The Phoenicians, Atlantis, and the Richat Structure

[Thanos5150]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:14 AM, atalante said:

Thanos,

Any date near 1000 BCE, from ancient writers who lived in the Mediterranean region and Levant, has to be speculative -- because that date was in the middle of a dark age, which modern investigators claim lasted roughly 350 years, ca. 1150-800 BCE.

It goes without saying Strabo giving an exact date should be taken with caution regardless of the reason, but it is certainly possible nonetheless. The point of noting it is that it was understood by Strabo the Phoenicians had travelled outside the PoH well before Hanno. 

RE: the Late Bronze Age Collapse:

Sometime between 1200 and 1150 BC, the Late Bronze Age collapse severely weakened or destroyed most civilizations in the region, including the Egyptians and Hittites. The Phoenicians appear to have weathered the crisis relatively well, emerging as a distinct and organized civilization in 1230 BC. The period is sometimes described as a "Phoenician renaissance."^[42] They filled the power vacuum caused by the Late Bronze Age collapse by becoming the sole mercantile and maritime power in the region, a status they would maintain for the next several centuries.^[10]

The recovery of the Mediterranean economy can be credited to Phoenician mariners and merchants, who re-established long-distance trade between Egypt and Mesopotamia in the 10th century BC.^[43]

The Phoenicians were at the height of their powers c. the time of Strabo's account-unfettered to travel as far and wide as they pleased. The Phoenicians were already well established prior to 1230BC as noted in Egyptian writings under Thutmose II in 15th century BC and  even more so by the 14th century with several notable cities to the Egyptians including Byblos-a port city synonymous with ship building since the very beginnings of Dynastic Egypt if not well before. 

Quote

Romans traditionally claimed the capital city of their Roman Republic had been founded by two brothers (Romulus and Remus) who, as babies, had been raised by wild wolves ca 800 BCE. 

Then at the start of a period of Roman opulence, when the Republic blossomed into Empire, Roman writers grafted a more glorious story about the end of Greece's Trojan war (ca 1180 BCE) onto the traditional storyline about the brothers Romulus and Remus (ca 800 BCE).

The newer composite Roman storyline assumes that Aeneas left Troy at the end of the Trojan war (ca 1180 BCE), and wandered around in the eastern Mediterranean sea for about 300 years, before Aeneas met Phoenician queen Dido, shortly after she founded Carthage (ca 800 BCE).  Then Aeneas recognized that he himself also had a destiny to found a national people -- so Aeneas left queen Dido and migrated to Italy. 

To summarize:  Strabo's proposed date about Phoenicians ca 1104 BCE was not firmly grounded.

 

 Historical context supports the possibility of Strabo's date regardless as well as long before and/or at any point well prior to Hanno. 

[Abramelin]

On 12/28/2022 at 6:12 PM, Thanos5150 said:

Historical context supports the possibility of Strabo's date regardless as well as long before and/or at any point well prior to Hanno. 

We may be looking at the wrong city for some sort of proof the Phoenicians settled outside the Pillars of Hercules before 900 bce:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon

Another claim repeated in literature is that the name of Lisbon could be traced back to Phoenician times, referring to a supposed Phoenician term Alis-Ubbo, meaning "safe harbour" or "pleasant haven".[25][26][27] Although modern archaeological excavations show a Phoenician presence at this location since 1200 BC,[28] this folk etymology "is never attested in ancient classical literature".[29]

And other sites more or less say the same.

 

"Alis Ubbo" and its meaning in Phoenician: safe harbour, delightful little port, pleasant bay, enchanting port, pleasant haven, and so on.

Although the link above suggests the name 'Alis Ubbo' is based on folk etymology, the earliest Mediterranean presence by Phoenicians sure makes it more likely than the name Lisbon being based on a visit by Ulysses.

Edited to add:

If the Phoenicians were present in Lisbon around 1200 bce., then it is to be expected they had settled in Cadiz/Gadir around the same time. They preferred islands in front of the coast or peninsulas.

Not some 'enchanted little safe harbour/haven/ bay".

Edited December 30, 2022 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

31 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

We may be looking at the wrong city for some sort of proof the Phoenicians settled outside the Pillars of Hercules before 900 bce:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon

Another claim repeated in literature is that the name of Lisbon could be traced back to Phoenician times, referring to a supposed Phoenician term Alis-Ubbo, meaning "safe harbour" or "pleasant haven".[25][26][27] Although modern archaeological excavations show a Phoenician presence at this location since 1200 BC,[28] this folk etymology "is never attested in ancient classical literature".[29]

And other sites more or less say the same.

 

"Alis Ubbo" and its meaning in Phoenician: safe harbour, delightful little port, pleasant bay, enchanting port, pleasant haven, and so on.

