Scientists reveal hidden corridor in Great Pyramid of Giza

[Megaro]

Very interesting.  Are we seeing any of the red masons mark in this new feature such as in the known relieving chambers?

[Scott Creighton]

On 3/6/2023 at 9:23 PM, Wepwawet said:

 

"I can see why the idea of a cache of royal mummies in G1 is attractive, though I think the idea for this is based on the much later caches in the VoK and the communal burial for a few kings at Tanis."

“the idea for this”?   If anything, the later caches will have been influenced by the earlier.  That’s generally how things work. At the end of the day, it was about protecting the the remains of the Kings (and their queens).  Perhaps the earlier relocation I propose to the GP was the original precursor/model for later attempts with later dynasties?

“If there were a cache of OK, and even MK royals, then IMO it would have been created early in the 18th Dynasty…”

How, exactly, do you think anyone in the 18^th Dynasty would be able to locate the remains of Khufu’s ancestors (twenty-seven 3^rd & 4^th dynasty kings & queens) and relocate them to a chamber within the GP (the Big Void) that was entirely inaccessible to them? 

“If 3rd and 4th Dynasty kings were cached in G1, what would be the point of Khafre building his own pyramid if he is going to be buried in G1…”

This presupposes that Khafre was building a pyramid for his very own burial. You might accept that this is what Khafre was doing - I don’t.  My perspective is quite different and is founded upon what the so-called ‘legend’ of Saurid tells us. IMO the original plan was to construct 14 or 16 pyramid ‘recovery vaults’ in total hence why the allegorical ‘body of Osiris’ in the myth of Isis and Osiris was cut into 14/16 pieces and scattered across the land. These 14/16 pyramids represent the allegorical ‘body of Osiris’, the AE god of rebirth/revivication. Each OK AE king would build as many pyramid ‘recovery vaults’ as he could in his lifetime.

The kingdom, according to the Saurid ‘legend’ was under threat and would be utterly laid waste by a great deluge. This is, according to the ‘legend’, what the AEs believed was the fate of their kingdom. The pyramids (according to the Saurid ‘legend’), would be used to store everything within the kingdom that was vital to bring about its rebirth. As such, these first pyramids were actually (imo) ‘recovery vaults’ to ensure the rebirth/revivication of the [i]kingdom[/i] (i.e. the earth) - [i]not[/i] the king (although as the Osirian doctrine evolved, building a pyramid would, in time, almost certainly have become a religious rite of the king himself, for [i]his[/i] very own recovery/revivication would now require a pyramid). But that was not, imo, the [i]original[/i] purpose of the first pyramids. It’s not what the ‘Saurid legend’ tells us.

Of course, the most [i]vital[/i] aspect of this grand ‘recovery plan’ for the kingdom would be to ensure that the bodies of the ancestor kings were not destroyed or washed away by the anticipated deluge. These dead kings were the ‘god-kings’ that could intercede and commune with the gods in the heavens to ensure the well-being of the living kingdom. Were all of these ancestor kings lost in the coming deluge, then there could be no hope of any recovery of the kingdom. Egypt would never recover, rise phoenix-like, if this were to happen. It may sound strange to our modern ears, but that is essentially what the AEs believed. As such, the plan included that at least one of their great pyramid recovery vaults would protect and become an everlasting refuge for the ancestor kings – i.e. the ‘Big Void’ in the GP.  The Grand Gallery just below would, imo, contain a Ka statue of each ancestor king (and queen) placed in the Big Void (should the king’s body become too decayed).  These GG ka statues have, of course, long since vanished.  But there are some ancient accounts that they did once exist in the Grand Gallery.

”…what purpose would G2 serve.”

Each pyramid essentially served as a cairn, marking the location of recovery goods which the survivors of the coming deluge could easily find and have access to the life-sustaining items placed in, under and all around them.  Look at the 100+ so-called ‘galleries’ to the west of G2.  Even now Egyptologists accept that these enigmatic underground features were ‘warehouses’ of some kind.  They’re right – just not in the way they imagine. IMO.

