Joan Tollifson on the relation of addiction to capitalism-consumerism

[+Razman]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

The one thing I know about beliefs is how they shape perception and behavior. No one's thoughts are "magicing' millions of dollars out of thin air. 

Money is just a concept as well , i believe that a source(spirit , energy , god , consciousness , intelligence , ) , whatever one calls it , we are created from with the ability to create ourselves.  People read the bible and it says that we are created in his image , so they say , " does he look like us ?, is he green , white , black ? " , but the concept of god to many is that  he is a creator , that dreams worlds and universes into existence. So ( again this is my view or say , belief) , we are creating this world in real time, overlapping each other in a way , and our beliefs and other factors are part of shaping it. People blame god often for the way it is or bad or good things that happen , but it is us doing it , not god ( again , just my view or belief). So on the other side of the veil so to speak things may not be much different as far as our consciousness goes , we exchange ideas and work together to come up with new plans of action.

[+Razman]

33 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No one's thoughts are "magicing' millions of dollars out of thin air.

My view as i was saying above ( which it can be hard to put an individual view across since we are all unique ) , is that it is not magic per se , the same with miracles , it is just a cause and effect relation between consciousness and physics. For those that believe what the bible says or Jesus said , i think that he said at one point that we all could do the same things that he did and more. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by razman

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, razman said:

My view as i was saying above ( which it can be hard to put an individual view across since we are all unique ) , is that it is not magic per se , the same with miracles , it is just a cause and effect relation between consciousness and physics. For those that believe what the bible says or Jesus said , i think that he said at one point that we all could do the same things that he did and more. 

There is just no proof of that though. 

24 minutes ago, razman said:

Money is just a concept as well , i believe that a source(spirit , energy , god , consciousness , intelligence , ) , whatever one calls it , we are created from with the ability to create ourselves.  People read the bible and it says that we are created in his image , so they say , " does he look like us ?, is he green , white , black ? " , but the concept of god to many is that  he is a creator , that dreams worlds and universes into existence. So ( again this is my view or say , belief) , we are creating this world in real time, overlapping each other in a way , and our beliefs and other factors are part of shaping it. People blame god often for the way it is or bad or good things that happen , but it is us doing it , not god ( again , just my view or belief). So on the other side of the veil so to speak things may not be much different as far as our consciousness goes , we exchange ideas and work together to come up with new plans of action.

Since we are the one doing all the work. Then this is zero reason for a god at all. It is us and only us. Why bother having faith in some higher power, unless a person proclaims they are god which is very egotistical. Possibly narcissistic as well. 

[+Razman]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

There is just no proof of that though. 

Not from our current point of view , no. But i believe that it is intentionally this way , for various reasons. Like the saying " drink responsibly" , maybe we are learning to create responsibly? 

[XenoFish]

Just now, razman said:

Not from our current point of view , no. But i believe that it is intentionally this way , for various reasons. Like the saying " drink responsibly" , maybe we are learning to create responsibly? 

We as a species have had a very long time to learn responsibility and I've read too many accounts of paranormal powers. All of which were just empty. Plus spent too much of my life trying. It was a waste honestly. 

[+Razman]

11 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Since we are the one doing all the work. Then this is zero reason for a god at all. It is us and only us. Why bother having faith in some higher power, unless a person proclaims they are god which is very egotistical. Possibly narcissistic as well. 

Well from my view again, its not only us , there are countless numbers of beings involved in this from all across existence in various ways , like coaches or guides as they have been called , or even like co workers in a way ,as well as just friends and maybe like family and they are learning at the same time from what we do. As far as being god , its like , we are all god, each a part , and at some level completely unlimited and therefore equal. Its not like someone is a greater part of god than another , just different. Though some may have more direct experience in certain areas , by what they have been studying and experiencing through existence.

Edited March 5, 2023 by razman

[+Razman]

5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

We as a species have had a very long time to learn responsibility and I've read too many accounts of paranormal powers. All of which were just empty. Plus spent too much of my life trying. It was a waste honestly. 

I know , me too , but i still seek answers if i can , but it can be difficult. 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, razman said:

Well from my view again, its not only us , there are countless numbers of beings involved in this from all across existence in various ways , like coaches or guides as they have been called , or even like co workers in a way , and they are learning at the same time from what we do. As far as being god , its like , we are all god, each a part , and at some level completely unlimited and therefore equal. Its not like someone is a greater part of god than another , just different. Though some may have more direct experience in certain areas , by what they have been studying and experiencing through existence.

Yeah, I'm done with this conversation. There is just so much nope that I'm no longer willing to engage. Good luck. Maybe someone will tell you you're right and all that stuff.

[+Razman]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Yeah, I'm done with this conversation. There is just so much nope that I'm no longer willing to engage. Good luck. Maybe someone will tell you you're right and all that stuff.

