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How Biden's wartime visit to Kyiv came together


Grim Reaper 6

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3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

More black and white?

Most of the people here who support this madness literally see it as Russia bad US and Ukraine good. That is black and white. And it’s BS. And forgive me if I’m incorrect, but I’ve never once heard you say NATO and the US is even in part responsible for this mess. The things you have gone on to say in this post show a clear black and white attitude. 

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Of course one can point out faults of NATO. Of course one can point out hypocrisy of the US.  Some of us have been doing that for 40 years. None of that contradicts the fact that other countries can be villains too. 

Look at the world away from the black and white paradigm. 
 

Of course they can be villains too. That’s the point. This was all a preventable predictable action reaction situation. I never said there is any white in this. Not by a long shot. 

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

China is buying Russian oil.  India is buying Russian oil.  They are doing it for their own interests.  How does that effect the world? Russia sells oil at a bargain rate, India and China fill up their strategic reserves, a benefit for them.  

If China and India buy a million barrels a day for their needs, that is a million barrels they are not buying on the world market.  That affects the price of a barrel of oil  You get the cheaper gas you  long for. 
 

Could have happened, if Biden didn’t then tell Saudi Arabia he was going to put them out of business. Another action reaction situation where of course they instantly jacked their price of oil. Another predictable and completely unnecessary outcome. He, or I should say his handlers want oil to be expensive. Want instability. Want high prices for everything. Want the middle class to die. Every single thing he has done since he’s been in that chair screams it. 

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

China will continue to buy cheap Russian oil as long as they can, they probably hope the Ukrainian war lasts as  long as possible.  Do they want Russia to win?  Doubtful, it offers no benefit to China.  Sanctions on Russia do though, a desperate Russia is a benefit to China.

An end to the war will also offer opportunities to China, belt and road initiatives could help rebuild Ukraine. 

You are blinded by a story you want to be true.  The CHIPS act did nothing to help China.  Pushing infrastructure and American manufacturing does nothing to help China. Stating that the US will support defense of Taiwan does nothing to help China.  Moving carrier groups into the area does nothing to help China.  The US convincing Japan and the Netherlands to join them in a ban of high end chip manufacturing equipment to China is a blow to China not aid.  The US, Japan, and the Netherlands produce 85% of such equipment in the world.

At the same time support insanely unfair trade agreements that drain this countries wealth, at larger chunks with every dollar we borrow. Even reversed the little headway Trump made in reversing that. Then sells our reserve oil to China. According to these people most will be dead in 10 years from climate change, then drain our emergency supply lol. Amazing. 

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

But on the other hand, we need China too.  We need them as a cheap producer of consumer goods for the US and we want them as a 1.4 billion person consumer market.  Somehow we have to keep them in the world in a useful, and non-threatening way. It probably won't help us much if China does collapse.

We will see, when we have to face a military of that magnitude just as advanced and just as funded as our own. We don’t need China. We need to gut this government and fractional reserve banking that devalues the dollar to the point manufacturing becomes unaffordable in our own country. 

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Of course, Hunter has all of those copyrights with China, no wait that is Ivanka.  But Joe has a big Chinese bank account and Chinese loans on real estate ventures, no wait that is Donald.   Maybe you are afraid that Trump sold out to China so you want to think Biden did it too.  If you want to see a real sell out look at Elon Musk.  Elon praises the CCP every chance he gets, he lets the CCP spread propaganda on Twitter.  He desperately needs them to keep his mega-factory in Shanghai running and Chinese citizens buying his cars, they account for about 1/3 of Tesla production and sales.  We are talking about tens of billions of dollars.  Imagine what happens to Elon if China nationalizes the Tesla factory or shuts it down and brings out a Chinese Tesla copy they sell for less.  He is toast.

There is a big difference between doing ligit business, and using family ties for back end corrupt deals that compromise said family member. Especially when said family member is the president of the US and lies about any knowledge of it. 

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Your assertion about a Ukrainian coup is mostly  Russian propaganda feed.  A Russian puppet ruled Ukraine before the election of Zelenskyy.  The Ukrainian election was about ending corruption, that is exactly how Zelenskyy got elected.  He was a comedian, not a politician but he campaigned on ending corruption.