But G2 tells us much more. It tells us that the AEs had great veneration for the earth, for their kingdom. The construction of the pyramids (as said above), was all about the recovery of the kingdom, of the earth after the deluge had passed. They venerated the earth. This is why in G2, in 1818, Belzoni opened the sarcophagus in G2 to discover a container of earth and bull bones.  (The bull bones symbolised the fecundity of the earth). They were called neb-ankh ‘containers of life’. Later AE dynasties knew this, they knew these stone boxes contained precious and venerated AE earth because they replicated what they knew these sarcophagi contained with their very own symbolic neb-ankh (which Egyptologists call ‘Osiris Bricks’). The granite box of earth found in G2 formed part of a deep chthonic ritual for the hope for revivication of the earth after the anticipated deluge had laid it waste. Yes, IM

"If the GG originally contained 27 ka statues, would it not be expected that some remains of them would have been found, after all, they have no value and be of no interest to robbers."

What happened to them? I speculate in my last book that they may be explained by the phenomenon of the so-called ‘reserved heads’, to wit:

From The Great Pyramid Void Enigma:

 

More on the Reserved Heads here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_head#:~:text=Most of the reserve heads,Dynasty to early 5th Dynasty.&text=Head was found in burial,and may represent Kanefer's wife.

SC

[Windowpane]

3 hours ago, Megaro said:

Very interesting.  Are we seeing any of the red masons mark in this new feature such as in the known relieving chambers?

None seems to be visible so far.

[Windowpane]

34 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

...

My perspective is quite different and is founded upon what the so-called ‘legend’ of Saurid tells us.

...

It's not a so-called legend.

The legend is real.

But the events it recounts are imaginary.

Clearly.

[Wepwawet]

40 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

"I can see why the idea of a cache of royal mummies in G1 is attractive, though I think the idea for this is based on the much later caches in the VoK and the communal burial for a few kings at Tanis."

“the idea for this”?   If anything, the later caches will have been influenced by the earlier.  That’s generally how things work. At the end of the day, it was about protecting the the remains of the Kings (and their queens).  Perhaps the earlier relocation I propose to the GP was the original precursor/model for later attempts with later dynasties?

“If there were a cache of OK, and even MK royals, then IMO it would have been created early in the 18th Dynasty…”

How, exactly, do you think anyone in the 18^th Dynasty would be able to locate the remains of Khufu’s ancestors (twenty-seven 3^rd & 4^th dynasty kings & queens) and relocate them to a chamber within the GP (the Big Void) that was entirely inaccessible to them? 

 

As it's getting on in time, I'll just reply to these points now.

What I mean about thinking about caches at all for the 4th Dynasty is that it is us, who seeing later caches, know that it was something that the AE did. I think that if they had not made the two VoK caches, then it is less likely for anybody to think that they ever did such a thing, not impossible, but the fact of the two caches cannot but inform our thinking, our speculations.

I did say that I did not believe that any caches of earlier kings were made in the 18th Dynasty, only that if they had been made, then it would be more likely to have happened in the 18th Dynasty. My reasons for thinking this is that they moved the royal necropolis to Thebes in order to better protect their tombs than had been the case. By the end of the Second Intermediate Period it is I think likely that just about all the OK and MK pyramids had been robbed. So while perhaps not likely, it is not inconceivable that those remains of OK and MK kings that could be recovered, were repaired and re-buried in a central location. I do not propose for one second that any remains would have been placed in the big void of G1 as they would have had no idea of it's existance.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Wepwawet

[cormac mac airt]

10 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

...

It's not a so-called legend.

The legend is real.

But the events it recounts are imaginary.

Clearly.

Not much of a legend though IMO if it originates as Medieval lore separated from the time of Khufu by some 3000+ years. It’d be just as pointless as claiming to know what one’s 200th Great Grandfather thought about someone he knew. 
 

cormac

[Megaro]

3 hours ago, Windowpane said:

None seems to be visible so far.

That’s interesting.   We have the scribe lines in, for example Campbell’s chamber.   Not the graffiti or work gang symbols, but plum lines seemingly for precise construction.  Why nothing like that here?   I’m not an advocate of the Sitchin / Creighton Vyse lied harangue.  Yet, why no evidence of construction markings here?   I think it’s worthy of some debate

[Wepwawet]

9 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

”…what purpose would G2 serve.”

 

Each pyramid essentially served as a cairn, marking the location of recovery goods which the survivors of the coming deluge could easily find and have access to the life-sustaining items placed in, under and all around them.  Look at the 100+ so-called ‘galleries’ to the west of G2.  Even now Egyptologists accept that these enigmatic underground features were ‘warehouses’ of some kind.  They’re right – just not in the way they imagine. IMO.

