Can non-Christians go to Heaven?

[pellinore]

I was puzzling about this after reading posts in another thread here about atheism and theism.

According to the Bible, God sent Jesus down here to "spread the word". We have chosen the date Jesus was born as 0 BC, just for convenience.

However, we know history began around 3200 BC (in the sense of written records) and modern man, although he was not able to write or leave written records, has been around for about 300 thousand years.

What puzzles me, is, why did God leave it for several hundred thousand years before He wanted to teach us about Himself and the need to worship Him; and will the thousands (or maybe millions) of people  who died without the benefit of Christ's teaching (because he hadn't been born) go to Heaven anyway?

And a related question which I have just thought of- why did God just put one son down in the Middle East? Why didn't he decide to have several sons and have one on each continent, to spread the Word a bit more?

And, while we are on the subject of Children, why didn't he foresee the problems we would have with misogyny and patriarchy? I am sure he was equal opportunities, so shouldn't he have sent a Daughter down as well, as a bit of balance?

 

[XenoFish]

Considering that God/s/ess's are just cultural constructs, there's a good chance that there isn't a 'heaven' at all. Along with a god (if is does/n't exist) that might be some cosmic horror far beyond human comprehension. So the question is mute and pointless. 

[pellinore]

10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Considering that God/s/ess's are just cultural constructs, there's a good chance that there isn't a 'heaven' at all. Along with a god (if is does/n't exist) that might be some cosmic horror far beyond human comprehension. So the question is mute and pointless. 

That's your view, and you may be atheist or agnostic. I was hoping (really hoping, I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely interested) what the view of a Christian would be.There are some big questions in my OP.

Edited January 27, 2023 by pellinore

[Duke Wellington]

13 minutes ago, pellinore said:

I was puzzling about this after reading posts in another thread here about atheism and theism.

According to the Bible, God sent Jesus down here to "spread the word". We have chosen the date Jesus was born as 0 BC, just for convenience.

However, we know history began around 3200 BC (in the sense of written records) and modern man, although he was not able to write or leave written records, has been around for about 300 thousand years.

What puzzles me, is, why did God leave it for several hundred thousand years before He wanted to teach us about Himself and the need to worship Him; and will the thousands (or maybe millions) of people  who died without the benefit of Christ's teaching (because he hadn't been born) go to Heaven anyway?

And a related question which I have just thought of- why did God just put one son down in the Middle East? Why didn't he decide to have several sons and have one on each continent, to spread the Word a bit more?

And, while we are on the subject of Children, why didn't he foresee the problems we would have with misogyny and patriarchy? I am sure he was equal opportunities, so shouldn't he have sent a Daughter down as well, as a bit of balance?

 

Dont limit yourself to one religion, they are all trying to understand the same thing.

Join a religious chat forum (maybe a multi-faith one) and have a look for a senior member of a faith with a physics or engineering degree. They are the best ones to speak too. If you are asking specifically about spreading the word in Christianity it doesn`t mean what its read as. You have to do something like Bridal-Mysticism to be taught what it actually means. I see Xenofish is already here, hi!!! You know what I`m going to post already LMAO.

A crash course in mysticism:

1. Initially there was only non-duality.

2. Non-duality split into all the dualities making our universe possible. Examples of dualities are positive and negative, male and female, light and dark. Non-duality isn`t nothingness, it is no separation into dualities.

3. The initial duality was a male and female one. God in the male role, you in the female one. And all of us were cast in the female role too.

4. By male and female in the above we do not mean man and woman. We mean giver and receiver. God gives or provides. We receive or embrace.

5. The best way of understanding the nature of God is it doesn`t know what pleasure is. So it has created a world and filled it with pleasures for you to enjoy. You are supposed to enjoy 100% of things pleasurable to you. But what is key is that God needs pleasure too. You give that back by enjoying pleasure intentionally to give God pleasure.

