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The real story of Atlantis


The Puzzler

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Let us start at the start.

Socrates. One, two, three; but where, my dear Timaeus, is the fourth of those who were yesterday my guests and are to be my entertainers to-day? “
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

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Plato was a philosopher, we all know that. Aristotle stated Plato made up the vision of Atlantis to make it fall. At that point, when I read that, I knew then Atlantis wasn’t a real place.

But, like a lot of people, it didn’t stop me searching. The whole story I believe encompasses a range of ideas, all thrown together in a mosh pit of Plato’s philosophy. Did it exist? Possibly a realm that he got inspiration from existed…what’s with the fractions expressed in the creation of the world and Atlantis, Pythagorean teachings? You know I know it is. 
We can all say it’s a philosophy paper on the governments hierarchy of the day, how Plato was telling us they murdered Socrates and democracy hypocrisy. How law-makers like Solon were going about their business, changing Laws…for the better? For who? Was Athens built on laws? How so? 

Edited by The Puzzler
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The island outside the Pillars of Heracles.

We do know sea level rise was a thing.

We do know the coastlines outside the Pillars were inhabited.

We know that before Phoenicians, the continent had relations with Great Britain.

We also know Greek mythology has many connections with North Africa, from Medusa, to Athena.

We should not expect to find it as it sank under the sea some 11,000 years ago.

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I’ve spent a lot of time trying to get into Plato’s mind, to understand how he created the story. 
Here’s a link to The Laws where specific comparisons could be made with Atlantis, what his interpretations were, outside of the Timaeus/Critias dialogues.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/laws.3.iii.html
 


Athenian Stranger. Enough of this. And what, then, is to be regarded as the origin of government? Will not a man be able to judge of it best from a point of view in which he may behold the progress of states and their transitions to good or evil? 

Cleinias. What do you mean? 
Ath. I mean that he might watch them from the point of view of time, and observe the changes which take place in them during infinite ages. 

Cle. How so? 
Ath. Why, do you think that you can reckon the time which has elapsed since cities first existed and men were citizens of them? 

Cle. Hardly. 
Ath. But are sure that it must be vast and incalculable? 
Cle. Certainly. 
Ath. And have not thousands and thousands of cities come into being during this period and as many perished? And has not each of them had every form of government many times over, now growing larger, now smaller, and again improving or declining? 

Cle. To be sure. 
Ath. Let us endeavour to ascertain the cause of these changes; for that will probably explain the first origin and development of forms of government. 

Cle. Very good. You shall endeavour to impart your thoughts to us, and we will make an effort to understand you. 

Ath. Do you believe that there is any truth in ancient traditions? 
Cle. What traditions? 
Ath. The traditions about the many destructions of mankind which have been occasioned by deluges and pestilences, and in many other ways, and of the survival of a remnant? 

Cle. Every one is disposed to believe them. 
Ath. Let us consider one of them, that which was caused by the famous deluge. 

Cle. What are we to observe about it? 
Ath. I mean to say that those who then escaped would only be hill shepherds-small sparks of the human race preserved on the tops of mountains?”

 

 

Edited by The Puzzler
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So Plato had this thought, that government had existed from ages ago, changing and reforming with each stage of mankind over-coming the effects of a destruction. 
I know it’s boring so far but it encompasses many layers that need to be explored and explained first.

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Cle. Very true. 
Ath. Let us suppose, then, that the cities in the plain and on the sea-coast were utterly destroyed at that time. 

Cle. Very good. 
Ath. Would not all implements have then perished and every other excellent invention of political or any other sort of wisdom have utterly disappeared? “

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He’s of the mind that destruction would cause everything to perish, to start a new.

 

5DB5CBF7-45F6-40C0-851D-4375CF163EF5.jpeg

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The end.

 

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@The Puzzler

You ever heard of "Erewhon", written by Samuel Buttler?

Maybe, thousands of years after our time, many will be searching for this "Erewhon".

Edited to add:

"Erewhon" is an anagram of "Nowhere".

Edited by Abramelin
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2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Plato was a philosopher

Keep thàt in mind.