But G2 tells us much more. It tells us that the AEs had great veneration for the earth, for their kingdom. The construction of the pyramids (as said above), was all about the recovery of the kingdom, of the earth after the deluge had passed. They venerated the earth. This is why in G2, in 1818, Belzoni opened the sarcophagus in G2 to discover a container of earth and bull bones.  (The bull bones symbolised the fecundity of the earth). They were called neb-ankh ‘containers of life’. Later AE dynasties knew this, they knew these stone boxes contained precious and venerated AE earth because they replicated what they knew these sarcophagi contained with their very own symbolic neb-ankh (which Egyptologists call ‘Osiris Bricks’). The granite box of earth found in G2 formed part of a deep chthonic ritual for the hope for revivication of the earth after the anticipated deluge had laid it waste. Yes, IM

"If the GG originally contained 27 ka statues, would it not be expected that some remains of them would have been found, after all, they have no value and be of no interest to robbers."

What happened to them? I speculate in my last book that they may be explained by the phenomenon of the so-called ‘reserved heads’, to wit:

I'm aware of your hypothesis about pyramids as "storage vaults", and cannot agree with it in any of it's details. Therefore, the question I posed about the purpose of G2 if Khafre was not buried in it remains to be answered in a conventional manner. That's not to be disparaging, it's just that there can be no middle ground here as pyramids are either what the majority belive them to be, tombs, or something very different, and that is an argument I have no intention of engaging in as it would be fruitless.

The reserve heads are not found in pyramids, only the mastabas at Giza. However, maybe the kings had reserve heads in their mortuary chapels, and long gone. The heads themselves though were not made to be part of a ka statue, the base of them is flush where a socket would be expected if they were for a statue. So if not part of a ka statue, what evidence is there for ka statues in G1, and why would there be any when they would be at a place where offerings are made. This is why ka statues are found in the chapels of mastabas, and those for kings I am sure would have been in their mortuary chapel. The serdab in the Queen's Chamber, which looks like it may have held a ka statue being, like so much else of G1, an enigma. Maybe it did have a statue and that part of the pyramid was left open for ritual purposes, and maybe Khufu is under the Queen's Chamber, or some one or something else as increasingly seems possible. Haswass in the Egytpian press has stated that Khufu is under this new void, but as all his pronouncements need to be carefully looked at, he may be refering to Khufu being somewhere that a potential filled in passage under the void leads to, and that could be under the Queens Chamber, or even in the big void.

[docyabut2]

It could be the builders of the GP tomb put  Khafre `s inter organs in the tomb .

 

https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/pyramid-air-shafts/

Edited March 8, 2023 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

 

tools 

https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/queenschambergp/

Three strange objects were found in the Queen’s chamber; a granite sphere, a wooden slat,

 

 it could be the tools -The opening of the mouth ritual" (OMR) is a central and well-documented component of the Ancient Egyptian mortuary ceremony. In the scientific literature, we find various references that indicate that parts of this ritual correspond to physical opening of the deceased's mouth during its mummification.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25998653/#:~:text="The opening of the mouth ritual" (OMR) is,deceased's mouth during its mummification.

Edited March 8, 2023 by docyabut2

[Thanos5150]

2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

 

tools 

https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/queenschambergp/

Three strange objects were found in the Queen’s chamber; a granite sphere, a wooden slat,

 

 it could be the tools -The opening of the mouth ritual" (OMR) is a central and well-documented component of the Ancient Egyptian mortuary ceremony. In the scientific literature, we find various references that indicate that parts of this ritual correspond to physical opening of the deceased's mouth during its mummification.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25998653/#:~:text="The opening of the mouth ritual" (OMR) is,deceased's mouth during its mummification.

It is not a pesesh-kef knife (Merrell goes by the name of Windowpane at UM). First offered by Robert Bauval, one of the dumber theories you will find. 

It is a tool meant to be affixed to a handle. Maybe having something to do with these:

Edited March 8, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

18 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

But G2 tells us much more. It tells us that the AEs had great veneration for the earth, for their kingdom. The construction of the pyramids (as said above), was all about the recovery of the kingdom, of the earth after the deluge had passed. They venerated the earth. This is why in G2, in 1818, Belzoni opened the sarcophagus in G2 to discover a container of earth and bull bones.  (The bull bones symbolised the fecundity of the earth).

And:

Quote

They were called neb-ankh ‘containers of life’. Later AE dynasties knew this, they knew these stone boxes contained precious and venerated AE earth because they replicated what they knew these sarcophagi contained with their very own symbolic neb-ankh (which Egyptologists call ‘Osiris Bricks’). The granite box of earth found in G2 formed part of a deep chthonic ritual for the hope for revivication of the earth after the anticipated deluge had laid it waste.