6. Spreading the word is about giving pleasure back to God by getting other people enjoying what is pleasurable to them.

[jmccr8]

Hi Pellinore

The bible does say that if your name is not in the book of life that you will be judged by the book of acts. Many people that never heard of this god would enter heaven if they lived a virtuous life and did good deeds.

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, pellinore said:

That's your view, and you may be atheist or agnostic. I was hoping (really hoping, I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely interested) what the view of a Christian would be.There are some big questions in my OP.

The only question I really see is someone asking if they can get into heaven. While also passing the blame for human action onto a possible imaginary god. 

[cormac mac airt]

23 minutes ago, pellinore said:

I was puzzling about this after reading posts in another thread here about atheism and theism.

According to the Bible, God sent Jesus down here to "spread the word". We have chosen the date Jesus was born as 0 BC, just for convenience.

However, we know history began around 3200 BC (in the sense of written records) and modern man, although he was not able to write or leave written records, has been around for about 300 thousand years.

What puzzles me, is, why did God leave it for several hundred thousand years before He wanted to teach us about Himself and the need to worship Him; and will the thousands (or maybe millions) of people  who died without the benefit of Christ's teaching (because he hadn't been born) go to Heaven anyway?

And a related question which I have just thought of- why did God just put one son down in the Middle East? Why didn't he decide to have several sons and have one on each continent, to spread the Word a bit more?

And, while we are on the subject of Children, why didn't he foresee the problems we would have with misogyny and patriarchy? I am sure he was equal opportunities, so shouldn't he have sent a Daughter down as well, as a bit of balance?

 

The above hinges on at least two assumptions. 1) God/a god exists as a matter of fact, something of which can neither be proven nor disproven and 2) said deity can and does take an active involvement with the humans He’s created which ALSO can neither be proven nor disproven. Any answers you’re seeking are therefore constrained by those assumptions being fact which is no better than confirmation bias. 
 

cormac

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I see Xenofish is already here, hi!!! You know what I`m going to post already LMAO.

I know, do lines of coke off the belly of a hooker for Jesus. That type of stuff.

[jmccr8]

3 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Dont limit yourself to one religion, they are all trying to understand the same thing.

Hi Cookie

Pellinore was specific in what he was asking about the Christian belief so that kind of excludes other religious constructs. Heaven is specific to Abrahamic faiths so let’s try and colour inside the lines here.

[pellinore]

2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The above hinges on at least two assumptions. 1) God/a god exists as a matter of fact, something of which can neither be proven nor disproven and 2) said deity can and does take an active involvement with the humans He’s created which ALSO can neither be proven nor disproven. Any answers you’re seeking are therefore constrained by those assumptions being fact which is no better than confirmation bias. 
 

cormac

No, I'm, for the sake of argument, ignoring the question as to whether God exists or not. That's a separate issue.

Let's assume He does. My question is, why did he leave it so long to reveal Himself, why didn't he reveal Himself all over the world not just the Middle East, and why didn't He send a daughter as well to teach us about gender equality?

Just saying He doesn't exist side-steps my questions.

 

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Let's assume He does. My question is, why did he leave it so long to reveal Himself, why didn't he reveal Himself all over the world not just the Middle East, and why didn't He send a daughter as well to teach us about gender equality?

 

Because the god you're talking about is a cultural specific god. Not an actual god. Just an idea of one. Plus you're putting a modern lens onto a long gone past. Life then isn't life now. 

[Ell]

38 minutes ago, pellinore said:

why didn't he foresee the problems we would have with misogyny and patriarchy?

Those may in large part be due to circumcision.

 

As for life and death: that is what all life has in common.

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, pellinore said:

No, I'm, for the sake of argument, ignoring the question as to whether God exists or not. That's a separate issue.

Let's assume He does. My question is, why did he leave it so long to reveal Himself, why didn't he reveal Himself all over the world not just the Middle East, and why didn't He send a daughter as well to teach us about gender equality?

Just saying He doesn't exist side-steps my questions.