Highly processed news is just as bad for your brain as highly processed food is for your body.  Come on friend, stray off the path and start reading other sources and other views.

 

Who cares what it was about? Someone could easily make the argument that this country is corrupt to the bone, cause it is, and another country should support a coup to overthrow it. It wasn’t our business, nor was it our problem. In fact whose problem exactly was it? Biden as VP caused corruption in Ukraine to continue. Quid pro quo’ed over billions to have a prosecutor fired who was trying to expose a corrupt oil company. 

This wasn’t a Russian propaganda feed. It’s a fact we supported the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and installed a puppet. 
 

BTW how’d that work out? Zelenskyy has gone full blown dictator. He has removed any semblance of a free society, a free press, or a peaceful transfer of power. Did all that before the first bomb dropped. To just look at the “election” slogans, and ignore everything he’s actually done is another example of why we are in this mess to begin with. Black and white, through the lens of willful ignorance. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, acidhead said:

Says the guy who rarely, if ever, posts links/sources or video to support his opinions.  You remind me of the type of client I work for once every so often. From the moment I step inside their home their television is on a news channel and it's on all day long. It doesn't matter if it's right or left wing television news stations it's all designed to reinforce the idea that each side is at war with each other politically. 

Says the guy whose television is seldom on.  I am not a purist like joc, but I don't watch any TV news, or  listen to CNN, MSNBC, FOX or any other media site on the computer.  I offer references for facts if I have done research.   My opinions come out of my head just like yours do I suspect.  I don't quote any talking heads, what would be the point?  Find news without commentary, do research, read a book forget CNN and FOX. And Twitter. 

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3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Says the guy whose television is seldom on.  I am not a purist like joc, but I don't watch any TV news, or  listen to CNN, MSNBC, FOX or any other media site on the computer.  I offer references for facts if I have done research.   My opinions come out of my head just like yours do I suspect.  I don't quote any talking heads, what would be the point?  Find news without commentary, do research, read a book forget CNN and FOX. And Twitter. 

What's the line up on CNN and FOX tonight starting at 5PM?

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2 hours ago, acidhead said:

What's the line up on CNN and FOX tonight starting at 5PM?

I don't know, check it out, or shall I look it up for you and provide references?:devil:

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3 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Most of the people here who support this madness literally see it as Russia bad US and Ukraine good. That is black and white. And it’s BS. And forgive me if I’m incorrect, but I’ve never once heard you say NATO and the US is even in part responsible for this mess. The things you have gone on to say in this post show a clear black and white attitude. 

I won't say NATO and the US are responsible.

Do you remember  Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan?  I do.  In Vietnam we said we were going to "fight communists".  In Iraq it was weapons.  In Afghanistan, it was terrorists. 

We invaded every one of those countries, sent tens of thousands of troops there in each case.  We killed thousands of civilians and laid those countries to waste.  Were we justified?  I don't think so.

Russia said they were killing Nazi's when they invaded , or that Ukraine and NATO were threatening their way of life.  Those are more bull**** excuses the same as feeling threatened by Vietnam and sending 100k troops there to waste the country. It is not justified for the US or Russia to invade another sovereign nation. Now Finland and Sweden are feeling threatened and joining NATO after all of these years. Russia has even threatened Poland and Moldova.  

Ukraine did not invade Russia.  So Russia bad, Ukraine good.  the US is grey. sometimes good sometimes bad. I loved the US even when Trump was president, I still want to change policies, and I know we are not always good.  This time we have not invaded another country, this time we are not the bad guys. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I won't say NATO and the US are responsible.

Do you remember  Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan?  I do.  In Vietnam we said we were going to "fight communists".  In Iraq it was weapons.  In Afghanistan, it was terrorists. 

We invaded every one of those countries, sent tens of thousands of troops there in each case.  We killed thousands of civilians and laid those countries to waste.  Were we justified?  I don't think so

I certainly agree with you for the most part except where Afghanistan is concerned, that invasion was totally justified. That is where the Terrorists were trained, financed and equipped to attack the United States, more specifically the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.

33 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Russia said they were killing Nazi's when they invaded , or that Ukraine and NATO were threatening their way of life.  Those are more bull**** excuses the same as feeling threatened by Vietnam and sending 100k troops there to waste the country. It is not justified for the US or Russia to invade another sovereign nation. Now Finland and Sweden are feeling threatened and joining NATO after all of these years. Russia has even threatened Poland and Moldova.