From 6yrs ago:

Martin Stower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The sampler is here:

[www.atlantisrising.com]

[Thanos:] Wow. I can't believe after my debunking of his willful misrepresentation of Belzoni's discovery regarding the state of Khafre's sarcophagus that here he is publishing an article about it using his same misleading mock-up of a dirt filled "stone box" with the same bogus commentary relating to Osiris beds as if it never happened.

The G2 sarcophagus discussion:

Here
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE

Partially continued from an earlier thread which I eviscerate his Osiris bed nonsense:
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE

Funny how he does not refer back to these Graham Hancock Forum discussions nor cite me as a reference. Oh, well. 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Quote

What happened to them? I speculate in my last book that they may be explained by the phenomenon of the so-called ‘reserved heads’, to wit:

Good grief Scott. The reserve heads were not a part of any statue and are made specifically to rest flat on the neck. You are just making something up out of nothing. 

Regarding the damage, just compare Scott's interpretation to Wikipedia, the very source he cites:

Quote

Almost all of the heads show some form of damage or mutilation that may or may not have been deliberately inflicted upon them before they were placed in the tomb. One of the most common features is for their ears to be broken off or seemingly chiseled away[6] At least one scholar disputes that the damage to the ears was deliberate, pointing out cases where detached ears have been found in perfect condition, and that the damage may be due more to rough handling by tomb robbers.[7] Of the many reserve heads only one has wholly intact ears; in others they have been scraped off close to the surface, whereas other or more crudely hacked or broken away.[8] One example contained dowel holes for the attachment of external ears which were not found with the head,[6] and another, smaller group of reserve heads were not made with any ears at all.[8]

Another common feature has been called the "cranial groove", a careful and deliberate cut that typically starts from the top of the cranium and extends to the back of the neck.[9]

 

Purposely omitting facts is just as dishonest as lying about them. 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Scott Creighton]

9 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

 

“I'm aware of your hypothesis about pyramids as "storage vaults", and cannot agree with it in any of its details. Therefore, the question I posed about the purpose of G2 if Khafre was not buried in it remains to be answered in a conventional manner.”

SC: The term I use is “Recovery Vaults” as they were built to bring about the recovery or revivification of the Kingdom after the anticipated deluge had laid it waste.  I have no reason to doubt that the box of earth and bull bones discovered in G2 by Belzoni was the original contents of that box (as part of a chthonic veneration and hoped for revivification of the earth) and there’s some good evidence to support that view. So yes, I agree - within the context of the conventional pyramid-as-tomb narrative the ‘box of earth’ burial does need a proper/better explanation and not just Lehner’s, “the priests found the king’s body had been stolen so went and filled the box with earth and bull bones instead” (as dumb an idea as I’ve ever heard).

“The reserve heads are not found in pyramids, only the mastabas at Giza.”

SC: Which does not exclude the possibility that they once were located in the Great Pyramid and subsequently removed. If mainstream believes that the king’s body and all his funerary equipment were plundered and removed from the pyramid, why not also the ka statues that were, imo, likely placed in the Grand Gallery as surrogates for the kings and queens’ bodies in the Big Void just above?  The evidence of the so-called ‘mutilation’ of the heads could very well have come about in the manner I have described in my last book (see my post above).

“The heads themselves though were not made to be part of a ka statue, the base of them is flush where a socket would be expected if they were for a statue.”

SC: Why would a “socket” “be expected” in the base of the neck if the statue had been carved from a single block of limestone?

“…what evidence is there for ka statues in G1…”

SC: I’ve just shown you. Are these ‘reserved heads’ the remains of ka statues from G1 (cut off and the base flattened and smoothed in order that they could stand on their own)? I can’t be certain but neither can I discount the possibility and more so given the curious ‘mutilation’ they exhibit which suggests they were forcefully prised away from a wall i.e. the Grand Gallery. Andre Pochan also tells us:

What else might suggest these statues were ka statues?  Well, we are told that Saurid (aka Suphis/Khufu) placed the bodies of his ancestors within the Great Pyramid.  We know the number of notches and inset holes in the pavements of the Grand Gallery – there are 27 on each pavement, alternating between larger and smaller (larger for the kings’ statues and the smaller notches for the queens’ statues – see image in post above).

