Carbon Dating Egypt's Oldest Pyramids

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

As discussed at length before, there is nothing in Egyptian literature that credits Imhotep as the "creator" of Djoser's pyramid. 

Sekhemkhet. Unfinished. 

Sanakht is not credited with building a pyramid. Some suggest his tomb of the large mastaba K2 at Beit-Khallaf. K1 perhaps Djoser's or a cenotaph.  

The Layer Pyramid at Zawyet el'Aryan, unfinished, is attributed by some to Khaba but this is purely speculative based on his name being found in nearby Mastaba Z500 which is also thought may have been his actual tomb. Quoting myself from the linked thread above:

Another pyramid speculatively attributed to the next 3rd Dynasty pharaoh Khaba, contained no sarcophagus in which the passage to the burial chamber is so narrow it is thought a sarcophagus could not be passed through regardless. Aspects of the pyramid imply it was never finished and regardless of who built it it is apparent no pharaoh was buried there.  

He "may" have built the tower core, but likely not the outer true pyramid layer which despite the curious absence of his name among numerous graffiti in the associated work camp, the greater context implies this was done by Sneferu. Regardless, it is thought by some, like Lehner, Medium was not an intended tomb for anyone but rather as discussed before cenotaph. 

2.5 maybe plus perhaps a few of the southern pyramids. 

 

Whether or not they built these pyramids that their names are associated with, the Egyptians themselves were building pyramids and had been building pyramids for over a hundred years.

So they weren't exactly novices at the work or the planning.

 

[WVK]

10 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Unfortunately some of the pictures have crapped out, but the corbel vault is the many smoking guns of continuity.

Are there any “mysteries” regarding the construction of a corbel vault?  Regarding the Kings chamber how were the 50-80 ton blocks placed in the ceiling and relieving chambers?  You can’t slide the into position over a void.  

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, WVK said:

Are there any “mysteries” regarding the construction of a corbel vault?  Regarding the Kings chamber how were the 50-80 ton blocks placed in the ceiling and relieving chambers?  You can’t slide the into position over a void.  

Just put them on the side of the supports and push-pull them to the position you want. Think of an empty space with two hard edges  and how you would put items to cover the open space by placing them on the two hard edges. As the limestone tiers were built up the next level was brought up.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Hanslune

[WVK]

10 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Just put them on the side of the supports and push-pull them to the position you want. Think of an empty space with two hard edges  and how you would put items to cover the open space by placing them on the two hard edges. As the limestone tiers were built up the next level was brought up.

So slide them in at the sides then slide them over. Why not.

[Thanos5150]

2 hours ago, WVK said:

Are there any “mysteries” regarding the construction of a corbel vault?

No more so than the KC. Regardless of one's beliefs, or how "mysterious" or not, there is no doubt the same people built all of them. It has been said so many times you'd think it would start to stick, but G1 does not exist in a vacuum. To answer how they built G1 you need to answer how they built all of them.  

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 Regarding the Kings chamber how were the 50-80 ton blocks placed in the ceiling and relieving chambers?  You can’t slide the into position over a void.  

More like 40-60 tons. So if you can't slide them in position over a void then you would probably do what...? Maybe create formwork to span the void? Or slide them horizontally one side to the other using the walls as support? If you were into sliding that is. You could also lift them into place.

I am the first to argue there was a higher order of tools and materials available to the DE than is attributed to them which I have argued must have been on par with the Greeks/Romans. So I get it. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

10 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Whether or not they built these pyramids that their names are associated with, the Egyptians themselves were building pyramids and had been building pyramids for over a hundred years.

So they weren't exactly novices at the work or the planning.

Maybe just leave it at that then.  

[WVK]

16 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

No more so than the KC. Regardless of one's beliefs, or how "mysterious" or not, there is no doubt the same people built all of them. It has been said so many times you'd think it would start to stick, but G1 does not exist in a vacuum. To answer how they built G1 you need to answer how they built all of them.  

More like 40-60 tons. So if you can't slide them in position over a void then you would probably do what...? Maybe create formwork to span the void? If you were into sliding that is. You could also lift them into place.

I am the first to argue there was a higher order of tools and materials available to the DE than is attributed to them which I have argued must have been on par with the Greeks/Romans. So I get it. 

Higher order tools and material, anything specific in mind?

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, WVK said:

Higher order tools and material, anything specific in mind?

