'War scares us stiff': Germany's reluctance to arm Ukraine is rooted in its bloodstained past

[Grim Reaper 6]

They grew up on opposite sides of the Iron Curtain. In Communist East Germany, Sahra Wagenknecht learned as a child that Russia was an ally and the United States a threat to peace, while 250 miles away, Gerd Bauz lived near an American military base that he was told was there to protect West Germany from a feared Warsaw Pact invasion.

A recent poll showed Germans to be fairly evenly divided over whether to provide Ukraine with tanks, with 46% in favor and 43% opposed. A majority of those opposed are supporters of Scholz’s center-left Social Democratic Party, which has made things awkward for the chancellor.

'War scares us stiff': Germany's reluctance to arm Ukraine is rooted in its bloodstained past (msn.com)

[+and-then]

I can respect the Germans who are being cautious.  I didn't see any demographics mentioned but my guess is that the older folks are the most cautious because they have the clearest memories, handed down by parents and grandparents of how absolutely brutal wars can be.  It's truly a fine line to walk between standing strong against an invader, or responding with actions that could escalate things out of control.  The worst part of all of this is that it could have been avoided.  We were already equipping and training up Ukraine's military since the 2014 seizure of Crimea and that could have continued indefinitely to prepare them and to make it clear to adversaries that the cost of going to war with Ukraine would be heavy.  

My opinion on this war is pretty simple.  Like him or hate him, Putin had been repeating the same message for about 20 years.  NATO should not encroach on Russia's borders.  Those who say he had no right to make such demands should be honest with themselves about how DC or Brussels would react if Putin or Xi - or both - began equipping and training military forces to be literally on our doorstep, say in Mexico or Canada.  I think it's pretty clear that we wouldn't stand around and do nothing in that situation yet we expect a former great power to do so based on trusting us not to keep advancing or to ever attack them.  

Now, we are at war and neither Putin nor NATO can be seen to "lose".  So... where does that leave us?  I totally disregard the bombastic and dismissive rhetoric about Russia being unable to prevail in this conflict.  Wars are decided by a lot of different variables but the most important is the will to stay the course and both sides seem to think the other guy will blink first.  Putin and some of his ministers have said that this addition of advanced tanks is an escalation that makes it clear that NATO is at war with Russia.  That pronouncement is almost totally ignored in the western media.  Meanwhile, Zelenskyy is already begging for 4th gen fighters and their anti-air missiles.  I guess we are to believe these pilots can switch from one cockpit to another and not lose any efficiency or effectiveness.  The thing about wars is that they happen very slowly, then all at once.  

[odas]

2 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

They grew up on opposite sides of the Iron Curtain. In Communist East Germany, Sahra Wagenknecht learned as a child that Russia was an ally and the United States a threat to peace, while 250 miles away, Gerd Bauz lived near an American military base that he was told was there to protect West Germany from a feared Warsaw Pact invasion.

A recent poll showed Germans to be fairly evenly divided over whether to provide Ukraine with tanks, with 46% in favor and 43% opposed. A majority of those opposed are supporters of Scholz’s center-left Social Democratic Party, which has made things awkward for the chancellor.

'War scares us stiff': Germany's reluctance to arm Ukraine is rooted in its bloodstained past (msn.com)

The demographyc of those pro or con is, as you already described, along the old german east/west border and not along age groups as someone tries to push that agenda ( old people-wise people, my asss. Old people start wars, not youngsters who are then forced to fight the old man's wars.)

The doctrin amongst old and young germans from the former east is still the old doctrine that sees the west as the acctual enemy, not the russians. The vast majority of the AFD, far right and neonazi groups have a stronghold in the former east german area. This could have been avoided with jobs and companies moving en mass to the eastside after the unification but unfortunately companies decided to stay mostly in the west. Many germans moved to the westside from the east for better opportunities hence leaving that side less livable with less opportunities. And, as usual, areas like that become a breeding ground for extremists like everywhere else in the world.

Also, take in account that millions of russian-germans moved from russia to germany in the last 30 years but still having family in russia. No wonder the demographyc that favours USA vs Russia has changed.

[godnodog]

someone should ask Sahra if she was taught as well about the USSR atrocities committed, for example in Poland.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

On 1/26/2023 at 11:34 AM, and-then said:

Like him or hate him, Putin had been repeating the same message for about 20 years.  NATO should not encroach on Russia's borders. 

So they made the choice to go in and get even closer to NATO countries bordering Ukraine?

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:08 PM, godnodog said:

someone should ask Sahra if she was taught as well about the USSR atrocities committed, for example in Poland.