Is it just coincidence then that this number matches the number of Khufu’s ancestor kings (and their queens)? Why would there be one statue for each king (and queen)? I suggest because their religious practice insisted upon it i.e. Ka (surrogate) statues set in place for each king (and queen) should the actual mummified body of the king/queen (up in the Big Void) decay beyond recognition for its ka. If there was no Ka statue for the body and the body decayed beyond recognition for its Ka, then the Ka would be 'lost' and die and the king would suffer and eternal death. This dad to be avoided at all costs as these ancestor kings were the ones that could intercede with the gods to bring about the rebirth of the kingdom. If they perished then there could be no rebirth. Hence why, imo, the AEs ensured they were placed somewhere that would protect them against the deluge and also against a permanent death (ka statue).

 

 “…and why would there be any when they would be at a place where offerings are made. . .”

SC: Perhaps practices were different then?

“Haswass in the Egytpian press has stated that Khufu is under this new void, but as all his pronouncements need to be carefully looked at, he may be refering to Khufu being somewhere that a potential filled in passage under the void leads to, and that could be under the Queens Chamber, or even in the big void.”

SC: Hawass, imo, needs to seriously wind his neck in. It wasn’t all that long ago that he was totally dismissing the ScanPyramid team’s findings, saying:

“This is not a discovery. The pyramid is full of voids and that does not mean there is a secret chamber or a new discovery.”

Now he’s all over it like a kid in a candy store. Khufu will not be found under this new void because that was not the purpose of it, imo.  To understand its function you have to think in terms of what the builders were actually doing – and by that I mean in terms of the Saurid ‘legend’ of building ‘recovery vaults’ for the kingdom to facilitate its rebirth after the devastating deluge.  That’s where the answer as to the purpose of this ‘Small Void’ is, imo, to be found. 

Think about it. Why have those massive weight-bearing gables to support hardly any weight at all at the edge of the pyramid? The answer to this enigma lies not in what is present and visible to us there today, but in what the AE builders believed would come to be bearing down upon that area – the deluge. There’s a greater volume of water bearing down at the lower edge of the pyramid than higher courses at the top/surface of the pyramid:

Of course, whether this deluge actually came to pass or not is largely irrelevant. It’s what the builders believed was coming their way (the deluge) that matters, and they prepared their kingdom for it as best they could.

If history has taught us anything it is that what we regard as mere legend often holds a fragment of truth. But neither do I doubt that there is much in the Saurid legend that has been embellished and exaggerated (almost always for their own political/religious agenda) by the Arab scholars as they wrote down the history of the Ancient Egyptians (as passed down to them by the descendants of the AEs, the Coptic-Egyptians). And just because these Egyptians some 2,000 years ago changed their religion to Christianity does not strip them of their ancient history and cultural heritage they held at that time, as some here seem to imagine. And just because some Arab scholars wrote down the AE history as told to them by Coptic Egyptians, does not make that history Arabic history or even an Arabic legend.  Translating Norse history and legends into Chinese does not make them Chinese history or legends.

SC

Edited March 8, 2023 by Scott Creighton

[Frank_Hoenedge]

Not to speak unnecessarily, which I often do, but wouldn’t the ingress toward the vault also involve the removal of casing stones?

 

Im not well versed as they’re long since moved to Cairo… The Chevrons above this entrance, behind which the new tunnel has been discovered, were previously behind both sandstone core blocks and limestone casing blocks? 
 

Just trying to picture the accurate removal of limestone and sandstone blocks to access this void and whether or not the Chevrons would come before or after such a process. 
 

[Wepwawet]

4 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

“The reserve heads are not found in pyramids, only the mastabas at Giza.”

SC: Which does not exclude the possibility that they once were located in the Great Pyramid and subsequently removed. If mainstream believes that the king’s body and all his funerary equipment were plundered and removed from the pyramid, why not also the ka statues that were, imo, likely placed in the Grand Gallery as surrogates for the kings and queens’ bodies in the Big Void just above?  The evidence of the so-called ‘mutilation’ of the heads could very well have come about in the manner I have described in my last book (see my post above).

“The heads themselves though were not made to be part of a ka statue, the base of them is flush where a socket would be expected if they were for a statue.”

SC: Why would a “socket” “be expected” in the base of the neck if the statue had been carved from a single block of limestone?

“…what evidence is there for ka statues in G1…”

SC: I’ve just shown you. Are these ‘reserved heads’ the remains of ka statues from G1 (cut off and the base flattened and smoothed in order that they could stand on their own)? I can’t be certain but neither can I discount the possibility and more so given the curious ‘mutilation’ they exhibit which suggests they were forcefully prised away from a wall i.e. the Grand Gallery.