Probably this:

[WVK]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

Probably this:

I knew it! Power for the laser saw.

[Hanslune]

6 hours ago, WVK said:

So slide them in at the sides then slide them over. Why not.

It's one possibilty, or fill the void with sand or a wooden structure and place them - sliding seems easier.

[Hanslune]

4 hours ago, WVK said:

I knew it! Power for the laser saw.

I've seen many such discussions - the main problem in 'resolving' the mystery or answer the question, 'how it was done',  is that there is no way to verify that whatever you come up is what the Egyptians actually did.

[Thanos5150]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:51 PM, Kenemet said:

Sneferu's pyramids had something similar.  

They did not....

All of the BP and RP chambers (and Meidum) have corbel vaulted ceilings. G1's KC has a flat roof and the QC has a gabled roof. 

BP:

 

RP:

G1:

Very different. The only thing "similar" is the use of the corbel vault for the GG. 

Discussed at length in multiple posts HERE.  

Edited January 30, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

7 hours ago, WVK said:

Higher order tools and material, anything specific in mind?

Khasekhemwy- Bridge to the Pyramid Age

[Hanslune]

I remember one useful tid-bit from a discussion on USENET. This concerned the amount of time needed to build the pyramids. A person suggested that Khufu'd father and grandfather might have started to clear the great pyramid sites at Giza in their life times, and began cutting and storing limestone, with the idea the extended family would construct tombs there. If that happened that would add more time to the equations about work loads. Of course that was just speculation.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Hanslune

[Thanos5150]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:53 PM, cormac mac airt said:

There’s no one-off theory nor would one need to exist as the Egyptians had some 600 years to perfect their techniques, starting with small mastabas and such and working their way up. 

Up until Djoser (*) and the building of his pyramid complex, the DE constructed out of mud brick, wood, and reeds. Khasekhemwy- Bridge to the Pyramid Age. 

The first mud brick mastabas built in the 1st Dynasty were massive and appeared without precedent en masse up and down the Nile (including Giza).  

While working with stone was nothing new to the AE, namely their prolific stoneware industry, the use of stone in constructing free standing architecture prior to Djoser did not exist in Egypt with at best the seeds being planted with his predecessor Khasekhemy. So as far as working in stone, no, not 600yrs. This:

Just happened. 

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There’s that and the fact that by modern construction standards it’s rather sloppily built. 

....? 

The core is quite "sloppy", as there was no reason it needed to be otherwise, but the rest as well documented was built far exceeding modern construction standards

Edited January 30, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

Quoting myself from elsewhere, 2016:

One thing I would add to this is that a recent RCD study drastically reduced the length of the Naqada period suggesting it began sometime between 3800-3700BC and not 4400BC as previously suggested.

Carbon dating shows ancient Egypt’s rapid expansion.
An absolute chronology for early Egypt using radiocarbon dating and Bayesian statistical modelling

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During the Predynastic period, progress “becomes faster and faster, so much happens”, he says. “In the last two centuries, around 3200 BC, it is breathtaking.”

The study notes:

Quote

Our dates for the beginning of Naqada IIIA centre [Dynasty 0] on the late thirty-fourth century BCE (table 1) and coincide remarkably closely with the first evidence for cuneiform script in Mesopotamia [30]....

Consequently, our data support a shortening of the Egyptian Predynastic, the period over which state formation occurred, to between 600 and 700 calendar years (table 1). This finding accentuates a contrast with neighbouring southwest Asia, where the transition from cereal production to state formation took somewhere between four and five millennia. It reinforces the suggestion that, despite their geographical proximity, prehistoric societies in Africa and Asia followed very different trajectories to political centralization....

Yes, quite different. They don't say it, but the vibe I get from these comments is an allusion to the fact they had help from Mesopotamia.

When all of these RCD studies are considered, what they show is the OK on average is about 200yrs older, some sites even older, with the Naqada period beginning some 600-700yrs later where the Dynasty 0/1 period represents an uncharacteristically rapid explosion of high culture. These models and dates all provide for ranges of probability which it is quite possible the period between Dynasty 0 (according to this study c. avg 3300BC) and Giza is even shorter. If we consider the average of the '95 RCD dates of G1 at c. 2750BC we are looking at a period of less than 600yrs, perhaps much less, between the 1st Elite tombs [Dynasty 0/Naqada III] and the Great Pyramid.