You, know my friend you do make a great point and Poland. While any single atrocity is one too many it is very difficult to compare any atrocities committed during WWII to the atrocities committed by Gemany. When, I was growing up, my father was adiment that I should be aware that the Holocaust was real and as far the facts and figures used to report deaths were most likely higher than reported, not lower.

[Lune]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:09 AM, Nuclear Wessel said:

So they made the choice to go in and get even closer to NATO countries bordering Ukraine?

So you think 5 minutes is enough time for Mr Putin to react to a possible Nuclear attack weather its a false alarm or not? Because that is exactly how long he would have if Ukraine joins NATO and Nuclear missiles are installed on the border.. and apparently it's OK to ban the Russian language and persecute them for being Russians and everything else the western media is failing to tell you.

[Duke Wellington]

On 1/26/2023 at 2:35 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

They grew up on opposite sides of the Iron Curtain. In Communist East Germany, Sahra Wagenknecht learned as a child that Russia was an ally and the United States a threat to peace, while 250 miles away, Gerd Bauz lived near an American military base that he was told was there to protect West Germany from a feared Warsaw Pact invasion.

A recent poll showed Germans to be fairly evenly divided over whether to provide Ukraine with tanks, with 46% in favor and 43% opposed. A majority of those opposed are supporters of Scholz’s center-left Social Democratic Party, which has made things awkward for the chancellor.

'War scares us stiff': Germany's reluctance to arm Ukraine is rooted in its bloodstained past (msn.com)

They are the first major country Russia would have to go through to beat Europe in a world war.

[DarkHunter]

20 minutes ago, lune said:

So you think 5 minutes is enough time for Mr Putin to react to a possible Nuclear attack weather its a false alarm or not? Because that is exactly how long he would have if Ukraine joins NATO and Nuclear missiles are installed on the border.. and apparently it's OK to ban the Russian language and persecute them for being Russians and everything else the western media is failing to tell you.

Ever since submarine launched nuclear missiles Russia has only had a 5 minute or less window to respond to a nuclear attack so that argument of nukes on Ukranian territory is a meaningless argument.

Ukraine never banned the Russian language, the only thing that happened was Ukraine passing a law in 2019 that made Ukranian the official language of Ukraine.  This argument is just completely and utterly factually incorrect.

Lastly there has been no state persecution  in Ukraine of Russians.  A very inconvenient fact for Russia has been that a large part of Azov battalion, the group Russia tried to paint as neo-Nazis, were made up of a lot of Ukranians of Russian ethnicity.

Essentially every point you brought up is either meaningless or factually incorrect 

[Duke Wellington]

34 minutes ago, lune said:

So you think 5 minutes is enough time for Mr Putin to react to a possible Nuclear attack weather its a false alarm or not? Because that is exactly how long he would have if Ukraine joins NATO and Nuclear missiles are installed on the border.. and apparently it's OK to ban the Russian language and persecute them for being Russians and everything else the western media is failing to tell you.

They wont listen to those arguments, which are correct.

This war was setup long before Russia invaded and is designed to grind them down. After then its China`s turn. American Century programme, dam that could have been Britain if WW2 had been different lol.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Cookie Monster

[Duke Wellington]

3 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Ever since submarine launched nuclear missiles Russia has only had a 5 minute or less window to respond to a nuclear attack so that argument of nukes on Ukranian territory is a meaningless argument.

Ukraine never banned the Russian language, the only thing that happened was Ukraine passing a law in 2019 that made Ukranian the official language of Ukraine.  This argument is just completely and utterly factually incorrect.

Lastly there has been no state persecution  in Ukraine of Russians.  A very inconvenient fact for Russia has been that a large part of Azov battalion, the group Russia tried to paint as neo-Nazis, were made up of a lot of Ukranians of Russian ethnicity.

Essentially every point you brought up is either meaningless or factually incorrect 

Russian language, and keeping a Russian passport, were both made illegal.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Cookie Monster

[DarkHunter]

8 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Russian language, and keeping a Russian passport, were both made illegal.

The language was not made illegal and neither was having a Russian passport.  

I'm guessing you can provide a non Russian state owned media source to back your claims

[Lune]

13 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

there has been no state persecution  in Ukraine of Russians.  A very inconvenient fact for Russia has been that a large part of Azov battalion, the group Russia tried to paint as neo-Nazis, were made up of a lot of Ukranians of Russian ethnicity.

 

Your incorrect lies are typical of a Stepan Bandera supporter. Try watching Ukraine on fire the full version, everything you need to know is on there.. no doubt you will say it's all false. Like the false videos of THOUSANDS of Bandera supporters on the still available videos on Youtube.. Which are actually BBC videos. Sheep much.