I certainly agree with you completely, the very thing Vladimir Putin was trying to avoid was the encroachment of NATO into Eastern Europe he caused by threatening and invading his neighbors. It was Georgia in 2008, the Crimea in 2014, along with the Donbas in the Ukraine. Vladimir Putin has made it clear he felt betrayed when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1990, and since his rise to power he has expressed this repeatedly. So, when it comes to NATO encroachment that’s all on Vladimir Putin, and now he’s committed in the Ukraine with two options to leave or too allow the international community to negotiate between the Ukraine and the Russian Federation.

33 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Ukraine did not invade Russia.  So Russia bad, Ukraine good.  the US is grey. sometimes good sometimes bad. I loved the US even when Trump was president, I still want to change policies, and I know we are not always good.  This time we have not invaded another country, this time we are not the bad guys. 

I totally agree there are certainly grey areas in US Foreign Policy, for instance the US Policy that makes our Nation the Worlds Police force needs to change. This policy should have disappeared at the end of the Cold War, however, with the advent of the attack on the World Trade Center everything changed. After 9/11 we became the aggressor and we hunted global terrorism where ever it raised its ugly head. But, as far as the current conflict is concerned we are certainly on the right side, Russia started this conflict and Russia alone is responsible for all that has occurred since their invasion. Like you said above this time we are certainly not the bad guys or the aggressors in anyway.

Peace Tate!:tu: 

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7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I won't say NATO and the US are responsible.

Do you remember  Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan?  I do.  In Vietnam we said we were going to "fight communists".  In Iraq it was weapons.  In Afghanistan, it was terrorists. 

We invaded every one of those countries, sent tens of thousands of troops there in each case.  We killed thousands of civilians and laid those countries to waste.  Were we justified?  I don't think so.

Russia said they were killing Nazi's when they invaded , or that Ukraine and NATO were threatening their way of life.  Those are more bull**** excuses the same as feeling threatened by Vietnam and sending 100k troops there to waste the country. It is not justified for the US or Russia to invade another sovereign nation. Now Finland and Sweden are feeling threatened and joining NATO after all of these years. Russia has even threatened Poland and Moldova.  

Ukraine did not invade Russia.  So Russia bad, Ukraine good.  the US is grey. sometimes good sometimes bad. I loved the US even when Trump was president, I still want to change policies, and I know we are not always good.  This time we have not invaded another country, this time we are not the bad guys. 

 

That ignores some vital information. You remember the Cuban missile crisis? We, rightfully so, would not tolerate a Russian nuclear missile site so close to the homeland. We saw it as a threat worth destroying the whole planet over. Again rightfully so. 
 

We made deals with Russia regarding NATO expansion. We have violated that agreement time and again, without retaliation from Russia. Well they finally drew a line. Did you think they were kidding? You don’t think they have every bit the right to defend against things they consider a threat? Heck Cuba is much further from America than Ukraine is to Russia. 
 

The moment Zelenskyy petitioned for NATO membership, they effectively heard the rattling of a viper. The US didn’t care, and told the world Ukraine was on the brink of membership. Causing said viper to strike. It was as predictable as tossing up a rock, then watching it fall to the ground. 
 

And really what else did you expect them to do? Wait till Ukraine was a full member of NATO? Wait Till NATO put defense systems, heck maybe even aim nuclear weapons towards Russia from a couple miles from their boarder? Incapable of doing anything about it cause the full weight of NATO would then be obligated to go to war. 
 

Of course Russia is lashing out and threatening countries who provide Ukraine with support. 
 

Bottom line, we would never tolerate what we are expecting Russia to. Then cry foul, when they don’t either. 

Edited by preacherman76
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47 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

That ignores some vital information. You remember the Cuban missile crisis? We, rightfully so, would not tolerate a Russian nuclear missile site so close to the homeland. We saw it as a threat worth destroying the whole planet over. Again rightfully so. 
 

We made deals with Russia regarding NATO expansion. We have violated that agreement time and again, without retaliation from Russia. Well they finally drew a line. Did you think they were kidding? You don’t think they have every bit the right to defend against things they consider a threat? Heck Cuba is much further from America than Ukraine is to Russia. 
 