Yea i dont know if my view is right or not , its just the best i can do trying to understand it more ,and make sense of it ,  but  if there is something more, then we will all probably find out when we die.

Edited March 5, 2023 by razman

[+Razman]

Which begs the question , how the heck did i get all on about the spiritual thing in this capitalism thread?Sorry Ajay

[Alchopwn]

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

How do you know the Big Bang isn't sentient? because if it isn't, then that proves that (b)GOD exists , by virtue that (a) we are sentient life forms .

(a) does not prove (b).  The mere fact that we are sentient doesn't mean there has to be a deity.  Given that life is an emergent property of carbon in combination with water and other elements, then sentience is an outcome of the same chemistry that promotes more complexity via the less successful reactions nor reproducing.  This eventually builds chemical programming which becomes instinct, which in turn becomes sentience, but may not appear as sentience to more sentient beings.

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

How do you know the Big Bang isn't sentient?

It is very easy to determine.  Large clouds of elementary particles don't display any behavior that suggests consideration of its environment, such as we might find in even the most basic life forms,.let alone actually sentient beings like humanity.  We have a very good record of the Big Bang in the Background Cosmic Radiation of the universe.  No sentience in that pattern, just random explosion chaos, with far less intrinsic order than a cannon shell going off.

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Does Satan want peace, harmony, and freedom for all beings...

I intend to play Devil's Advocate here.  Actually, the Bible isn't very clear on Satan's motives.  We really only hear one side of the story, and it all seems a bit like Russian Propaganda, given the internal inconsistencies in the "Testaments".  It may well be that Satan only rebelled against God because he knew God was being horrid to his creations.  We only hear god's side of the story, and given that Genesis is a complete lie when it comes to how the Universe was created, who knows what else God has lied about?

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

, does he want love to rule ones heart and mind?

I think that most demons want love to rule our hearts and minds.  Remember there are a LOT of ways to define love.  For example, God's love is jealous, petty, destructive, genocidal, sadomasochistic, sick love.  I suspect that demonic love is much the same.  Remember that God is responsible for the demonic uprising.  He knew it was coming because he is omniscient, but he allowed it so he could punish his creations, because he is a sadist and built them to fail.

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And, does Satan want everyone to go to Heaven

 If Satan rules heaven, who knows what he will do. Satan seems very tolerant of human frailty, it must be said.  Better yet, Satan accepts us just the way we are, rather than trying to improve ourselves, because he knows God built us to fail.  When the forces of Hell haul down the Pearly Gates and cast down the Evil Wizard, it is possible that Satan will prove an enlightened ruler, like so many the Church Fathers have viciously condemned.  We only have the Bible to suggest that Satan is the bad guy.  However, when we look at what a cruel underachiever God is, we really need to question whether the universe actually needs a change of leadership; a new government to replace the Stalinism our afterlife is presently subject to.  As America is the Great Satan, I think I can get behind a War of Independence style revolution in Heaven.  A casting down of a tyrannical old bearded sky sorcerer seems like a good thing.

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

does he forgive his enemies,

I think Satan may be even more forgiving that Jesus, because he knows God built all his creations to fail.

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

does he want beauty and creativity to govern mans thoughts?

Popular wisdom has it that the devil has the best tunes.  History shows us however that the church by comparison has condemned many great artists for not pushing their propaganda, declaring them in service of the devil, for daring to express their own vision. Consider the utter hostility most protestant sects hold for any form of human entertainment. Satan appears to be on the right side of history most of the time.

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Does Satan want peace on Earth amongst all men?

We might ask the same about God.  There is no evidence to suggest that either of them care much for peace.  Remember God created Satan from a position of omniscience, knowing that Satan would rebel, and deliberately allowing it.  God is the author of evil by his own admission.  He deliberately started the fight and actually also deliberately built his enemy.  Does this sound like peace-loving to you?

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Does Satan rule in darkness, or light?

 Satan's other name is Lucifer, the Bright Morning Star, the Bringer of Light.  Yet others say he is a thing of darkness.  Admittedly there seems to be far more darkness in the Universe than light.  Stars comprise only a tiny portion of the total size of the universe after all; a statistically insignificant portion even.  Then again, this whole light issue in Christianity has its origins in what is called Solar Christianity, which was a movement in the early church that combined Solar Worship of Sol Invictus into Christian liturgy, and into the mass in the form of the Monstrance.  It's pure paganism.  So, is your god a god of light or darkness?  Satan seems to have a foot in both.  It also must be said that Darkness too is necessary for living things to flourish on this planet.  Many species are nocturnal.  Similarly, just because some humans have a preference for mornings doesn't mean that they are more righteous than night owls.  Both night and day are needed.

16 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And, does Satan surrender to GODs Will?

