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The Phoenicians, Atlantis, and the Richat Structure


Thanos5150

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Posted (edited)

The term "continent" translates the Greek word ἤπειρος, meaning "landmass, terra firma", the proper name of Epirus and later especially used for Asia (i.e. Asia Minor).[77]

The first distinction between continents was made by ancient Greek mariners who gave the names Europe and Asia to the lands on either side of the waterways of the Aegean Sea,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent

the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

Edited by docyabut2
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Posted (edited)

This all the greeks knew of the ancient world map even in 300bc, the time of Plato

Reconstruction of world map according to Dicaearchus (300 B.C.)

111.JPEG

 

Edited by docyabut2
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20 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

This all the greeks knew of the ancient world map even in 300bc, the time of Plato

Reconstruction of world map according to Dicaearchus (300 B.C.)

111.JPEG

 

No

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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

The "Eye of Africa" isn't located where your map puts it, Atalante.

It's a lot more to the west, near the Atlantic coast.

578556d0dd0895ba408b497a.jpg.98ee6b5e927e8f99cba9012742e655f1.jpg

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36 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

This all the greeks knew of the ancient world map even in 300bc, the time of Plato

Reconstruction of world map according to Dicaearchus (300 B.C.)

111.JPEG

 

The Phoenicians knew a lot more.

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9 hours ago, Abramelin said:

So you and Harte both assume the ancient Greek did the same?

No.
Your own screenshot shows they had several words for it.
IIRC, it doesn't even show all of them. 

We have (basically) two.

Harte

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9 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Plato sure comes across as being very meticulous with his use of words.

That we have become sloppy doesn't necessarily mean the ancient Greeks were too.

I wouldn't be too sure until I learned why he used 4 different terms for sea, and what he was indicating by doing so.
A translator doesn't merely change Greek words into English words. There is an effort to tell it like the author.
I said to Rojack that the use of the word "ocean" in the English translation was to sort of convey that Plato had used a different term for "sea" there and the translator didn't want to just translate all four different words as if they were the same word - because they weren't written as the same word originally.
Harte

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The "Eye of Africa" isn't located where your map puts it, Atalante.

It's a lot more to the west, near the Atlantic coast.

Yes.  A slopy use of the phrase "Eye of the Sahara" was inserted in that map.  

Here is a cleaner map of the Atlas Basin, still by Zhang.  

IJH-05-00275-g002a.png

The point I intended to make is that your post for what the Plato Project suggests as an itinerary of Hanno -- resembles the outside border of the Atlas Basin.

You posted:  

annon.jpg

Edited by atalante
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15 hours ago, Essan said:


Personally I wouldn't take the word of an anonymous person posting on a forum.   To accurately map out ancient lakes and water courses under the Sahara would take some serious surveying work and is not the sort of think you can do remotely.    And you cannot identify a dried up, sand covered, waterfall from a satellite image.   You need to be there on the ground and excavate the geology.

Hi Essan

Have wondered if some culture that had existed in the Mega Lake Chad area and disappeared with climate change as it was quite lush in the Green Sahara

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Harte said:

No.
Your own screenshot shows they had several words for it.
IIRC, it doesn't even show all of them. 

We have (basically) two.

Harte

That's because they had different words for different kind of 'seas'.

That's the message.

Edited by Abramelin
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9 hours ago, Harte said:

I wouldn't be too sure until I learned why he used 4 different terms for sea, and what he was indicating by doing so.
A translator doesn't merely change Greek words into English words. There is an effort to tell it like the author.
I said to Rojack that the use of the word "ocean" in the English translation was to sort of convey that Plato had used a different term for "sea" there and the translator didn't want to just translate all four different words as if they were the same word - because they weren't written as the same word originally.
Harte

I think we need to read the book. The Plato Project site only shows titbits.

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On 4/20/2024 at 1:33 AM, Abramelin said:

You remember who finally deciphered Linear B?

Not a linguist.

Was it... Me?  Wait, no... I only deciphered Linear A.  My bad. 😕

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

That's because they had different words for different kind of 'seas'.

That's the message.

I believe I said that.
After all, a translator has to write the thing in the other language - i.e. English here, so he picks different words when the original picks different words.
Those different Greek words aren't so different.
One of them is "open sea." One of them has to do with the depth, etc.
You have to take into account that Okeanos was an entity. It would be odd to talk about sailing on Okeanos, you'd say you reached it, or you crossed it.


You could sail beyond Gibraltar and still not reach Okeanos, but the translator has to call it something, and in English it's the Atlantic Ocean.

Harte

Edited by Harte
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2 hours ago, Harte said:

I believe I said that.
After all, a translator has to write the thing in the other language - i.e. English here, so he picks different words when the original picks different words.
Those different Greek words aren't so different.
One of them is "open sea." One of them has to do with the depth, etc.
You have to take into account that Okeanos was an entity. It would be odd to talk about sailing on Okeanos, you'd say you reached it, or you crossed it.


You could sail beyond Gibraltar and still not reach Okeanos, but the translator has to call it something, and in English it's the Atlantic Ocean.