The moment Zelenskyy petitioned for NATO membership, they effectively heard the rattling of a viper. The US didn’t care, and told the world Ukraine was on the brink of membership. Causing said viper to strike. It was as predictable as tossing up a rock, then watching it fall to the ground..

You do realize that the invasion began in 2014 with the Crimea and the Donbas right?

47 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

 


 

And really what else did you expect them to do? Wait till Ukraine was a full member of NATO? Wait Till NATO put defense systems, heck maybe even aim nuclear weapons towards Russia from a couple miles from their boarder? Incapable of doing anything about it cause the full weight of NATO would then be obligated to go to war. 
 

Of course Russia is lashing out and threatening countries who provide Ukraine with support. 
 

Bottom line, we would never tolerate what we are expecting Russia to. Then cry foul, when they don’t either. 

 

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On 2/25/2023 at 5:37 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I would like to know where your information is coming from, anything can occur when traveling on a train for 10 hours one way without a military presence for security. So, sincerely if you have information that I have missed please post a link to it, now I am not criticizing you.

I understand that the Russians were contacted in advance, BUT do you believe his travel arrangements were GIVEN to the Russians?

I don’t and can’t believe they were told how he would enter the Ukraine and what mode of transportation he was planning to use. I believe that the information given to the Russians amounted to the effect that sometime during that day President Biden would be in Kyiv and that’s all they were told. This was done to stop any Drone or Missile attacks on Kyiv that day, nothing more or nothing less. Now, this is my opinion only, I mean it seems like common sense to me!:yes:

I totally disagree, and I understand your opinion is base purely upon your political beliefs. No, your comparison of what previous Presidents did in no way compares to President Biden’s 10 hour Trip by Train. When, the other Presidents went into the Middle East, the Aircraft they traveled on was supported by all the might of the US Air Force, when they landed there were hundreds if not thousands of US Soldiers securing the location during their visits. Now, this is not my opinion, I have seen the security that was in place first hand. Biden had none of those protections on his 10 hour train ride to Kyiv, first because it would have given his route of travel away which would have been a major breach of security, and second it would have eliminated the effective surprise when Kyiv started broadcasting President Biden’s arrival.

JIMHO

Did, President Biden have the Political implications in mind when he decided to make this trip, well certainly he did. But, the political effects in the United States were far over shadowed by the political implications it had on the global community! Basically, he flipped Vladimir Putin off and because of the personal risk involved he strengthened the Geo-Political position of NATO Globally. 

@Trelane do you agree or disagree with my comments above?

When it comes to the current president's activities and speeches, I am often left sad and disappointed. Not only by his limited grasp on what is truly important, but the failure of the American public when it comes to presidential elections (no not a Trump fan either).

Anyway, his trip to Ukraine was used as a political ploy for here at home. No doubting that. He had to show his "foreign policy in action" side since everyone keenly remembers the hasty and tragic withdrawal from Afghanistan. I personally don't think the international implications really don't have much to do with anything Biden has said (mumbled) or done. I'm sure there was some effect, but I don't think Putin takes him seriously at all.

However, the level of protection provided could have been layered with several governmental entities. In lieu of uniformed Soldiers, there likely was a tripling of secret service agents likely that were on ground in advance. These agents were likely bolstered by ancillary department agents to provide the inner/outer bubbles that he moved in. 

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This Biden video is a deep fake, repeat not real.  But for the sake of debate given how fast the conflict has escalated in Ukraine is a draft perhaps not too far off in the near future?  

 

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29 minutes ago, Trelane said:

When it comes to the current president's activities and speeches, I am often left sad and disappointed. Not only by his limited grasp on what is truly important, but the failure of the American public when it comes to presidential elections (no not a Trump fan either).

Anyway, his trip to Ukraine was used as a political ploy for here at home. No doubting that. He had to show his "foreign policy in action" side since everyone keenly remembers the hasty and tragic withdrawal from Afghanistan. I personally don't think the international implications really don't have much to do with anything Biden has said (mumbled) or done. I'm sure there was some effect, but I don't think Putin takes him seriously at all.

