Can non-Christians go to Heaven?

[+Hammerclaw]

5 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's called a flail, Latin flagellum, as in the crook and flail of Osiris. They could be weighted with metal or have jagged pieces of metal woven into the cords to tear away flesh. What paul was referring to was probably a very old fashion riding crop.

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's called a flail, Latin flagellum, as in the crook and flail of Osiris. They could be weighted with metal or have jagged pieces of metal woven into the cords to tear away flesh. What paul was referring was probably a very old fashion riding crop.

I hadn't thought of this, that he grabbed a crop or something that was already there that's used to move animals along, I had always thought he's grabbing multiple pieces of rope that were available and using that.  Regardless, there's only one savior I can think of who can acceptably use a whip from a moral standpoint:

[XenoFish]

28 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Regardless, there's only one savior I can think of who can acceptably use a whip from a moral standpoint:

Simon Belmont? 

[+Hammerclaw]

47 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I hadn't thought of this, that he grabbed a crop or something that was already there that's used to move animals along, I had always thought he's grabbing multiple pieces of rope that were available and using that.  Regardless, there's only one savior I can think of who can acceptably use a whip from a moral standpoint:

Zorro?

Edited February 4, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[jmccr8]

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Simon Belmont? 

[lightly]

I’ve been looking for info on shepherds ,of the time, what ‘tools’ they used.   Their Rod, and their Staff, they comfort me. Bahhhhhh …they  also carried Slings to protect the sheep from whatever.   I was trying to find info on them *cracking* whips ,to scare off predators, and ‘drive’ the sheep when need be.    I’d bet all your socks they used whips for the sound Effect.   Anyway, scourging was traditional treatment for condemned prisoners ..prior to crucifixion.   It was a very ancient practice.

[+DieChecker]

16 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Agreed, there is definitely overlap between a whip and cat o nine tails.  But I would argue that any hyperbole/exaggeration there is between whip of cords and cat o nine tails is much less than between whip of cords and ‘a animal lead rope’, which is how you described it.  It may have been made of lead rope but as soon as you start swinging it, it’s a whip.

As far as ‘hyperbole’, let’s keep in mind the context.  Some would say the idea of the Son of a God who is divine and preaches love and forgiveness and do unto others violently freaking out to the point of doing any whipping because he’s upset at one very specific wrong when he’s utterly surrounded by sin is bizarre, concerning, and way out of proportion.  To note that ‘well, it’s not the worst kind of cat o nine tails so that’s hyperbolic’ is duly noted but doesn’t really compare to where the real problem with excessiveness is.

First, I should apologize. I quoted you as if you were the poster I originally quoted. I tried to go back and edit the response post. I meant the original poster was using hyperbole, not you.

Well, it's just to me, but a cat-o-ninetails is a weapon, not a bundle of rope, or a looped up lead rope. One is designed to do serious bodily harm, and the other is just some ropes held in your hand and swung about. 

Difference is a 9mm handgun, versus a BB gun. 

And, well, it is a story out of the Bible. Intended for relatively barbaric people 2000 years ago. So I don't find the level of violence excessive. If anything, given context, he was subdued. No one died. Not even any of the animals. The only people directly affected were that times 1%. The super rich, and their enablers, the priests.

[+DieChecker]

57 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Crom!!

[Foul One]

It wasn't that long ago that the word "heavens" was the word used to describe ANYWHERE above the clouds.  The stars are in the heavens, the moon is in the heavens, "gods" come from the heavens etc. The words space, galaxy, etc wasn't even in their vocabulary.  It was the christian cult that attempted to give the word a new meaning.  So you are asking if non christians can go to outer space. Do you suppose the head hunters in the jungles of Peru wonder if their gods are going to forgive us and let us into their after life realm? Their are thousands of cults around the world (cult= a group of people defined by their religious or political beliefs) christianity is not the largest or the oldest.

[eight bits]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

And, well, it is a story out of the Bible. Intended for relatively barbaric people 2000 years ago. So I don't find the level of violence excessive. If anything, given context, he was subdued. No one died. Not even any of the animals. The only people directly affected were that times 1%. The super rich, and their enablers, the priests.