 

Is it just coincidence then that this number matches the number of Khufu’s ancestor kings (and their queens)? Why would there be one statue for each king (and queen)? I suggest because their religious practice insisted upon it i.e. Ka (surrogate) statues set in place for each king (and queen) should the actual mummified body of the king/queen (up in the Big Void) decay beyond recognition for its ka. If there was no Ka statue for the body and the body decayed beyond recognition for its Ka, then the Ka would be 'lost' and die and the king would suffer and eternal death. This dad to be avoided at all costs as these ancestor kings were the ones that could intercede with the gods to bring about the rebirth of the kingdom. If they perished then there could be no rebirth. Hence why, imo, the AEs ensured they were placed somewhere that would protect them against the deluge and also against a permanent death (ka statue).

 

 “…and why would there be any when they would be at a place where offerings are made. . .”

SC: Perhaps practices were different then?

 

Not only are the reserve heads only found in mastabas, they are only found in either the burial chamber or at the bottom of the shaft. The ka statue on the other hand was initially in full view in the chapel, eventually the practice changing and the placing of the statue behind a wall with a slit for to it been seen. The important point is that the reserve head was always separate from the ka statue.

To cut the head off a ka statue and have it free standing is to render the statue useless, neither body nor head will have any function. As one of the purposes of the ka statue is to act as a reserve body for the deceased, what pressing reason could there be to carry out such a drastic act.

What  function will a ka statue have in the GG as it is inaccessible for offerings, it's other main purpose.

Any representation of the deceased can act to hold their ka. The small statue of Khufu found at Abydos will have, in the eyes of the AE, held a manifestation of his ka. They can, contrary to popular belief, survive the destruction of their body, this is of course not ideal, but they are never lost unless devoured by Ammit, though she is not attested in the OK.

These heads dissapear with the improvement in mummification and the practise of creating "masks" to go over the face, and then the entire head. We know what the ritual significance of the masks is, so if, as it seems, they have evolved from the reserve heads, these are the heads of the deceased as a god, as Osiris from his appearance in the PT of Unas, and perhaps as Khentamentiu before we have Osiris named as such. The liturgy refers to these mask like this :

He sees, the one who sees with the head of a god,

He sees: N, Osiris-Khentamentiu, with the head of a god

When we first encounter masks with texts on them, the text describes the function of each part of the mask, for instance, (Your right eye is the night barque, your left is the day barque, your eyebrows the Ennead) and it goes on further. While there is no textual evidence to say that the reserve heads are an early form of the mask, any other function needs some decent evidence to say this is not the case. Also the masks are not in place of a ka statue, they are something different in function. I know that it may seem a bit of a stretch comparing the mask of Tutankhamun to a 4th Dynasty reserve head, but all these things have a beginning, rather like comparing the some what confusing PT to the highly sophisticated visual Netherworld books that appeared many dynasties later.

Did they think there would be a flood, absolutely they did, a flood that would destroy the entire world. Problem is that this would happen at the end of time, a sort of AE Ragnorok, when Atum would be the last living being, until he too was consumed by the waters of chaos from which he created himself at the beginning of time.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Wepwawet

[Scott Creighton]

59 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Not only are the reserve heads only found in mastabas, they are only found in either the burial chamber or at the bottom of the shaft. The ka statue on the other hand was initially in full view in the chapel, eventually the practice changing and the placing of the statue behind a wall with a slit for to it been seen. The important point is that the reserve head was always separate from the ka statue.

To cut the head off a ka statue and have it free standing is to render the statue useless, neither body nor head will have any function. As one of the purposes of the ka statue is to act as a reserve body for the deceased, what pressing reason could there be to carry out such a drastic act.

What  function will a ka statue have in the GG as it is inaccessible for offerings, it's other main purpose.

Any representation of the deceased can act to hold their ka. The small statue of Khufu found at Abydos will have, in the eyes of the AE, held a manifestation of his ka. They can, contrary to popular belief, survive the destruction of their body, this is of course not ideal, but they are never lost unless devoured by Ammit, though she is not attested in the OK.