Harte

And chosing from just a couple of English (or Dutch or German or French etc.) words to translate a multitude of Greek words created the confusion. That's what the writer was about.

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What personally intrigued me was, that the writer claims he had never even heard of the Richat Structure or the Eye of Africa/the Sahara, but ended up there through his calculations.

Of course we'll have to take his word for it that he had never heard of the structure.

I'm not saying he proved Atlantis existed, but very maybe he found something that may have - through the Phoenicians - inspired Plato.

But then a problem remains: the structure is invisible from ground-level. Or did it look different long ago, more recognizable as a circular structure, to the Phoenicians?

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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

And chosing from just a couple of English (or Dutch or German or French etc.) words to translate a multitude of Greek words created the confusion. That's what the writer was about.

It's a one-off unless you can show classicists that support what he says.

Personally, I'm sure it's bull****.

Harte

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Harte said:

It's a one-off unless you can show classicists that support what he says.

Personally, I'm sure it's bull****.

Harte

I get the impression he did it not just by himself:

Quote:

1.2 Semantics
The ancient words, phrases, sentences and paragraphs were scrutinised so as to determine their true connotation as accurately as possible. This was in collaboration with specialists from linguistic disciplines. The time given to retranslating a short section from Timaeus (234 lines) and all of Critias (582 lines) from scratch, exceeded 4.000 hours. The vocabulary, grammar and syntax were processed through referring to a number of authoritative dictionaries and lexicons. Meanings as used by Plato and by other ancient writers from the time of Homer were drawn upon. Many words that were considered as crucially defining were re-examined in context so as to conclusively arrive at their intended meaning.

https://platoproject.gr/mom-1/

Edited by Abramelin
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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I get the impression he did it not just by himself:

Quote:

1.2 Semantics
The ancient words, phrases, sentences and paragraphs were scrutinised so as to determine their true connotation as accurately as possible. This was in collaboration with specialists from linguistic disciplines. The time given to retranslating a short section from Timaeus (234 lines) and all of Critias (582 lines) from scratch, exceeded 4.000 hours. The vocabulary, grammar and syntax were processed through referring to a number of authoritative dictionaries and lexicons. Meanings as used by Plato and by other ancient writers from the time of Homer were drawn upon. Many words that were considered as crucially defining were re-examined in context so as to conclusively arrive at their intended meaning.

https://platoproject.gr/mom-1/

I'm not gonna try to verify that he has any support.
You do it.

Harte

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Okay, I spent just a few minutes and found this at the Plato Project:
image.thumb.png.25e6f92e7a954652940f4d01cc475d66.png

This is flat out wrong.
Aristotle was Plato's pupil, and Aristotle actually states that the Pillars are the Strait of Gibraltar.
image.png.4ca96563f7284ad20516a83acccea0ae.png

De mundo : Aristotle : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I'd also point out that in Critias, the Egyptian priest actually says "... that YOU call the Pillars of Heracles."
Whatever anyone pre- Solon thought about the Pillars therefore doesn't matter.

Harte

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12 minutes ago, Harte said:

Okay, I spent just a few minutes and found this at the Plato Project:
image.thumb.png.25e6f92e7a954652940f4d01cc475d66.png

This is flat out wrong.
Aristotle was Plato's pupil, and Aristotle actually states that the Pillars are the Strait of Gibraltar.
image.png.4ca96563f7284ad20516a83acccea0ae.png

De mundo : Aristotle : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I'd also point out that in Critias, the Egyptian priest actually says "... that YOU call the Pillars of Heracles."
Whatever anyone pre- Solon thought about the Pillars therefore doesn't matter.

Harte

Nice find.

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1 hour ago, Harte said:

I'm not gonna try to verify that he has any support.
You do it.

Harte

I'll have to buy the book. And I can't find it on Amazon and such.

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26 minutes ago, Harte said:

Okay, I spent just a few minutes and found this at the Plato Project:
image.thumb.png.25e6f92e7a954652940f4d01cc475d66.png

This is flat out wrong.
Aristotle was Plato's pupil, and Aristotle actually states that the Pillars are the Strait of Gibraltar.
image.png.4ca96563f7284ad20516a83acccea0ae.png

De mundo : Aristotle : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I'd also point out that in Critias, the Egyptian priest actually says "... that YOU call the Pillars of Heracles."
Whatever anyone pre- Solon thought about the Pillars therefore doesn't matter.

Harte

1. Aristotle was maybe not Plato's best pupil;

2. The translation is wrong;

3. Others have suggested those 'pillars' were formerly inside the Med.

So, what place/area did the Greeks call 'The Pillars of Heracles" around Plato's time?

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Harte, we need to read the guy's book. To see his references and such.

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3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

1. Aristotle was maybe not Plato's best pupil;

2. The translation is wrong;

3. Others have suggested those 'pillars' were formerly inside the Med.

So, what place/area did the Greeks call 'The Pillars of Heracles" around Plato's time?

I don’t know if this will help but in Book 3 of his Natural History Pliny the Elder gives the name to the two promontories that flank the Straits.

 

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18 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I'll have to buy the book. And I can't find it on Amazon and such.

That in itself is not a good sign.

Harte

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