[Lune]

13 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

I'm guessing you can provide a non Russian state owned media source to back your claims

Yh good one lol.  try finding from Russian sources at all! Scott Ritter and Colonal Douglas Mcgreggor are more or less all that exists.. the west made sure of that. Oh and the Schiller Institute. Bother to find the truth and you'll find it.

[spartan max2]

14 hours ago, lune said:

So you think 5 minutes is enough time for Mr Putin to react to a possible Nuclear attack weather its a false alarm or not? Because that is exactly how long he would have if Ukraine joins NATO and Nuclear missiles are installed on the border.. and apparently it's OK to ban the Russian language and persecute them for being Russians and everything else the western media is failing to tell you.

Was anyone putting nukes in Ukraine? 

Also, we are all dead if anyone shoots a nuke. There is enough time to know a nukes has been launched at you and to respond, irrelevant to how close the nuke was fired from.

Edited February 1, 2023 by spartan max2

[Lune]

21 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Was anyone putting nukes in Ukraine? 

Also, we are all dead if anyone shoots a nuke. There is enough time to know a nukes has been launched at you and to respond, irrelevant to how close the nuke was fired from.

Not yet but the US put nukes in Turkey.. fact. The US are proven liars (WMDs), along with their European allies (No intension of agreeing to the Minsk agreements) and cannot be trusted.. fact. The US starting wars and invading numerous countries across the planet, aswell as occupying various countries across the planet.

And yes we are ALL dead if anyone shoots a Nuke so whats with the antagonising? You got a secret bunker you arent telling us about? because the pondlife politicians that are arming Ukraine (to the last Ukrainian if you have'nt heard) will have some rock to slither under while we are all vapourised.. fact.

 

[spartan max2]

24 minutes ago, lune said:

Not yet but the US put nukes in Turkey.. fact. The US are proven liars (WMDs), along with their European allies (No intension of agreeing to the Minsk agreements) and cannot be trusted.. fact. The US starting wars and invading numerous countries across the planet, aswell as occupying various countries across the planet.

And yes we are ALL dead if anyone shoots a Nuke so whats with the antagonising? You got a secret bunker you arent telling us about? because the pondlife politicians that are arming Ukraine (to the last Ukrainian if you have'nt heard) will have some rock to slither under while we are all vapourised.. fact.

 

So your comment about nukes in Ukraine is actually irrelevant since nonething like that happened. Got it.

As for antagonizing. That's a good question. Putin invading a nation and constantly threatening nukes is pretty antagonist wouldn't you agree?

Its unfortunate Putin lied about how he wouldn't invade Ukraine.

This whole conflict could end in a single day if Putin sent his troops back to Russia.

Edited February 1, 2023 by spartan max2

[Lune]

18 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

So your comment about nukes in Ukraine is actually irrelevant since nonething like that happened. Got it.

As for antagonizing. That's a good question. Putin invading a nation and constantly threatening nukes is pretty antagonist wouldn't you agree?

Its unfortunate Putin lied about how he wouldn't invade Ukraine.

This whole conflict could end in a single day if Putin sent his troops back to Russia.

You're not paying attention are you? You should as I will be asking questions later. Maybe Mr Putin should put his Nukes in Cuba or is that a bad idea for anyone living in say Ohio lmao.

Lets attempt to invade or atleast start a revolution in say Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria or Libya or Tunisia or Egypt or Vietnam or Turkey or yemen or.. is American exceptionalism the way.. I probably forgot a few there. Again I lmao.

This whole conflict could have been AVOIDED if the US, UK and all the other numpties were to stay the hell out of other peoples businesses. Should I mention Taiwan and China?

[spartan max2]

2 minutes ago, lune said:

You're not paying attention are you? You should as I will be asking questions later. Maybe Mr Putin should put his Nukes in Cuba or is that a bad idea for anyone living in say Ohio lmao.

Lets attempt to invade or atleast start a revolution in say Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria or Libya or Tunisia or Egypt or Vietnam or Turkey or yemen or.. is American exceptionalism the way.. I probably forgot a few there. Again I lmao.

This whole conflict could have been AVOIDED if the US, UK and all the other numpties were to stay the hell out of other peoples businesses. Should I mention Taiwan and China?

Most of your comment is irrelevant.

1) Are there nukes in Ukraine? Did anyone plan to put nukes in Ukraine?

2) are Ukrainians an independent people who are allowed to make their own decisions?

 

[DarkHunter]

13 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Most of your comment is irrelevant.

1) Are there nukes in Ukraine? Did anyone plan to put nukes in Ukraine?

2) are Ukrainians an independent people who are allowed to make their own decisions?

 

They are a pro-Russian troll, interacting with them isnt going to be worth it, they arent even trying to hide the Russian propaganda and misinformation they are pushing.

