What were Neanderthals really like—and why did they go extinct?

[Ell]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Not all Neanderthals lived on mountains

That is true, but they usually lived in the colder biotopes and the Homo sapiens sapiens usually lived in the warmer biotopes.

[Grim Reaper 6]

12 minutes ago, Ell said:

Intriguing.

Skull modification?

It wasn’t skull modification, it was a genetic trait some Neanderthals had the actual reason for it has never been fully explained. However, I hypothesize that is was an evolutionary trait designed to give additional protection to the back of the upper neck and the brain stem. To date there has only been a single population of Neanderthals discovered with this genetic trait, and their remains were discovered in Europe in a cave system known as Spy Cave. Then since the Spy cave system was only known where this genetic anomaly has occurred they call the skulls discovered there Neanderthal Spy Skull type. If you would like more information on the subject, type Neanderthal Spy Skull in yuor Search engine.

Hope this helps. 

[Ell]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spy_Cave

[Ell]

6 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Notice the boney circular ridge at the bottom of the Skull this was found on some Neanderthal skulls, why this developed I can’t say, but this was not common even for Neanderthals.

You mean the elevated skull plate at the back of the skull, in the picture at the top?

According to the legends the skull had been impacted several times and is deformed.

 

I speculate that any unusual features may have been caused by intracranial pressure.

[jmccr8]

6 hours ago, Ell said:

That is true, but they usually lived in the colder biotopes and the Homo sapiens sapiens usually lived in the warmer biotopes.

Hi Ell

They lived all over Europe as well as have been in the Middle East, there are locations in Spain, France and Germany and likely moved south during the ice age although that would still be cooler temperatures.

 

[Tatetopa]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2302065-neanderthals-may-have-cleared-a-european-forest-with-fire-or-tools/

Neanderthals may have cleared a European forest with fire or tools

When Neanderthals lived at a site called Neumark-Nord in Germany, the region had far fewer trees than surrounding areas, suggesting they may have cleared the forest on purpose

Ring any bells? @Piney

How Neanderthals made the very first glue

31 August 2017

The world’s oldest known glue was made by Neanderthals. But how did they make it 200,000 years ago? Leiden archaeologists have discovered three possible ways. Publication in Scientific Reports, 31 August.

 

[Piney]

46 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2302065-neanderthals-may-have-cleared-a-european-forest-with-fire-or-tools/

Neanderthals may have cleared a European forest with fire or tools

When Neanderthals lived at a site called Neumark-Nord in Germany, the region had far fewer trees than surrounding areas, suggesting they may have cleared the forest on purpose

Ring any bells? @Piney

How Neanderthals made the very first glue

31 August 2017

The world’s oldest known glue was made by Neanderthals. But how did they make it 200,000 years ago? Leiden archaeologists have discovered three possible ways. Publication in Scientific Reports, 31 August.

 

The first forestry management practices. 

[Abramelin]

On 3/12/2023 at 11:28 PM, Ell said:

It does not.

 

When wearing clothing the problem is in their physiology. It is like transferring a polar bear to the Sahara. The polar bear has all these characteristics that evolved so the species can live in the arctic. Those characteristics would be useless in the Sahara. An organism has but so much developmental energy credit, which is used for necessary functionality. When transferred to the Sahara all that polar bear's invested developmental energy goes to waste. That loss constitutes its reproductive disadvantage.

 

So - usually (not always) - a biotope change (in this case the addition of clothing) - will result in a reproductive disadvantage. (All organisms have evolved to perfectly fit the niche they occupy. When the conditions of the niche change, the organism will have to evolve to fit the changed niche - or go extinct.)

 

Of course if the Neanderthalers did not wear clothing and Homo sapiens sapiens did, the reproductive disadvantage of the Neanderthalers would be even greater.

The Neanderthals could have adapted to the cold by wearing clothing. Then what?

It is said they had big noses as an adaptation to the cold. Maybe. But Inuit and Tibetans don't have particularly big noses, and still live in cold surroundings for millennia.

Others say their big noses were an adaptation for larger intakes of air during their hunts on very big game (woolly rhinos, mastodonts).

Every year there is a new explanation.

[Piney]

19 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The Neanderthals could have adapted to the cold by wearing clothing. Then what?

It is said they had big noses as an adaptation to the cold. Maybe. But Inuit and Tibetans don't have particularly big noses, and still live in cold surroundings for millennia.

Others say their big noses were an adaptation for larger intakes of air during their hunts on very big game (woolly rhinos, mastodonts).

Every year there is a new explanation.

The Inuit and Tibetans have the Denisovan "high altitude" gene. They need less O2 so bigger sinus passages are moot. 

[Ell]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The Neanderthals could have adapted to the cold by wearing clothing. Then what?

 

Why wear clothing if the subspecies is already adapted to the cold?

 

Quote

It is said they had big noses as an adaptation to the cold. Maybe. But Inuit and Tibetans don't have particularly big noses, and still live in cold surroundings for millennia.

That is a good argument. 

In fact we see that people living in extremely cold conditions have few protuberances: small noses, small breasts (?), small penises, small legs, small digits. (True?)

 

Quote

Others say their big noses were an adaptation for larger intakes of air during their hunts on very big game (woolly rhinos, mastodonts).