Although the link above suggests the name 'Alis Ubbo' is based on folk etymology, the earliest Mediterranean presence by Phoenicians sure makes it more likely than the name Lisbon being based on a visit by Ulysses.

Edited to add:

If the Phoenicians were present in Lisbon around 1200 bce., then it is to be expected they had settled in Cadiz/Gadir around the same time. They preferred islands in front of the coast or peninsulas.

Not some 'enchanted little safe harbour/haven/ bay".

Legend attributes the founding of Lisbon and the derivation of its name to the heroes of Greek myth Ulysses, Lisa and Elixa. History, however, traces the city back to the Phoenicians, who settled in the port they named Alisubbo (balmy inlet) on the summit and south side of the hill where the Castle of São Jorge exists today.

There are some traces of Palaeolithic and Mesolithic culture, with agriculture probably being introduced by a copper-using race who arrived both overland and by sea from southern Spain and the Mediterranean.

https://portugaltravelguide.com/history-of-lisbon/

[atalante]

On 12/30/2022 at 2:07 PM, Abramelin said:

Legend attributes the founding of Lisbon and the derivation of its name to the heroes of Greek myth Ulysses, Lisa and Elixa. History, however, traces the city back to the Phoenicians, who settled in the port they named Alisubbo (balmy inlet) on the summit and south side of the hill where the Castle of Sao Jorge exists today.

https://portugaltravelguide.com/history-of-lisbon/

 

Abe, 

 

I think you should be saying the Phoenicians arrived at Lisbon around 800 BC (not 1200 BC).

 

from:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George%27s_Castle

Saint George's Castle (Portuguese: Castelo de São Jorge; Portuguese pronunciation: [kɐʃˈtɛlu dɨ sɐ̃w̃ ˈʒɔɾʒ(ɨ)]) is a historic castle in the Portuguese capital of Lisbon, located in the freguesia of Santa Maria Maior. Human occupation of the castle hill dates to at least the 8th century BC ^[1][2] while the first fortifications built date from the 1st century BC.^[3] The hill on which Saint George's Castle stands has played an important part in the history of Lisbon, having served as the location of fortifications occupied successively by Phoenicians,  Carthaginians, Romans, and Moors, before its conquest by the Portuguese in the 1147 Siege of Lisbon.

 

 

Regarding legends about Odysseus reaching Lisbon, and Menestheus colonizing Porto Menestheus in Cadiz bay:

 

Both of those viewpoints (about Greeks going to the far west during Mycenaean times) arose because Greeks tended to believe Hesiod, when Hesiod said

 

Hesiod Works and Days lines 156-173

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D140

 

But when earth had covered this [early copper age] generation also, Zeus the son of Cronos made yet another, the fourth, upon the fruitful earth, which was nobler and more righteous, a god-like race of hero-men who are called [160] demi-gods, the race before our own, throughout the boundless earth. Grim war and dread battle destroyed a part of them,...when it had brought them in ships over the great sea gulf [165] to Troy for rich-haired Helen's sake: there death's end enshrouded a part of them. But to the others father Zeus the son of Cronus gave a living and an abode apart from men, and made them dwell at the ends of the earth. [170] And they live untouched by sorrow in the islands of the blessed along the shore of deep-swirling Ocean, happy heroes for whom [173] the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, [169] far from the deathless gods, and Cronus rules over them; [169a] for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds. [169b] And these last equally have honor and glory. [169c] And again far-seeing Zeus made yet another generation, the fifth, of men [169d] who are upon the bounteous earth.

[Abramelin]

51 minutes ago, atalante said:

I think you should be saying the Phoenicians arrived at Lisbon around 800 BC (not 1200 BC).

Yes, I think some have confused the mythical date the Phoenicians settled Cadiz/Gadir with the actual date of Bronze Age, indiginous settlements dating to ages earlier near/in Lisboa:

"Ancient authors refer to popular legends that the city of Lisbon was founded by the mythical hero Odysseus.^[8][9] The Estrímnios (in Portuguese) are given by some historians as the first known native people of Portugal.^[10] Called Oestrimni (Latin for "people of the far west") by the Romans, they extended their territory from present-day Galicia to the Algarve^[11] during the Late Bronze Age (1100–700 B.C.). These indigenous communities engaged in maritime and overland commerce, their fortified settlements dominating trade on the larger rivers and coastal estuaries of central southern Portugal.^[12][13]

^{https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lisbon}

But the numbered links in the quote don't add much.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Abramelin

[Thanos5150]

Was the Azores home to an ancient civilisation?

Cart ruts too...

[The Puzzler]

I haven’t read thru all this thread but I also think it’s not a bad idea for Atlantis, maybe you can get some more info from my thread a few years ago.