No, actually it was working people whom he rousted. The priests? He marginally inconvenienced them.

In John, the only canonical gospel where Jesus used a whip (2:13), the priests didn't even bother to kill him afterward. They don't settle the score until years later, and then only when Jesus is doing public appearances with Lazarus, which the priests viewed as a real threat.

The Greek of verse 2:13 is a tad ambiguous. Jesus may only have driven out all the oxen and sheep, and not any people. He seems to speak with the people instead, and overturning their tables. (The ambiguity is that the word used for "all," pantas, is masculine, but among the driven animals were oxen boas, also grammatically masculine, which would make "sheep and oxen" grammatically masculine.)

Regardless, I had no idea so many members here were so into whips, and the nuances of their use. I always thought of this place as being so ... conventional. Now, I see it in a whole new light .

[+DieChecker]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

No, actually it was working people whom he rousted. The priests? He marginally inconvenienced them.

In John, the only canonical gospel where Jesus used a whip (2:13), the priests didn't even bother to kill him afterward. They don't settle the score until years later, and then only when Jesus is doing public appearances with Lazarus, which the priests viewed as a real threat.

The Greek of verse 2:13 is a tad ambiguous. Jesus may only have driven out all the oxen and sheep, and not any people. He seems to speak with the people instead, and overturning their tables. (The ambiguity is that the word used for "all," pantas, is masculine, but among the driven animals were oxen boas, also grammatically masculine, which would make "sheep and oxen" grammatically masculine.)

Regardless, I had no idea so many members here were so into whips, and the nuances of their use. I always thought of this place as being so ... conventional. Now, I see it in a whole new light .

I always thought of the merchants as being a class higher then the regular people. They had control of resources, like money and animals. I don't really know if that made them "rich", but I believe they were likely the ones favored by the priests to operate at the Temple, which would have been lucrative.

Considering animal sacrifice was one of the few ways to be absolved of a transgression. And they sold their animals right there. It's not a stretch that they were well off.

I've read the same, that some denominations say he drove out just the animals, but some say he drove out the merchants too. 

[+DieChecker]

1 hour ago, Foul One said:

It wasn't that long ago that the word "heavens" was the word used to describe ANYWHERE above the clouds.  The stars are in the heavens, the moon is in the heavens, "gods" come from the heavens etc. The words space, galaxy, etc wasn't even in their vocabulary.  It was the christian cult that attempted to give the word a new meaning.  So you are asking if non christians can go to outer space. Do you suppose the head hunters in the jungles of Peru wonder if their gods are going to forgive us and let us into their after life realm? Their are thousands of cults around the world (cult= a group of people defined by their religious or political beliefs) christianity is not the largest or the oldest.

Which is the largest? 

[Foul One]

3 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Which is the largest? 

Depends on whether you are asking a christian or not.  Islam is the largest.

[XenoFish]

People create fantasies in order to cope with reality, religion is just one of the many methods for doing that.

[Alchopwn]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:41 AM, DieChecker said:

That's a very interesting point of view. I can see many points that are true, and many that are just part true.

For example the well known "flipping tables" story. It wasn't a cat-o-ninetail, it was a animal lead rope. And it wasn't all bankers. It was those changing coins, and selling animals, inside the temple grounds, turning the holy building into a strip mall.

So though your points have some truth, the hyperbole of your post clearly shows you're exaggerating for effect.

If someone came into your living room, and took a dump on the carpet, you also might have a problem with it.

I can support my hyperbole with references.  Which part offends you the most?  I'll clarify and present my sources.

As to turning holy buildings into strip malls, I know USA has auto teller machines in churches.  What would Jesus say?

[lightly]

I like that story.   Can’t blame JC for getting steamed!  It was a temple…not a bank, or meat market.  ( I know,animal sacrifice was done there but)  He drove the animals out!   Good.  He flipped the money tables over.   Attaboy!    There’s a place for everything, and everything should be in it’s place. ?
       (reminds me..I’m considering hiring my wife out to de-clutter houses.   What ever you want to be rid of…just leave it out for her to put away somewhere.  You’ll NEVER see it again!*

Edited February 5, 2023 by lightly