 

Hi Pellinore

I would think that the lack of god’s influence on man prior to it’s appearance in history is because god evolved from man and had no significant role to play until humans were able to be stationary and have possessions like a permanent home with adequate food stocks.

[pellinore]

15 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

 

4. By male and female in the above we do not mean man and woman. We mean giver and receiver. God gives or provides. We receive or embrace.

5. The best way of understanding the nature of God is it doesn`t know what pleasure is. So it has created a world and filled it with pleasures for you to enjoy. You are supposed to enjoy 100% of things pleasurable to you. But what is key is that God needs pleasure too. You give that back by enjoying pleasure intentionally to give God pleasure.

6. Spreading the word is about giving pleasure back to God by getting other people enjoying what is pleasurable to them.

From what I understand about religious controversies, God is already overly concerned about what we get up to under the bedsheets. I wouldn't want to encourage Him.

[cormac mac airt]

8 minutes ago, pellinore said:

No, I'm, for the sake of argument, ignoring the question as to whether God exists or not. That's a separate issue.

Let's assume He does. My question is, why did he leave it so long to reveal Himself, why didn't he reveal Himself all over the world not just the Middle East, and why didn't He send a daughter as well to teach us about gender equality?

Just saying He doesn't exist side-steps my questions.

 

If you listen to a Biblical literalist it wasn’t that long, which actually ignores real human history. You either stick with real history or Biblical history, you can’t have both. 
 

cormac

Edited January 27, 2023 by cormac mac airt

[pellinore]

2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Pellinore

I would think that the lack of god’s influence on man prior to it’s appearance in history is because god evolved from man and had no significant role to play until humans were able to be stationary and have possessions like a permanent home with adequate food stocks.

That sounds dangerously like atheism, as if man created God and not the other way around. Let's hope a Christian will give us a balanced view.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, pellinore said:

From what I understand about religious controversies, God is already overly concerned about what we get up to under the bedsheets. I wouldn't want to encourage Him.

CM is a spiritual hedonism. His excuse for it is "God want's me too". So whatever pleasure seeking and bad behaviour he can perform is done for God or Jesus or Satan. At this point it's a spiritual soup made with gutter oil. 

[XenoFish]

Just to add something more useful to this thread. I was once a Christian. The big message I got was that I'm doomed to hell regardless of what I do and Jesus can just boot me off the list to heaven whenever he chooses. I guess the answer is no one gets into heaven. 

[jmccr8]

4 minutes ago, pellinore said:

That sounds dangerously like atheism, as if man created God and not the other way around. Let's hope a Christian will give us a balanced view.

Hi Pellinore

There is no unified position as to why god showed up late to the party. There a many that don’t think the world we know is older than 6-7 thousand years old and dinosaur bones are forgeries so not likely you will find a satisfactory answer.

Yes my prior comment does sound like an atheist answer based of scientific discovery, however I was raised Catholic and asked many questions that were left unanswered.

On my one grade 7 report card the notation on it from the principal said I had a great mind than needed to be directed because of the types of questions I raised in Christian ethics classes who’s answers were avoided which was a great part of why I discontinued with god constructs.

[cormac mac airt]

11 minutes ago, pellinore said:

That sounds dangerously like atheism, as if man created God and not the other way around. Let's hope a Christian will give us a balanced view.

Christians have no more of a balanced view than any other religion. 
 

As to whether or not non-Christians can get into Heaven, yes they can eventually, otherwise the pre-Christian patriarchs and others could never get in. BTW, according to the Bible NOBODY gets in until after the second coming so ALL the dead will remain dead until then. 
 

cormac

[quiXilver]

The last census of Christianity (pre 1990's) revealed over 30,000 distinct variations of Christian Belief System on the planet at that time.

There is no one Chrisitian overall unifying view about any aspect of Christianity in regard to its theology, practice or philosophy, even among people of one parsing, say Methodists for example.  They don't all agree even when sitting in the same building singing the same songs.. 