ATLANTIS FOUND (By Me) In The SAHARA

I forgot how to add the actual link lol, been a few years since I was here.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I haven’t read thru all this thread but I also think it’s not a bad idea for Atlantis, maybe you can get some more info from my thread a few years ago.

ATLANTIS FOUND (By Me) In The SAHARA

I forgot how to add the actual link lol, been a few years since I was here.

 

Here it is:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/124435-atlantis-found-by-me-in-the-sahara/#comments

[Harte]

14 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I haven’t read thru all this thread but I also think it’s not a bad idea for Atlantis, maybe you can get some more info from my thread a few years ago.

ATLANTIS FOUND (By Me) In The SAHARA

I forgot how to add the actual link lol, been a few years since I was here.

Harte 

[The Puzzler]

On 12/20/2022 at 4:51 PM, Thanos5150 said:

Personally I am of the mind Plato's story of Atlantis is allegorical fiction and if there was some kernel of truth it origins would be far far from Plato's account regardless. But if "Atlantis" was a "thing" before Plato-what was it really and where did the story come from? 

Here is perhaps a little fiction of my own, but I throw it our there for fun. 

Source.

Plato says Atlantis was located "in front of" the Pillars of Herakles, the Strait of Gibraltar, which technically NW Africa is.

It is interesting that later writers equated the "Atlanteans" and "Atlantis" with the Phoenician colonies of the Atlas mountain range which geographically would encompass this region:

On a map made by Herodotus (before Plato was born) he notes an area called "Atlantes?":

Which would have been the area these later writers attribute to the Phoenicians.

A contemporary of Herodotus was a Phoenician explorer Hanno the Navigator. His travels are known from a single source known as a "periplus" titled The Voyage of Hanno, commander of the Carthaginians, round the parts of Libya beyond the Pillars of Heracles, which he deposited in the Temple of Kronos. A map of Hanno's route:

Though it appears he travelled well farther down the coast of Africa, he supposedly founded a colony in the Bay of Arguin known as Cerne which is thought by some to be near the city of Agadir (see map above of Atlas Mountains as well):

Though this has yet to be verified archeologically, according to the Greek writer Strabo the city of Agadir was founded by the Phoenicians in 1104BC.

We are also told by Herodotus the Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa c. 600BC in 3yrs sponsored by the Egyptian pharaoh Necho which curiously would have been during the lifetime of Solon, credited of course by Plato as the source of the Atlantis tale.

A recent theory making the rounds is that the Guelb er-Richât, or "Richat structure", in NW Africa is the fabled Atlantis because of its similarity to Plato's description of Atlantis and its ringed walls:

The Richat structure is not man made, however, but rather a 90 million year old collapsed geological dome. Interestingly: "The Guelb er-Richât in the Mauritanian Adrar and, more particularly, the depression of its external ring are the sites of rather exceptional accumulations of Acheulean industries...."

Meaning this area was heavily occupied by a previous species of human, Erectus we would assume, somewhere between 1,700,000-130,000 years ago. Not the stuff of an advanced lost civilization but pretty cool nonetheless.

What is curious though, is that when we look at a map (scroll out to see the coast): HERE which is almost exactly due east from Agadir.

Here is some pure speculation-the Phoenicians were equated to some degree with "Atlantis" and "Atlanteans", it would appear even before Plato's time judging from Herodotus's map (which stands to reason there are other sources as well but I don't have the time right now). They travelled around the coast of Africa, perhaps as early as the 12th century BC, supposedly founding multiple sites in the Bay of Arguin which lies some 300 miles due west of the Richat structure.

Is it possible the Phoenicians travelled there and made a report of what they saw which to them the concentric circles looked the ruins of an ancient walled city? Abandoned long ago falling victim to some kind of cataclysm which the clearest suggestion would have been water related? A sunken city whose "walls" we know today were subjected to large amounts of sedimentation and erosion leaving deposits some 10-13ft thick just during the period of 15,000-8,000 years ago alone? Was this one of the fantastic "discoveries" they told the Egyptian king, their patron, upon their return-news of the day which found the waiting ear of Solon (or perhaps a later tale from Hanno which Plato pinned on Solon to give it credibility)? A story which centuries later Plato embellished with non-existent unknowable details and history to serve as the vehicle of his otherwise Noble Lie?

Just a thought.

With that being said, again, we must note that no one mentions any Atlantis as Plato does, but there were "Atlanteans" and an "Atlantis" (Atlantes). They were the Phoenicians and the place was the Atlas mountains stretching to the coast of Africa.    