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6 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

So Plato had this thought, that government had existed from ages ago, changing and reforming with each stage of mankind over-coming the effects of a destruction.   
I know it’s boring so far but it encompasses many layers that need to be explored and explained first.

After Plato died, his dialogues were initially considered self-explanatory to contemporary Greeks..  The first person to write any detailed commentary about any of Plato's dialogues was Crantor.  

Greek mindsets about past events (i.e. in Plato's era, and for some time afterwards) involved Hesiod's theme of the four Ages of Man, or the Ages of the World.  Thus in the Atlantis theme, when Poseidon takes control of Atlantis (and Zeus's Olympians receive control of Greece) -- any such activity belongs near the beginning of Hesiod's Silver Age.

 

citing from:  https://www.maicar.com/GML/AgesOfMan.html

The Silver Age 

Second generation [of humans]

After Cronos was banished, the world was ruled by Zeus. Then the OLYMPIANS made a second generation of men which was of silver and less noble than the race of the Golden Age.

Worse than its predecessor

Neither in body nor in soul was this race as its predecessor. At this time Zeus shortened the spring, and completed the year in four seasons, so that men for the first time sought the shelter of houses; for up to then their homes have been caves, dense thickets, and branches bound together with bark.

Destroyed by Zeus

It was in this age that the first seeds of grain were planted.  A child was brought up at his good mother's side a hundred years, playing childishly in his own home. But when they were grown up, they lived only a little time, and that in sorrow because of their foolishness; for they could not keep from wronging one another, nor would they serve the immortals. This behavior angered Zeus, and he put them away.

Edited by atalante
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We need to call in an expert.

@Piney is very knowledgeable on the subject of Atlantis, and it's his favorite topic.

 

Edited by acute
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28 minutes ago, acute said:

We need to call in an expert.

@Piney is very knowledgeable on the subject of Atlantis, and it's his favorite topic.

 

Grumble@#$%grumble@#$%&grumble..........hedgehogs need to go extinct.......<_<

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Many maps from the Roman Era and before place Atlantis in Mauritania, in Western North Africa.  How do you explain this occurring The Puzzler?

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16 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Many maps from the Roman Era and before place Atlantis in Mauritania, in Western North Africa.  How do you explain this occurring The Puzzler?

The best explanation is that they don't.

They show an area Herodotus wrote about whose natives Herodotus called "Atlantes" due to the fact that they lived in the shadow of the Atlas Mountains.

Harte

Edited by Harte
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2 hours ago, Harte said:

The best explanation is that they don't.

They show an area Herodotus wrote about whose natives Herodotus called "Atlantes" due to the fact that they lived in the shadow of the Atlas Mountains.

Harte

Atlas was the first king of Atlantis, for whom the mountains are named.  Diodorus of Sicily (imsmc) was clear about the fact that Atlantis was in Libya (the Roman era name for Africa), and that Atlantis had been invaded by Libyan Amazons after the fall of their major city well before the founding of Athens, as recorded by the Egyptians.

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25 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Atlas was the first king of Atlantis, for whom the mountains are named.  Diodorus of Sicily (imsmc) was clear about the fact that Atlantis was in Libya (the Roman era name for Africa), and that Atlantis had been invaded by Libyan Amazons after the fall of their major city well before the founding of Athens, as recorded by the Egyptians.

Which just means Diodorus wasn’t describing the Atlantis of Plato, but was more in line with Herodotus. 
 

cormac

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10 hours ago, Abramelin said:

@The Puzzler

You ever heard of "Erewhon", written by Samuel Buttler?

Maybe, thousands of years after our time, many will be searching for this "Erewhon".

Edited to add:

"Erewhon" is an anagram of "Nowhere".

Good one.

Thats the whole,point of this thread. To show how Atlantis as described literally by Plato is no where except in his head.

But, I always got a but…it doesn’t mean he was not inspired by some trueness that he believed in.

 

Edited by The Puzzler
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8 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

The real story of Atlantis was that it was made up by Plato to illustrate his political allegory.
That's it.

Yes, I agree. 
I also think though, he was inspired by what he thought may have occurred in the past.