However, the level of protection provided could have been layered with several governmental entities. In lieu of uniformed Soldiers, there likely was a tripling of secret service agents likely that were on ground in advance. These agents were likely bolstered by ancillary department agents to provide the inner/outer bubbles that he moved in. 

Thanks very much for your time, I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. Hope, your move went well and that your new assignment is made up of some decent people.:tu:

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12 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

You remember the Cuban missile crisis?

I do in fact, lets talk about it.

 Russia became friends with Cuba after the Cuban revolution and gave them money as well as needed supplies, one communist country to another.  That went on for a few years. 

Then Russia put  some ICBM's in Cuba and we told them to get them out which they did.

At any point did we invade Cuba? NO.  You know we could have easily done that. I doubt anybody would have stopped us, but we did not invade Cuba.

Did we bomb Havana and attempt to oust the Cuban communist government and assassinate Fidel Castro? NO

Did we invade Cuba and ravage the countryside raping citizens and murdering others  looking for communists?  NO

Did we try to make the island uninhabitable? NO.

We have lived with a communist country right off our coast for 50 years.

There have not been any nuclear weapons in Ukraine since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ronald Reagan era, 30 years ago. NATO has not said anything about bringing nuclear weapons into Ukraine.  If they had, Russia could have rightfully been upset. They could have threatened world war if NATO had not got the weapons out.  Most likely, NATO would have withdrawn them.

Even for the United States in its arrogance, it would have been a bad look for us to destroy Cuba over a pretext.  Putin invading Ukraine is like the US invading Cuba, not a justifiable response.

 

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1 hour ago, Trelane said:

Anyway, his trip to Ukraine was used as a political ploy for here at home. No doubting that.

I rather doubt that.  It gave him no benefit at home.  Those who hate him and do not want US involvement abroad have not changed their minds. 

Whether Biden mumbles or uses sign language is inconsequential.  He was there, that was the message, and the US populace was not the intended audience.  Europe and Ukraine were the target audience with Russia watching in the background.

Only a couple of years left until the next US election.  Domestic programs like the CHIPS act and infrastructure have to show results that are significant and popular enough  or they will be reversed. Aid has to get to Ukraine within that window or may be shut off.

Ukraine knows that is their time window also.  They have to defeat the Russian invasion or both parties will have to agree to a settlement by then.  Beyond that, the US may become an undependable ally for Ukraine and Europe.  They will have to stand on their own by then.

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13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I do in fact, lets talk about it.

 Russia became friends with Cuba after the Cuban revolution and gave them money as well as needed supplies, one communist country to another.  That went on for a few years. 

Then Russia put  some ICBM's in Cuba and we told them to get them out which they did.

At any point did we invade Cuba? NO.  You know we could have easily done that. I doubt anybody would have stopped us, but we did not invade Cuba.

Invading Cuba would have been a far less response than what we did. We literally threatened a nuclear holocaust. 

13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Did we bomb Havana and attempt to oust the Cuban communist government and assassinate Fidel Castro? NO

Did we invade Cuba and ravage the countryside raping citizens and murdering others  looking for communists?  NO

Did we try to make the island uninhabitable? NO.

We have lived with a communist country right off our coast for 50 years.

Were those countries in an agreement to fight together if one of them were attacked? NO. 

Those countries separated or united, first were not on our boarder, and second posed nowhere near the threat NATO, and it’s several nuclear armed countries pose. Or with its several well funded conventional militaries. 
 

This is not a threat about political ideology. It’s about forcing what’s considered an unfair advantage even for a nuclear power. 

13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

There have not been any nuclear weapons in Ukraine since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ronald Reagan era, 30 years ago. NATO has not said anything about bringing nuclear weapons into Ukraine.  If they had, Russia could have rightfully been upset. They could have threatened world war if NATO had not got the weapons out.  Most likely, NATO would have withdrawn them.

Why should Russia take solace in that? The fact that Ukraine is even being considered for NATO membership is a betrayal of trust. A agreement broken. At minimum Ukraine Will certainly be hosting NATO anti missile defense systems. You think we would tolerate a possible nullification of our nuclear deterrent? Even in part? NO.

13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Even for the United States in its arrogance, it would have been a bad look for us to destroy Cuba over a pretext.  Putin invading Ukraine is like the US invading Cuba, not a justifiable response.

