GOP propose 30% national sales tax

[preacherman76]

If this is the same fair tax as the one I heard about back in 08, it would only effect non essential items. 
 

I’d like to see the exact details before forming an overall opinion. I will say though, I think 30% is steep. You can’t raise the price of food 30% for a single mom waitress who pays little to no income tax to begin with. 
 

I think a fair tax is a great idea, if done correctly. I look at my check from time to time and feel like I just got robbed. I get the need for people to pay some type of tax, but they certainly should not get 35% of the money I worked for. 
 

And really that’s just the start. That same money that actually makes it to your account will be taxed again and again.
 

Then when I die, and try to leave something for my boys, they will take half of that. Money I worked for, got robbed every week and just took it, and then dare take half of what was left of that when I try to give my kids the fruit of my already heavily taxed labor. 
 

And for what? Anyone who takes a serious look at the US government’s budget would be baffled at what they spend money on. And it STILL isn’t enough. We still have to borrow trillions. 
 

Our entire tax system and budget needs to be thrown in the trash and started over from scratch. 
 

Can’t do that though. Even suggest that the government spend less money and they start screaming about how it will be the end of the world if they don’t get, what was it this time around? 1.7 trillion dollars. 

[Myles]

16 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

How much toilet paper does a wealthy person buy compared to a middle class person?  

How much taxes will a middle class family pay on a new Buick Encore?

How much taxes will a wealthy family pay on a new corvette?

Those are the kind of things that will enable something like this to tax the wealthy more.  

[preacherman76]

I can see in this article that Dems are already trying to make people afraid of the idea. But no details of the actual plan is in it. They might be right, it may be something to fear. If a loaf of bread is 30% higher for everyone, this isn’t going to work. 
 

The fact that we don’t know the exact details though, makes me think it’s very possible it isn’t us who should be afraid, but it’s those who oppose it for their own reasons are. 
 

 

[Agent0range]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

How much taxes will a middle class family pay on a new Buick Encore?

How much taxes will a wealthy family pay on a new corvette?

Those are the kind of things that will enable something like this to tax the wealthy more.  

The majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and pay a very low tax rate.  A 30% sales tax would have them paying more than they are now.  Considering the bill also eliminates the capital gains tax, I'm pretty sure they wealthy wouldn't mind paying a little extra for a Corvette.

[preacherman76]

19 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

The majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and pay a very low tax rate.  A 30% sales tax would have them paying more than they are now.  Considering the bill also eliminates the capital gains tax, I'm pretty sure they wealthy wouldn't mind paying a little extra for a Corvette.

I wouldn’t go that far. People who are making a paycheck are paying their 30-35%. It would be huge for them to not pay an income tax. 
 

Assuming this new tax is only for non necessities, if they so choose, they won’t have to pay any federal tax at all. 
 

In the article it also says that folks who make under a certain amount will get a relief check. So it’s kinda like they still get a income tax return, without paying any income taxes 

[Myles]

5 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

I can see in this article that Dems are already trying to make people afraid of the idea. But no details of the actual plan is in it. They might be right, it may be something to fear. If a loaf of bread is 30% higher for everyone, this isn’t going to work. 
 

The fact that we don’t know the exact details though, makes me think it’s very possible it isn’t us who should be afraid, but it’s those who oppose it for their own reasons are. 
 

 

I only support the research to be done to know how it can be made to work.   People buy too much unnecessary stuff all the time.  I would not tax food.

[Myles]

1 hour ago, Agent0range said:

The majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and pay a very low tax rate.  A 30% sales tax would have them paying more than they are now.  Considering the bill also eliminates the capital gains tax, I'm pretty sure they wealthy wouldn't mind paying a little extra for a Corvette.

That is true, but those are the dumb people.   The majority of Americans spend beyond their means.  

 

A little extra?  It would be around a $25,000 tax on a new Vette.   The wealthy would be paying more taxes than the poor.   That is a good thing.  

Edited January 21 by Myles

[Agent0range]

6 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

I wouldn’t go that far. People who are making a paycheck are paying their 30-35%. It would be huge for them to not pay an income tax. 

That's not true at all.  The median income in the US is $70K.  That falls in to the 12% income tax bracket.  This bill doesn't get rid of insurance, SS, state income tax, and other deductions.

[DieChecker]

30% seems steep, but if it includes state, local and federal, it might be not too bad. For the middle class and upper class anyway. I have several lower class friends. Single moms working part time, and elderly retirees. They certainly do pay some, such as SSI, but I think 30% would break their banks.

How about everyone is issued a "purchase card", which is proof of identity, and allows you to use a "graduated" tax system. If you don't have a card (illegal immigrant) you pay the 30% on EVERYTHING. Swipe your card and the poor pay 10%, and the rich pay 50%. Use another person's card and you get a week in jail. Buy stuff for another person excessively, and that's fraud. 

Everyone pays a fairer amount. The taxes get collected. Criminals and illegals pay the standard 30%. Tourists would get a tourist card to swipe to pay no tax.