[Lune]

7 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Most of your comment is irrelevant.

1) Are there nukes in Ukraine? Did anyone plan to put nukes in Ukraine?

2) are Ukrainians an independent people who are allowed to make their own decisions?

 

No/Yes and Yes. You saying most of my comment is irrelevant shows your ignorance, which outweighs your charm.

I was taught in school how bad the National Socialist German Workers Party was but it seems the woke would have you believe that Russians are the bad guys. Russia was invaded TWICE via Ukraine so you really think they are gonna let themselves sucker-punched a third time?

You mean Independant enough to be forced into fighting the Russians whether they want to or not? Even teenagers that have'nt seen a life yet? When Belensky is having Vouge photoshoots drinking wine eating steaks and well, living the dream. lmao.

[spartan max2]

13 minutes ago, lune said:

No/Yes and Yes. You saying most of my comment is irrelevant shows your ignorance, which outweighs your charm.

I was taught in school how bad the National Socialist German Workers Party was but it seems the woke would have you believe that Russians are the bad guys. Russia was invaded TWICE via Ukraine so you really think they are gonna let themselves sucker-punched a third time?

You mean Independant enough to be forced into fighting the Russians whether they want to or not? Even teenagers that have'nt seen a life yet? When Belensky is having Vouge photoshoots drinking wine eating steaks and well, living the dream. lmao.

Is Ukraine free to decide their own trade agreements and alliances?

If so they are free to join NATO. If they are not free to do that than they are not an independent people or nation.

The irony is Ukraine wouldn't care to join NATO if they didn't feel threatened by Russian.

Putin really is the cause of his problems. It sad how many Russians he sacrifices for his vanity. Russians were never in danger from Ukraine. Its pretty moronic to think so. Even know Ukraine is just trying to kick Russia out of its land. 

Yet Ukraine is a threat to Russia? What a joke.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by spartan max2

[Lune]

20 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

They are a pro-Russian troll, interacting with them isnt going to be worth it, they arent even trying to hide the Russian propaganda and misinformation they are pushing.

Pro-Russian troll. Bold accusation. Totally false and very far from the truth. Thousands of video clips showing the woke media and the such calling anyone with a view that does'nt match their narative being called a Russian troll or Russian bot on the internet so you're name calling is nothing new. Be original or follow the herds. I remember back in the day on UM when everyone was talking about critical thinking.. I guess that's all gone out the window lmao.

It's a shame tham almost everyone who remembers the horrors of WW2 are dead. Remember, No politician cares about you or me, they want us all dead.

[Lune]

4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

What a joke.

 

 

Yes we can agree on that.. What a joke.. And to prove it they put a COMEDIAN in charge of the most corrupt country on the planet.. No joke.

Please watch UKRAINE ON FIRE. It'll make a man of you. Yes I was upset when I realised that we'd been lied to aswell.

Dig deep and you'll realise that most of what we've told is lies.. almost everything.. Like Jack Ruby's meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald long before the assassination of JFK and how the US and UK ordered Austria to step down before Germany invaded. You may realise that the west has been after Russia for over a centry and used the innocent people of the world to do their bidding.. like they are now.

Dig deep, the truth will lead you on a path you wont want to hear or believe.

[DarkHunter]

35 minutes ago, lune said:

Pro-Russian troll. Bold accusation. Totally false and very far from the truth. Thousands of video clips showing the woke media and the such calling anyone with a view that does'nt match their narative being called a Russian troll or Russian bot on the internet so you're name calling is nothing new. Be original or follow the herds. I remember back in the day on UM when everyone was talking about critical thinking.. I guess that's all gone out the window lmao.

It's a shame tham almost everyone who remembers the horrors of WW2 are dead. Remember, No politician cares about you or me, they want us all dead.

It is blatantly false that Ukraine banned the Russian language and it's also blatantly false that Ukraine was persecuting ethnic Russians.  You try to argue that Scott Ritter, who blames the Bucha massacre on Ukranian police despite overwhelming evidence and writes for Russian state owned media company RT is a reliable source along with Douglas MacGregor who has been wrong about every single prediction he has made about the war in Ukraine.  You also bring up Ukraine on fire as a reliable source despite just about everyone admitting it's nothing more than pro-Russian propaganda.

If the Ukranian government did ban the Russian language than simply post the Ukranian law and its text that banned the Russian language, it's very simple and easy to prove your points if they are true but I know you wont.  My guess is instead you will get more defensive, try to misdirect from your pushing Russian propaganda and misinformation while pushing even more Russian propaganda and misinformation.

Edited February 1, 2023 by DarkHunter