 Surrendering to another's will is something a tyrant like Stalin demands, and is not the purview of anyone who is good, let alone omnibenevolent.  This whole idea is sick and evil, and further proof that your god is a monster.  Consider Tolkien's deity of Middle Earth, Eru Illuvitar.  He never expects anyone or anything to "surrender their will" to him.  He never demands worship, only that you live well and be kind as much as you can.  I think Eru Illuvitar is a much better model of an omnibenevolent god than the horror presented to us in the Bible.  Do you want to surrender your will to this Stalinistic god of gulags?  This bearded sky tyrant?

16 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

GOD is the Source of everything, and yet have free will.

Your god tells us he created everything, but genesis is laden with obvious mistakes which prove his story is a lie.  He speaks of firmaments that don't exist, and has no understanding of how the evaporative process of the water cycle functions on this planet, for example.  This picture gets even more out of whack with reality when we consider what is written in the ludicrous Book of Enoch.  It was so ridiculous that even the Church Fathers had to reject this mad work of fanfic.  I mean, angels pumping on bellows and pouring water into sieves to make rain...  Cuckoo!

Then there is the old Free Will problem.  If God is omnipotent, then we don't have free will, because God can stop us exercising our free will any time we like and we would never even know he had done so.  John Calvin made a very perspicacious argument against the doctrine of Free Will, that is far more logical than the Catholic claptrap that America's supposedly protestant theologians pedal.  I suggest you properly acquaint yourself with it.

16 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

No, I am suggesting that we have free will, again.

Simply put, if an omnipotent deity exists, then Free Will is at best a cruel illusion.  And what is the point of it?  If we exercise free will, we become out of step with God and are damned for all eternity.  We have been designed to fail by a sadistic Stalinistic monster who wants us to populate an eternal gulag, if Christianity is to be believed.

Thankfully it is all just a great big lie told to fool the unwary and put money on the donation plate.  Time to put away childish things.

 

[Rlyeh]

18 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Does Satan want peace, harmony, and freedom for all beings, does he want love to rule ones heart and mind? And, does Satan want everyone to go to Heaven, does he forgive his enemies, does he want beauty and creativity to govern mans thoughts? Does Satan want peace on Earth amongst all men?

God isn't big on these things either.

 

18 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And, does Satan surrender to GODs Will?

Well yes, Satan does what God allows him to do.

 

18 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

GOD is the Source of everything, and yet have free will.

Including evil.

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

God isn't big on these things either.

 

Well yes, Satan does what God allows him to do.

 

Including evil.

The GOD of Christ is Love.

The God of the Talmud is Satan.

People get to choose which one they want to worship.

And, GOD allowing Satan to do his thing doesn't mean that Satan has surrendered to GOD, that's just plain idiotic.

[Rlyeh]

58 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

The GOD of Christ is Love.

Who loves death.

 

58 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

The God of the Talmud is Satan.

If he can be his own father, why not his own enemy.

 

58 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

People get to choose which one they want to worship.

In your case imagination.

 

58 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And, GOD allowing Satan to do his thing doesn't mean that Satan has surrendered to GOD, that's just plain idiotic.

Not surprising you justify such idiocy.

[Crazy Horse]

9 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

 

In your case imagination.

 

Do not, underestimate imagination my friend.

Thoughts create our reality.

Thoughts are powerful things.

And ones imagination adds power, to those thoughts, a power that you might not welcome.

[+Razman]

4 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

The God of the Talmud is Satan.

The Talmud , boy , thats a nasty piece of work IMO.

Edited March 6, 2023 by razman

[Crazy Horse]

4 hours ago, razman said:

The Talmud , boy , thats a nasty piece of work IMO.

Its why the world is in such a mess.

But, (spoiler alert) good and love and honour and compassion win every single time, period.

[+Razman]

On 3/5/2023 at 8:25 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Intelligent Energy is good.

 

I made a print on demand design about this. This conversation gave me the idea . 

[Piney]

On 3/6/2023 at 8:14 AM, razman said:

The Talmud , boy , thats a nasty piece of work IMO.

I actually like Ben Sira and Leviticus is a good medical manual for desert nomads on the march. It just doesn't apply anymore.

[Alchopwn]

On 3/6/2023 at 7:34 PM, Crazy Horse said:

The GOD of Christ is Love.

But a petty, jealous sadomasochistic love. Remember god comes to earth as Jesus to be tortured and to die because of feeling bad about his neglectful treatment of Adam and Eve., and the creation of Original Sin. It is sick.

On 3/6/2023 at 7:34 PM, Crazy Horse said:

The God of the Talmud is Satan.

Now you are just being anti-Semitic.

On 3/6/2023 at 7:34 PM, Crazy Horse said:

People get to choose which one they want to worship.