These heads dissapear with the improvement in mummification and the practise of creating "masks" to go over the face, and then the entire head. We know what the ritual significance of the masks is, so if, as it seems, they have evolved from the reserve heads, these are the heads of the deceased as a god, as Osiris from his appearance in the PT of Unas, and perhaps as Khentamentiu before we have Osiris named as such. The liturgy refers to these mask like this :

He sees, the one who sees with the head of a god,

He sees: N, Osiris-Khentamentiu, with the head of a god

When we first encounter masks with texts on them, the text describes the function of each part of the mask, for instance, (Your right eye is the night barque, your left is the day barque, your eyebrows the Ennead) and it goes on further. While there is no textual evidence to say that the reserve heads are an early form of the mask, any other function needs some decent evidence to say this is not the case. Also the masks are not in place of a ka statue, they are something different in function. I know that it may seem a bit of a stretch comparing the mask of Tutankhamun to a 4th Dynasty reserve head, but all these things have a beginning, rather like comparing the some what confusing PT to the highly sophisticated visual Netherworld books that appeared many dynasties later.

Did they think there would be a flood, absolutely they did, a flood that would destroy the entire world. Problem is that this would happen at the end of time, a sort of AE Ragnorok, when Atum would be the last living being, until he too was consumed by the waters of chaos from which he created himself at the beginning of time.

Look.  We can debate until eternity the root origins/inspiration behind the AEs ‘reserved heads’. But you simply cannot deny that it remains entirely possible that they were cut from Ka statues that once stood in the Grand Gallery.  The ‘mutilation marks’ on these heads may well bear witness to the fact that they had been prised away from a wall mounting.

But reserve heads or not – it seems almost certain, imo, that 27 kings' statues and 27 queens' statues were once located within the Grand Gallery. That they number the ancestors of Khufu must surely be a coincidence too far. That strongly suggests to me that they were indeed Ka statues.

At the end of the day – I am never going to convince you of my hypothesis. And that is perfectly fine by me. And I absolutely have no objection to you believing what you want to believe. The proof of my pudding will be when the Egyptian authorities finally get an endoscopic camera into the Big Void. I am reasonably confident they will find therein, Saurid/Suphis/Khufu’s ancestors – just as the Saurid legend tells us.

 So, we wait.

SC

Edited March 8, 2023 by Scott Creighton

[Wepwawet]

17 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Look.  We can debate until eternity the root origins/inspiration behind the AEs ‘reserved heads’. But you simply cannot deny that it remains entirely possible that they were cut from Ka statues that once stood in the Grand Gallery.  The ‘mutilation marks’ on these heads may well bear witness to the fact that they had been prised away from a wall mounting.

But reserve heads or not – it seems almost certain, imo, that 27 kings' statues and 27 queens' statues were once located within the Grand Gallery. That they number the ancestors of Khufu must surely be a coincidence too far. That strongly suggests to me that they were indeed Ka statues.

At the end of the day – I am never going to convince you of my hypothesis. And that is perfectly fine by me. And I absolutely have no objection to you believing what you want to believe. The proof of my pudding will be when the Egyptian authorities finally get an endoscopic camera into the Big Void. I am reasonably confident they will find therein, Saurid/Suphis/Khufu’s ancestors – just as the Saurid legend tells us.

 So, we wait.

SC

Assuming that these heads are from decapitated ka statues placed in the GG, apart from why this was done, why were the heads placed in the burial chambers of seperate mastabas, not all at Giza, and where are the headless ka statues.

The origin of the later "masks" is not unimportant, the reserve heads cannot just be dissmissed as decapitated ka statue heads when there is no evidence to show this. No matter what damage they have, none of it can really be attritbuted to them being cut off a statue, not least because it seems odd that they took care to give the base a decent finish, but were so clumsy as to knock ears off and damage the back of the heads.

I think that when some form of access to the big void is made, it will either contain Khufu's burial goods, the best reasonable outcome, or be empty.

[Wistman]

Here's Keith Hamilton's new paper (3/6/23) on the void/hidden corridor:

https://www.academia.edu/98053499/The_Great_Pyramid_Void_A_laymans_guide

17 pages

[Wistman]

14 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

I'm aware of your hypothesis about pyramids as "storage vaults", and cannot agree with it in any of it's details. Therefore, the question I posed about the purpose of G2 if Khafre was not buried in it remains to be answered in a conventional manner. That's not to be disparaging, it's just that there can be no middle ground here as pyramids are either what the majority belive them to be, tombs, or something very different, and that is an argument I have no intention of engaging in as it would be fruitless.