Might be worthwhile getting my jollies from this thread some more x

Edited February 4, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Let’s go. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272375832_Archaeoseismological_Analysis_of_a_Late_Bronze_Age_Site_on_the_Alhama_de_Murcia_Fault_SE_Spain

[The Puzzler]

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/lost-roman-map-has-atlantis-at-eye-of-sahara-africa

2023 article.
 

[The Puzzler]

15 years ago.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Man, Maybe I was right after all these years…my original post idea was recorded by keithisco…so The Discovery Channel didn’t steal my idea” Gee, I might become a millionaire yet. 
 

January 25, 2023

Astonishing new details have been uncovered involving the Lost Ancient City of Atlantis, and the Eye of The Sahara. These details are so significant that the Richat Structure should without a doubt, be considered the most likely location of the lost capital city of Atlantis.

At least someone took me siriusly. The days lol x

Edited February 4, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Harte]

57 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/lost-roman-map-has-atlantis-at-eye-of-sahara-africa

2023 article.
 

The "lost Roman Map" this guy is on about was drawn in 1894 by George Cram and is his interpretation of the world as described by Herodotus in his "Histories."

You and I have already talked about those people, and how their namesake is entirely unrelated to Plato's King Atlas.

I know your source here quite well, and he is a liar.

Harte

[The Puzzler]

38 minutes ago, Harte said:

The "lost Roman Map" this guy is on about was drawn in 1894 by George Cram and is his interpretation of the world as described by Herodotus in his "Histories."

You and I have already talked about those people, and how their namesake is entirely unrelated to Plato's King Atlas.

I know your source here quite well, and he is a liar.

Harte

O…K I’ll sleep on this one for now 

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/lost-roman-map-has-atlantis-at-eye-of-sahara-africa

2023 article.
 

The red arrow in your image  points at the North Pole where some assumed Atlantis or Hyperborea was located. It has no connection with the Richat Structure.

[The Puzzler]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:20 AM, Abramelin said:

The red arrow in your image  points at the North Pole where some assumed Atlantis or Hyperborea was located. It has no connection with the Richat Structure.

Yeah, I see that now, what a load of b******s to add this map to a story like that.

The Septentrionalium Terrarum.

And Harte…I was talking about the map that Abe noticed…I do know about Herodotus’ maps, thankyou 

[The Puzzler]

It just seems to me, there was a rich civilisation on the edge if the whole world, in Libya or beyond and within the Atlas Mountains that extended down to the Richat structure,.when it was wetter, where the stories of Athena Oallas and Poseidon and the river of Triton and Atlas who held up the Western sky lived on islands, wonderful islands of the Hesperides…maybe Plato elaborated and wrote of what he imagined within his philosophies but maybe also it was based on a true place.

[The Puzzler]

Where Perseus flew with his winged sandals to he area of Western Libya, the Atlas Mountains, surrounded by Titans clashing and one eyed Gorgons…where Athena’s temple stood held sway by the beautiful Medusa, who was ravaged by another local Libyan God, Poseidon. Athena punished her, and Perseus killed her, taking the monstrous head back and incorporating it on Greek shields. Everything about it all says this area was more important in history than we know.

Edited July 12, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Maybe it is something to do with the Sea People, from Libya…

[The Puzzler]

If Amasis of Sais did have scribes who knew their history, this could have been inscribed on the temples. As they were at Medinet Habu but a different sides story…not much of the original Sais is found from then, but maybe they did know of this event. How they ended up in the Delta from their homeland. How Athena was related to them…how she arrived in Greece and instilled power into that nation, the Hellenes and the Athenians to withstand being completely obliterated, as much of the known Eastern Mediterranean was, maybe like Amasis ancestors, a kin of a kind, stepped up to bring prosperity to Egypt as an end result.

[Trelane]

44 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Maybe it is something to do with the Sea People, from Libya…

You mean Phoenicians? You and few others have been going round and round in that thread that has basically stated over and over again that it the stories of "sea peoples" was referring to Phoenicians.

[Essan]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

It just seems to me, there was a rich civilisation on the edge if the whole world, in Libya or beyond and within the Atlas Mountains that extended down to the Richat structure,.when it was wetter, where the stories of Athena Oallas and Poseidon and the river of Triton and Atlas who held up the Western sky lived on islands, wonderful islands of the Hesperides…maybe Plato elaborated and wrote of what he imagined within his philosophies but maybe also it was based on a true place.

When it was wetter?  That's thousands of years before the bronze age ......    So no.   Which probably explains why they left no trace of their existence  

And I doubt the Hesperides were in the midst of a barren desert.   Unless you are suggesting they were oases?

[The Puzzler]

41 minutes ago, Trelane said:

You mean Phoenicians? You and few others have been going round and round in that thread that has basically stated over and over again that it the stories of "sea peoples" was referring to Phoenicians.

No, I wasn’t alluding to the Phoenicians at all actually.