Why is it the politicians can write thousands of pages of text for a Bill, but they have zero imagination on how to compromise to actually get things done?

Edited January 22 by DieChecker

[Raptor Witness]

The problem with this idea, is it's snake oil. It promises a cure for what ails U.S., when there is none on earth. The United States has become a fraudulent enterprise. We don't pay our bills, because we can't. The military industrial complex saw to that, as Eisenhower warned, upon his departure.

This kind of evil isn't fixed with a different kind of tax, but a different kind of taxon. It's fixed, when a Higher Power destroys what cannot self correct, or refuses to. So it will be for the United States. There will be no safety in the coming days, weeks, years. 

Google in quotes: "make manifest destiny a memory"

[Portre]

On 1/20/2023 at 10:47 AM, HSlim said:

Not a damn thing he can actually deliver considering the slim majority in the House and being the minority in the senate. 

The insurrectionist caucus will use these votes to raise funds.

[HSlim]

On 1/21/2023 at 11:26 AM, Myles said:

That is true, but those are the dumb people.   The majority of Americans spend beyond their means.  

 

A little extra?  It would be around a $25,000 tax on a new Vette.   The wealthy would be paying more taxes than the poor.   That is a good thing.  

I'm sorry, "dumb?" Care to clarify that? I have a decent job as does my wife and we mostly live paycheck to paycheck,  don't spend much on extra unnecessary items nor do we live above my means.  I was fortunate enough to get into a house before the prices skyrocketed.  But I also have 3 teenagers and they have expenses as well.  I'm so tired of hearing someone say that we're "dumb" because we're stretched thin, so I'd love to hear what makes someone think that

[F3SS]

34 minutes ago, HSlim said:

I'm sorry, "dumb?" Care to clarify that? I have a decent job as does my wife and we mostly live paycheck to paycheck,  don't spend much on extra unnecessary items nor do we live above my means.  I was fortunate enough to get into a house before the prices skyrocketed.  But I also have 3 teenagers and they have expenses as well.  I'm so tired of hearing someone say that we're "dumb" because we're stretched thin, so I'd love to hear what makes someone think that

I agree dumb isn't always choice word. Definitely in some cases it is. Thats just the odds of human nature. It's usually just about a lack of awareness and education in financial literacy. I'm in a similar situation as you but I can use hindsight and the ignoring of advice earlier in life to trace my steps to where I am now. It's all about the choices we make in life including to have expensive ass kids. Two people making the same money for 20 years can end up in wildly different places financially because of the choices they made. I'm not saying everything is within our control but it's usually personal choices that land us where we are.

[Gromdor]

On 1/21/2023 at 4:47 AM, Myles said:

Nearly the same, except they buy the expensive kind.   So the wealthy will be paying more taxes on toilet paper than the middle class.

The millionaires I know live the same lifestyle as the "common" folk, eating the same foods, and driving the same car.  Doing this (for the bulk of them) is part of the reason why they are millionaires.  

[Gromdor]

On 1/21/2023 at 8:23 AM, preacherman76 said:

I can see in this article that Dems are already trying to make people afraid of the idea. But no details of the actual plan is in it. They might be right, it may be something to fear. If a loaf of bread is 30% higher for everyone, this isn’t going to work. 
 

The fact that we don’t know the exact details though, makes me think it’s very possible it isn’t us who should be afraid, but it’s those who oppose it for their own reasons are. 
 

 

But we do....... I linked the actual bill from 2019 that they are going to ressurect and vote on:  https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/25/text

I am actually quite sad that noone bothered to read it.  

Edit to add: Here is what is says under the sales tax:

 (2) To tax all consumption of goods and services in the United States once, without exception, but only once.

Edited January 22 by Gromdor

[F3SS]

22 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

But we do....... I linked the actual bill from 2019 that they are going to ressurect and vote on:  https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/25/text

I am actually quite sad that noone bothered to read it.  

Edit to add: Here is what is says under the sales tax:

 (2) To tax all consumption of goods and services in the United States once, without exception, but only once.

So that means used cars would have no sales tax? Used appliances, anything. Collectively, that would save a ton in consumer taxes.

[preacherman76]

30 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

But we do....... I linked the actual bill from 2019 that they are going to ressurect and vote on:  https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/25/text

I am actually quite sad that noone bothered to read it.  

Edit to add: Here is what is says under the sales tax:

 (2) To tax all consumption of goods and services in the United States once, without exception, but only once.

Thanks. 
 

I say lower the tax on necessities and it might be a good deal. Especially with the poorest among us still getting a check as though they paid income taxes. 

[Tatetopa]

On 1/21/2023 at 6:09 AM, Myles said:

How much taxes will a middle class family pay on a new Buick Encore?

How much taxes will a wealthy family pay on a new corvette?

Those are the kind of things that will enable something like this to tax the wealthy more.  

Yes true.   With your income, why did you even care if gas cost $5 a gallon?  On my income and relatively small amount I drive,  I don't care if it goes to $10 a gallon.  It won't hurt me.  Will it hurt you?   For some people who have drive 20-30 miles to work every day, it hurts bigly.  When you fall below  an income level, there is nothing left to pay that extra $5 a gallon.  Some people will face that.

