54 PM, Thanos5150 said:

Atlantis has never interested me much because it is obviously fiction for several reasons the least of which the story itself. If there is something to this I think at best all Plato knew it was "in front of" the PoH, which stands to reason what was past it was fodder for the imagination anyways, and just made up what he could not embellish. If there is any reality to it, regardless of the Richat structure or not, it seems to have originated in one form or another with the exploits of the Phoenicians. 

Thanos,

Strabo's date, 1100BC for Phoenicians at Cadiz, was always highly speculative.  According to modern views, the Phoenicians did not trade in southwestern Spain until the 9th and 8th centuries BCE (when Phoenicia started needing to make huge tribute payments to the Assyrian Empire, to allow Phoenicia's city-states to remain remain free).

 

1.  from https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/phoenician-diaspora-in-the-westernmost-mediterranean-recent-discoveries/B361A50780BF2606D085C3601A2C2680                                                  

The hinterland of present-day Huelva, located to the west of the Strait of Gibraltar (Figure 1), is rich in mineral and metal resources. Research conducted in the estuary formed by the confluence of the Tinto and Odiel Rivers has yielded data on what might be the earliest evidence for the continued presence of Phoenicians in southern Iberia (González de Canales Reference González de Canales, Gailledrat, Plana Mallart and Dietler2018).

 

2.  from:  https://www.shorthistory.org/ancient-civilizations/mesopotamia/phoenicia/phoenicia/

A list of Assyrian kings who made Phoenicia's homeland pay tribute to remain free:

Ashurnasiripal II (883-859 BC)

Tiglath Pileser (745-727 BC) who raised Tyre's tribute payments to 150 talents of gold annually

Esarhaddon (680-669 BC) who conquered Sidon and made a famous treaty with Tyre

Ashurbanipal (668-627 BC) put down a rebellion in Tyre in 667-665 BC

 

In between those powerful Assyrian kings, Phoenicia often rebelled and stopped paying tribute to Assyria.

cf: ( https://www.livius.org/sources/content/anet/533-534-treaty-of-esarhaddon-with-baal-i-of-tyre/ )

 

 

3.  In Homer's era (ca 740 BC) the Phoenicians were resettling large numbers of citizens from their Phoenician homeland, into various colonies near Cadiz, Spain, near the mouth of the Guadalquivir river (especially at the Dona Blanca archaeological site, which had previously been inhabited in the Chalcolithic age).

https://visit-andalucia.com/dona-blanca-phoenician-town/ The Chalcolithic part of this Dona Blanca site is called La Dehesa, which refers to an organized pasture lifestyle that still exists in Spain and Portugal, with fences, on marginal land with limited agricultural potential.  . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehesa

A dehesa lifestyle for a region near Cadiz Bay, with pastoral human caretakers -- resembles what Plato's naming implies, at Critias 114b, about the primitive Atlantean king for that region, Eumelus (= "rich in sheep" for Greek language) -- and the traditional dehesa fenced enclosures also resemble the meaning of a Phoenician word-root for Gadir (= "fenced sheep pen").   

Tyre (ca 740 BCE, which was also Homer's era) needed to obtain fabulous wealth from its Huelva and Cadiz Bay colonies, so Tyre could pay 150 talents of gold annual tribute, to Assyria's king Tiglath Pileser (as tabulated above).

According to Strabo (Geography 3.2.12 https://archive.org/details/Strabo08Geography17AndIndex/Strabo 02 Geography 3-5/page/50/mode/2up ), Homer's era had collected rumors from Phoenicians, about Phoenicia's distant metal-rich place called Tartessus.  Also according to Strabo, later Greco-Roman writers understood that Homer's mysterious Tartarus was a slightly garbled name, equivalent to the real place named Tartessus.  

 

4.  Then a Babylonian empire superseded the neo-Assyrian empire, and Nebuchadnezzar II successfully besieged Tyre in 586-573 BC.  But after a while, Tyre rebelled again.

In 539 BC, Cyrus the Great incorporated all Phoenician city-states of the Levant into the Persian empire, and Tyre ceased to be a free city-state.  Subsequently, Carthage assumed leadership (instead of Tyre) over the western Phoenician colonies.

Edited December 26, 2022 by atalante