The reserve heads are not found in pyramids, only the mastabas at Giza. However, maybe the kings had reserve heads in their mortuary chapels, and long gone. The heads themselves though were not made to be part of a ka statue, the base of them is flush where a socket would be expected if they were for a statue. So if not part of a ka statue, what evidence is there for ka statues in G1, and why would there be any when they would be at a place where offerings are made. This is why ka statues are found in the chapels of mastabas, and those for kings I am sure would have been in their mortuary chapel. The serdab in the Queen's Chamber, which looks like it may have held a ka statue being, like so much else of G1, an enigma. Maybe it did have a statue and that part of the pyramid was left open for ritual purposes, and maybe Khufu is under the Queen's Chamber, or some one or something else as increasingly seems possible. Haswass in the Egytpian press has stated that Khufu is under this new void, but as all his pronouncements need to be carefully looked at, he may be refering to Khufu being somewhere that a potential filled in passage under the void leads to, and that could be under the Queens Chamber, or even in the big void.

Ancient Architects addresses Hawass's speculation about the Khufu's burial chamber being under the corridor, and thinks it unsound, in his newly released video about the corridor, a follow-up on his coverage from last week:

published today, 3/8/23                  12:31

[Wepwawet]

8 hours ago, Wistman said:

Here's Keith Hamilton's new paper (3/6/23) on the void/hidden corridor:

https://www.academia.edu/98053499/The_Great_Pyramid_Void_A_laymans_guide

17 pages

That is a very handy reference to illustrations of most of the various theories out there, saves having to have multiple books and tabs open. I'll agree with Sibson, and I think it more possible that Houdin is the closest to what the reality might be. With Hawass it's the usual problem of his use of language.

[Frank_Hoenedge]

 

[docyabut2]

 A other  door where  Khafre `s mummy  could be found 

[WVK]

13 hours ago, Wistman said:

Ancient Architects addresses Hawass's speculation about the Khufu's burial chamber being under the corridor, and thinks it unsound, in his newly released video about the corridor, a follow-up on his coverage from last week:

published today, 3/8/23                  12:31

This seems to compliment this:

Proposed Pyramid Construction Techniques

 

[Frank_Hoenedge]

Going this way the unfinished chamber would be the water well with less pollutants compared with the Nile.

 

Once the grand gallery is sealed at the culmination of the King’s chamber how would the water well remain in use?

 

Presumably a trough with similar dimensions to a core structure block would be elevated to each course.

[Scott Creighton]

17 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

 

“Assuming that these heads are from decapitated ka statues placed in the GG, apart from why this was done, why were the heads placed in the burial chambers of seperate mastabas, not all at Giza, and where are the headless ka statues.”

SC: Perhaps the mastaba owner wanted a god-king with them who had the power to bring about rebirth? Is it so different to what many people do today by having figurines of Christ (the saviour/redeemer) or a crucifix in their coffin or mausoleum?

“… No matter what damage they have, none of it can really be attritbuted to them being cut off a statue, not least because it seems odd that they took care to give the base a decent finish, but were so clumsy as to knock ears off and damage the back of the heads.”

SC: I guess the most important thing to ensure was that the face was not damaged as it is the face that the ka would recognise – the base, the ears, the back of the head, not so much.  The base required a “decent finish” in order to stand on its own.  In fact, with a good, straight saw-cut it may not even have required too much of a finish.

But look – you are putting way too much emphasis here on the reserve heads that have been found. My opinion on them is simply that they may have once been attached to a full-bodied statue – the shearing of the ears and the gouges in the back of the head of some of them suggest force was used to break them free from whatever mounting there was, which itself suggests a full-bodied statue.

My hypothesis does not stand or fall on whether or not the reserve heads were once attached to full statues. We are told that statues did once exist in the GG. The 27 (x2) pavement notches and wall inset holes are, imo, suggestive of statues having once been mounted in these positions. It’s also, imo, just too much of a coincidence that Khufu had 27 ancestor kings and queens.  So it remains my opinion that these statues in the GG were likely ka statues for each of Khufu’s deceased ancestors up there in the Big Void. And, as explained in my earlier posts, this hypothesis also rather neatly explains the ‘empty sarcophagi’ phenomenon of 3^rd and 4^th dynasty kings/queens.

Where are the remains of these decapitated statues now?

SC: Well that’s anyone’s guess, isn’t it? I could equally ask the same for the lid of the G1 ‘sarcophagus’ or any amount of stuff that Egyptology insists was robbed from the pyramids in antiquity.

“I think that when some form of access to the big void is made, it will either contain Khufu's burial goods, the best reasonable outcome, or be empty.”

SC: I certainly don’t discount that as a possibility. Hopefully we will have the answer in our lifetime.

SC