Every dollar a low or middle class person makes will be taxed at 30%.  How often do they buy a used car, a used refrigerator, or washing machine; every few years?  How often do they have to buy food, gas, and pay a house payment or rent? 

What do you think a 30% tax on new appliances and cars will do to sales and the economy?  How many new refrigerators does a wealthy person need?  Enough to keep the factory running?

If a wealthy family puts $10k in a savings account every month, that does not get taxed they get to keep it all and compound the interest. It is a massive transfer of wealth.

Forget about all of the emotional arguments and look at economics. Wealth will leave the lower income classes (and that includes us) and accumulate at the upper levels even faster.  Look at Central America, look at Asia, look at Africa.  There are millionaires and billionaires in those sh**hole countries too.  Doesn't make those countries economic powerhouses or even great.  The wealthy go to Davos to talk policy that favors themselves and spend their leisure  time outside of their home countries  Doesn't give their middle classes a better life even if they are 10 times as rich as their poor neighbors. Their standard of living sucks compared to ours.

 

 

 

[Gromdor]

32 minutes ago, F3SS said:

So that means used cars would have no sales tax? Used appliances, anything. Collectively, that would save a ton in consumer taxes.

Probably.  We still have supply and demand that will modify prices too.  So I expect used goods to increase in value.  It would be good for the environment as we would manufacture less and reuse/recycle more.

[Gromdor]

32 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Thanks. 
 

I say lower the tax on necessities and it might be a good deal. Especially with the poorest among us still getting a check as though they paid income taxes. 

That's in there: 

“SEC. 301. FAMILY CONSUMPTION ALLOWANCE.

“Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be in an amount equal to the product of—

“(1) the rate of tax imposed by section 101, and

“(2) the monthly poverty level.

They have to register once a year. Prove citizenship, residence, income, etc..  So kind of like filing for income tax.  An agency would handle this.  The IRS (Internal Revnue Service) would be gone and some other agency would handle it. (maybe the ISR- Internal Service of Revenue).

[Tatetopa]

Economics.  OK I want to pay less taxes.

This proposal does not include state and municipal sales taxes,  I would still have to pay those.  So its 30% plus state and local.  It doesn't include current gas taxes, would it add 30% to those?

How much do I pay the government, how much do I pay my boss?

I knew exactly to the  dollar, because to maintain my position in an consulting engineering team, I had to generate 2.5 times  my salary.  We all knew monthly where we stood.

No more corporate tax?  Then do I get to keep that additional money or does the corporation just smile and keep it?  Would they reduce the amount of revenue  I have to earn or keep my goals the same?  

[DieChecker]

I think one problem with a 30% flat tax is that the next guy will get into office and change it to 31% and then 33% and so on. It will never go down, just up. 

[Gromdor]

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I think one problem with a 30% flat tax is that the next guy will get into office and change it to 31% and then 33% and so on. It will never go down, just up. 

Nah, it won't happen like that.   The bill presented would have the sales tax automatically adjust itself according to a formula.  The next guy doesn't have to do anything.

[preacherman76]

On 1/21/2023 at 9:44 PM, DieChecker said:

30% seems steep, but if it includes state, local and federal, it might be not too bad. For the middle class and upper class anyway. I have several lower class friends. Single moms working part time, and elderly retirees. They certainly do pay some, such as SSI, but I think 30% would break their banks.

How about everyone is issued a "purchase card", which is proof of identity, and allows you to use a "graduated" tax system. If you don't have a card (illegal immigrant) you pay the 30% on EVERYTHING. Swipe your card and the poor pay 10%, and the rich pay 50%. Use another person's card and you get a week in jail. Buy stuff for another person excessively, and that's fraud. 

Everyone pays a fairer amount. The taxes get collected. Criminals and illegals pay the standard 30%. Tourists would get a tourist card to swipe to pay no tax.

Why is it the politicians can write thousands of pages of text for a Bill, but they have zero imagination on how to compromise to actually get things done?

50%?? You’d have 99% of rich folks buying most of the things they buy directly from foreign countries. 

[Gromdor]

45 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

50%?? You’d have 99% of rich folks buying most of the things they buy directly from foreign countries. 

Why wouldn't they do that at 1% if they had the ability? One percent of a million dollars is $10,000.00 after all.  It's taking advantage of even the small things that takes one over their peers, financially.

Those of us who have traveled have seen the "Duty Free" stores.  Their whole gimmick is selling stuff tax free.

The 30% sales tax could help out places like Mexico and Canada where US citizens can easily travel and buy things at a discount.

I know Brazilians do a shopping migration over to Paraguay to buy electronics.  Smuggling is just a way of life at Friendship Bridge - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

It was funny when I went.  Brazilians have a maximum they could buy and bring over back home.  But the border guard didn't ask me or check through the stuff I bought.  My wife and in-laws asked why and the border guards shrugged and said, "He's American, he's allowed to bring in whatever he wants because the law applies to Brazilians only...."

Edited January 28 by Gromdor