 

I think most people would have taken that over the death of the planet. Through the tears of the President as he gave the announcement, I suspect it wasn’t a bluff. 

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5 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

I think most people would have taken that over the death of the planet.

So all a bully has to do is threaten world destruction to get his way?

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21 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I rather doubt that.  It gave him no benefit at home.  Those who hate him and do not want US involvement abroad have not changed their minds. 

Whether Biden mumbles or uses sign language is inconsequential.  He was there, that was the message, and the US populace was not the intended audience.  Europe and Ukraine were the target audience with Russia watching in the background.

Only a couple of years left until the next US election.  Domestic programs like the CHIPS act and infrastructure have to show results that are significant and popular enough  or they will be reversed. Aid has to get to Ukraine within that window or may be shut off.

Ukraine knows that is their time window also.  They have to defeat the Russian invasion or both parties will have to agree to a settlement by then.  Beyond that, the US may become an undependable ally for Ukraine and Europe.  They will have to stand on their own by then.

I didn't say it was successful. It was simply a ham-fisted attempt at trying to look strong on foreign policy. He has shown repeatedly he and his advisors are clearly not cut out for the job when it comes to US involvement on the world stage.

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22 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Thanks very much for your time, I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. Hope, your move went well and that your new assignment is made up of some decent people.:tu:

Thanks! yeah, things are finally getting settled and the office I'm assigned to now is a definite change of pace. A fine way to finish things up.

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1 hour ago, Trelane said:

Thanks! yeah, things are finally getting settled and the office I'm assigned to now is a definite change of pace. A fine way to finish things up.

I glad to hear it!:tu:

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5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

So all a bully has to do is threaten world destruction to get his way?

They left Cuba. 

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2 hours ago, Trelane said:

I didn't say it was successful. It was simply a ham-fisted attempt at trying to look strong on foreign policy. He has shown repeatedly he and his advisors are clearly not cut out for the job when it comes to US involvement on the world stage.

OK.  Are there things you would suggest doing differently?

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14 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

They left Cuba. 

So, the issue got resolved without invading Cuba, raping women and murdering children.  I guess that was exactly my point.  Russia was not looking to address grievances but to acquire territory when they invaded Ukraine.

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5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

So all a bully has to do is threaten world destruction to get his way?


There ya go, Tat.  Might Makes Right

Putin thinks that if he threatens the West with nuclear, that the West will cave and let him take what he wants. Ukraine, then Belarus, Poland, Moldova? Hmmmm.,

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12 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

So, the issue got resolved without invading Cuba, raping women and murdering children.  I guess that was exactly my point.  Russia was not looking to address grievances but to acquire territory when they invaded Ukraine.

Of course, a pure land grab.

The difference between Russia and Ukraine go way back. 
When Stalin rose to power in the USSR, he wanted cash badly, so he took as much grain from Ukraine - the breadbasket of the USSR, as he could to sell and let the people starve.

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46 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

So, the issue got resolved without invading Cuba, raping women and murdering children.  I guess that was exactly my point.  Russia was not looking to address grievances but to acquire territory when they invaded Ukraine.

Interesting theory. Though this isn’t the days of the Cuban missile crisis. Maybe the threat of nuclear annihilation would have worked. If, and only if they were actually ready to do it. 
 

Even more so, only if you thought your enemies would believe you. In this case, I highly doubt it. Nor do I believe it would have changed anything. 
 

So let’s go with option 1. Biden announces imminent Ukraine NATO membership and in turn Russia threatens nuclear holocaust. I ask you, you want to leave the next move to a senile old man? We are talking about the death of the planet. 
 

Im sure Russia doesn’t mind the idea of a land grab as a secondary prize. However if that’s what this was about, Putin would have done it while Obama was in office. Back when the US gave little support to Ukraine. Nor was NATO membership on the table. Much less risk at that time. 

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1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Of course, a pure land grab.

The difference between Russia and Ukraine go way back. 
When Stalin rose to power in the USSR, he wanted cash badly, so he took as much grain from Ukraine - the breadbasket of the USSR, as he could to sell and let the people starve.

Side note:

I looked into that Ukrainian bread basket claim a few months ago.  Turns out Russia produces more grain and wheat than Ukraine does.  

Edited by acidhead
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