Indeed at the heart, there are as many varieties of Christianity as there are people self identifying as such.

 

Christian the name literally means Christ - like.  Implying one whose manner emulates Christ.  Which is a problematic notion to start from, since we've no idea there really was such a man, let alone what his demeanor may have been aside from the writings about him which first began to be recorded over six decades after his supposed passing.

Getting Christians to agree on what heaven is, or is not?  Who is in and who is out? 

 

pfft.  It's all subjective. 

 

We each live our entire life from the center of our own awareness.

Our awareness is conditioned by our family, society and personal inclinations, as such each answer you get will be as unbinding as it is individual.  Fascinating maybe, but an exercise in personal opinion and bias more than anything else.

[+DieChecker]

If we go off the Bible, and Book of Revelation, then the way into the New Heaven, at the Final Judgement, is by having two variables be true.

1. Your name is written in the Book of Life. Which is assumed by most to mean, you have accepted Jesus as the Savior.

2. Jesus (The Judge) reads from the book of your life. What you did, and how you acted. To see if you fall into the "Good" category. Some take this to mean that you had died after repenting of all sins.

IMO, I think that #1 can be done anytime up to the point of Jesus sending you to Hell... Lake of Fire, Gehenna, Tartarus. You just say to Jesus, I accept you are the Savior, and boom, youre in.

I also think that #2 is a scales kind of thing, where if the good you did overbalances the wrong/evil/bad, then youre in.

I think the greater majority of people will get in. I think Jesus (God) is merciful in this.

Also, since there is a New Heaven, my supposition is there is a Current (Old) Heaven, which is a waiting place. Much like Purgatory, but nicer. 

Also Revelation says everyone, the living and the dead, will be Judged by Jesus, so I don't think there will be much in the way of FastPass lanes involved. No grandfathering here, IMO.

So, to answer the OP question. I think YES, and also NO, since no one that does not recognize Jesus as the Savior gets into Heaven. But, yes, in that each person will be allowed that opportunity, and most will recognize what is going on and react smartly. Some will be skeptical, and act as such and get burned.

[eight bits]

I don't know if this is responsive to your request or not. If not, then ay least it's short.

 

[+and-then]

I have no apologetics for most of your questions (shame on ME) but the one you asked in the title is answered here:

Acts 4:12

"And there is salvation in no one ... among men by which we must be saved.” ... There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved!” ... 

This^ IMO, is the basis for the hatred the world will express for Christians who actually believe this scripture and refuse to do what Graham did there.   Those who vehemently deny any such oppression or targeting of Christians, really can't be taken seriously in light of the horrors taking place in Sudan, China, and multiple other majority Islamic nations.  To give "credit" where due, China also cheerfully sends Muslims to "re-education" camps.  Little is allowed to leak out from the imprisoned Uyghurs but in general the reality seems to be that these Muslims are being dehumanized, physically and sexually abused, tortured and many are dying there.

Serious oppression and violence hasn't come to America yet but when it inevitably does, the battle cry of those who attack believers in Christ will be some version of "Christians are hate-filled and unwilling to coexist".  The last few years has been depressing, watching the mushrooming perversion and lawlessness in our culture and government but I've actually begun to remember - and finally accept - that all of this kind of degradation was predicted for the "last times".  While it is disheartening to know that it won't be stopped and in fact will increase explosively in the near future, it still must be seen by believers as an encouraging sign that every one of these abominations we are seeing on display in America, also signal the coming return of the Christ and the ultimate restoration of the sanity and true brotherly coexistence among those who only desire peace.

Regarding the Billy Graham vid... I'd never seen that exchange and it troubles me.  Much later in his life he sort of laughed off Bill Clinton's reputation as an adulterer but THIS comment truly disappoints me.    

[+Sherapy]

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I know, do lines of coke off the belly of a hooker for Jesus. That type of stuff.

Ahahahaha best counter ever. I read the same post and thought what is this cat smokin

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Sherapy