Ath. Do you believe that there is any truth in ancient traditions? 
Cle. What traditions? 
Ath. The traditions about the many destructions of mankind which have been occasioned by deluges and pestilences, and in many other ways, and of the survival of a remnant? 

Cle. Every one is disposed to believe them. 

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/laws.3.iii.html

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3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Many maps from the Roman Era and before place Atlantis in Mauritania, in Western North Africa.  How do you explain this occurring The Puzzler?

Well, that’s a big question to me. I’ve studied the area extensively in research. Give me a moment to construct a proper answer in as few words as possible. 

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4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Many maps from the Roman Era and before place Atlantis in Mauritania, in Western North Africa.  How do you explain this occurring The Puzzler?

Yes, the maps show Mauritania as being in Western North Africa, not where Mauritania is today, where the Richat Structure stands. But in North Africa, land that is stated as when Berbers lived, they called these particular Mauritanians, the Mauri.

This is where a historical King Atlas lived. What should be noted is his Atlantian name. Atlas is not actually a Greek name, so we have a king here, given the same name as where Plato has Atlantis. This to me says, this is the original place of the Atlanteans to begin with, who had the language.

Its right next to where an island of said name may have been imagined to have been. Mythology connects Atlas to the Garden of the Hesperides and the Western Ocean.

A thought is, these Berbers of Mauritania who had the same language as Atlanteans, lived on the Atlas Mountains, were the only people (Libyans)) to worship Poseidon at first directed the establishment of Gods in Greece.

Herodotus tells us this, a Libyan priestess went to Greece, where the Pelasgic population had no names for the “disposers” the arrangers of nature and the cosmos, that she named them all. 
So, the Gods of Greece, don’t all have Hellenic names, they have Libyan names. Some have been transferred over time to become Greek but some weren’t. Atlas is one of these names.

This area was inhabited by the Atlantes, the people of the Atlas Mountains, named perhaps not after the Greek God Atlas but by the actual inhabitants who had their own mythological King Atlas.

Thats why it’s seen as Atlantes, in some maps. It’s the area around Mt Atlas, the real question is did they name themselves that or was it a term derived from…Greece. 

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6F0E9310-F4EC-45EF-A432-2126C4BE4CA7.jpeg

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The first religious institutions in Greece were not Greek, they were Libyan. Even Athens.

Hellenic Dorians would have had barely any notion of Gods except for a few steppe concepts, most likely of afterlife but nothing of what worked its way into the Greek mythology psyche. 
The Pelasgic Athenians imo would have been a Cycladic culture who were introduced to the ideas while interacting with ancient Crete. mentions of Theseus on Crete, an Athenian culture hero, tells us this. 
Again, I’d be predisposed to think the religion on Crete was Libyan based. The Gods Poseidon and Athena are written in Linear B, both had Libyan heritage. We see dark skinned men in white, like priests on the boats in images from Akrotiri. It appears they moved around imparting their beliefs all through the Mediterranean.

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Egypt never took on Poseidon as a God and Athens rejected him also, in favour of Athena.

The very influential culture of North West Africa did not gather momentum in either of these places. 
Could it be the Athenians didn’t put their faith in Poseidon after his aggressiveness on the Aegean Sea and Santorini.

The story of the contest of Athens between Poseidon and Athena represents to me, the conclusion of the war of Atlantis.

atalante here rightly pointed out a confusion I had, the names mentioned by Plato are not within this contest but from the war of Athens against Eleusis but I do have a thread on this war being Atlantis previously, I just over looked it. The pre-curser to the division. 

His reign was marked by the war between Athens and Eleusis, when the Eleusinians were commanded by Eumolpus, coming from  Thrace

In the following battle between the forces of Athens and Eleusis, Erechtheus won the battle and slew Eumolpus, but then himself fell, struck down by Poseidon's trident.[13] According to fragments of Euripides' tragedy Erechtheus, Poseidon avenged his son Eumolpus' death by driving Erechtheus into the earth with blows of his trident,”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erechtheus

Eumolpus is not even Greek, he’s Thracian, but as a son of Poseidon, it makes him originally Libyan, an Atlantean.

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