This is a stupid choice.  What if you think both are terrible and want nothing to do with either of them?  Buddha tells us not to worship evil gods.  The god of monotheism is not good.

On 3/6/2023 at 7:34 PM, Crazy Horse said:

And, GOD allowing Satan to do his thing doesn't mean that Satan has surrendered to GOD, that's just plain idiotic.

Actually no.  The Angel Samael is sent to test humanity and is not an enemy of god, but a loyal servant.  Samael only becomes Satan in Christianity.  It is Samael who tests Job, not Satan for example.  The problem of evil emerges mainly in Christian theology.  In Judaism, God is the author of both good and evil as the Bible clearly says, and gods enemies are the other gods who are false.

[+Razman]

2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

But a petty, jealous sadomasochistic love. Remember god comes to earth as Jesus to be tortured and to die because of feeling bad about his neglectful treatment of Adam and Eve., and the creation of Original Sin. It is sick.

Now you are just being anti-Semitic.

This is a stupid choice.  What if you think both are terrible and want nothing to do with either of them?  Buddha tells us not to worship evil gods.  The god of monotheism is not good.

Actually no.  The Angel Samael is sent to test humanity and is not an enemy of god, but a loyal servant.  Samael only becomes Satan in Christianity.  It is Samael who tests Job, not Satan for example.  The problem of evil emerges mainly in Christian theology.  In Judaism, God is the author of both good and evil as the Bible clearly says, and gods enemies are the other gods who are false.

Sounds like you got a deep seated anger towards god.  In my opinion much of this written stuff is misunderstood , manipulated , or taken out of context. Like the bible and other ancient texts for example.

Edited March 13, 2023 by razman

[Alchopwn]

47 minutes ago, razman said:

Sounds like you got a deep seated anger towards god.  In my opinion much of this written stuff is misunderstood , manipulated , or taken out of context. Like the bible and other ancient texts for example.

How can anyone have deep seated anger against something that doesn't exist?  That is patently silly.  What you call "written stuff" most theologians call "SCRIPTURE" and it is the only basis for a meaningful Christian faith.  Without SCRIPTURE there is no Christianity. 

Now I ask you, given that your god is All-powerful, All-knowing, and Completely Benevolent, how can the written stuff be misunderstood, manipulated, or taken out of context?  Your god will instantly know if anyone is making a mistake whether in translation, interpretation, or because they want to manipulate people, because he is all-knowing, and because he is completely benevolent, he won't want innocent and good hearted people to go to hell over a misunderstanding, so he will use his absolute power to gently nudge that person back on track.  If he does anything less than that, he is none of those things.  As the Bible is full of mistakes, that is proof positive that this all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely benevolent god doesn't exist.  An all knowing god would know the mistakes, a completely benevolent god won't want to mislead anyone, and an all powerful god has the power to correct the mistakes without anyone noticing, yet by your own admission, the Bible is full of crap.

[+Liquid Gardens]

15 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

he won't want innocent and good hearted people to go to hell over a misunderstanding

I don't know why they would go to hell then, God doesn't misunderstand anything and "has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy".  Your statement implies there are rules God has to follow which doesn't make much sense.

16 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

As the Bible is full of mistakes, that is proof positive that this all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely benevolent god doesn't exist.

Not sure why, my Bible doesn't say the books within were authored by God and some say specifically they weren't, other than the Commandments at best it says it was 'inspired by God'.  So was Narnia for that matter.  The Bible also seems to imply I thought that there are other ways than scripture, like prayer, to obtain information about how to bring one's life into conformity with whatever God wants one to do/believe, so every word of the Bible being literally true and understood accurately is not necessary.

[jmccr8]

Well 5 pages in and haven’t seen many confess an addiction to capitalism or commercialism. It is a system we live in that has both benefits and faults like anything else and each individual is free to engage it in a productive manner.

[+Razman]

8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

the Bible is full of crap.

Maybe not completely , but definitely could use some serious cherrypicking . I mainly was noticing several multiple quote rants from you about god earlier in this thread.

 

8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

An all knowing god would know the mistakes, a completely benevolent god won't want to mislead anyone, and an all powerful god has the power to correct the mistakes without anyone noticing,

I think its simply that what we might consider god is not making decisions for us, we are doing it , we are here to learn. If a god or source or whatever one calls it was correcting everything , then we would be doing nothing ,and learning nothing. In my opinion , nobody goes to hell , or even heaven as it has been spoke about. Heaven and hell are  just concepts , maybe more like a multidimensional thing. I believe we are creating our reality and environment , and when we leave the body we do the same thing , but in a quite different set of circumstances. So if someone is really hung up on Hell and is seriously swayed by it , then when they leave here , their environment could seem a lot like hell, for a while maybe , til they understand and remember again that they are creating their environment.

Edited March 13, 2023 by razman