Not credible in my opinion.

In fact an argument can be made that the big noses indicate a desert existence.

 

So I do wonder about Neanderthal noses and the evolution of their noses.

 

You have given me someting to think about. Thank you.

[Portre]

On 3/12/2023 at 8:53 PM, Ell said:

That is true, but they usually lived in the colder biotopes and the Homo sapiens sapiens usually lived in the warmer biotopes.

New fossils reveal a strange-looking Neanderthal in Israel

 Both fossils and ancient DNA have suggested Neanderthals arose more than 400,000 years ago in Europe and spread later into the Middle East, where they likely met and mated with modern humans who had migrated out of Africa.

[Abramelin]

11 minutes ago, Ell said:

Why wear clothing if the subspecies is already adapted to the cold?

And how were they adapted to the cold?

[Myles]

1 hour ago, Ell said:

 

Why wear clothing if the subspecies is already adapted to the cold?

 

 

I would say for comfort.   

[jmccr8]

5 hours ago, Ell said:

Why wear clothing if the subspecies is already adapted to the cold?

Hi Ell

Being adapted to cold does not mean running around butt naked but were able to live in colder regions because they were intelligent enough to make proper clothing to aid in living in those climes. Your posts give the impression that you have not read enough about how they lived or that they were socially and intellectually equal to Hss.

[Ell]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And how were they adapted to the cold?

Their whole physiology. It is why their skeletons are easily recognizable to experts.

[Ell]

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Ell

Being adapted to cold does not mean running around butt naked but were able to live in colder regions because they were intelligent enough to make proper clothing to aid in living in those climes. Your posts give the impression that you have not read enough about how they lived or that they were socially and intellectually equal to Hss.

The idea that the Neanderthalers wore clothes is mere speculation. Can you show us a cave painting of a Neanderthaler in a tuxedo?

Your impressions are false.

[Abramelin]

11 hours ago, Ell said:

Their whole physiology. It is why their skeletons are easily recognizable to experts.

I found some interesting webpages about how Neanderthals had adapted to a cold climate:

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2021/04/19/neanderthals_were_the_human_species_best_adapted_to_cold_heres_why_772814.html

https://www.sapiens.org/biology/humans-cold-environment-adaptations/

[Abramelin]

11 hours ago, Ell said:

The idea that the Neanderthalers wore clothes is mere speculation.

That they didn't is also speculation. They appear more than intelligent enough to be able to make clothing.

I don't believe they walked around naked during the ice ages. As far as DNA can tell us, they didn't have fur.

[Ell]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

As far as DNA can tell us, they didn't have fur.

That is a good argument.

[+Desertrat56]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:35 AM, Piney said:

The Inuit and Tibetans have the Denisovan "high altitude" gene. They need less O2 so bigger sinus passages are moot. 

Besides, I saw something a long time ago about the africans needing larger noses and sinus cavities because of the heat.

[jmccr8]

34 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Besides, I saw something a long time ago about the africans needing larger noses and sinus cavities because of the heat.

Hi Desertrat

That is also why they don’t have a cartilage in their noses as that was an adaptation to colder climates 

[jmccr8]

19 hours ago, Ell said:

The idea that the Neanderthalers wore clothes is mere speculation. Can you show us a cave painting of a Neanderthaler in a tuxedo?

Your impressions are false.

Hi Ell

Don’t have time right now but when I am on a computer will look through folders for links that I have. They wouldn’t have worn a tuxedo but did wear furs and there is evidence that they made fibers to twist into string. Their clothing would be relatively simple like cutting a hole in a hyde  to wear it like a poncho by pulling it over their heads.

They we’re not dumb beasts and very much like us at that time. They did make shelters out of mammoth tusks and hydes as well as made lithic tool kits with scrapers to remove hydes.

I am going with what I have read over the years so it is not my impression 

[Ell]

10 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I am going with what I have read over the years so it is not my impression 

I meant that your impression of my posts is false.

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, Ell said:

I meant that your impression of my posts is false.

Hi Ell

My apologies if you were offended, I have no idea what research you have done on archaic humans. I did read a lot in past on the subject and still get updates on papers about Neanderthals although I tend not to read papers on my phone as much as I don’t like the small screen.

I grew up with long cold winters where temps drop to -50 and stay there for 5-6 weeks straight then add wind chill. Our species does have a small percentage of Neanderthal dna that did give us some advantages and disadvantages but would think that if there was some magic cold gene that we would have inherited it from them as adaptations are linked to environment.

There was a site in Germany where Neanderthals and Hss lived across a river from each other and we know there was several instances of interbreeding. In exchanges like this genetics is not all that is exchanged. Neanderthals had speech as well and were able to communicate so it is not like they were so different from us.

[Ell]

11 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I have no idea what research you have done on archaic humans.

I have not read anything about them in recent years. Except for the links provided by other people in this thread.

 

Quote

I grew up with long cold winters where temps drop to -50 and stay there for 5-6 weeks straight then add wind chill.

In degrees centigrade or degrees fahrenheit?

 

Quote

Our species does have a small percentage of Neanderthal dna that did give us some advantages and disadvantages but would think that if there was some magic cold gene that we would have inherited it from them as adaptations are linked to environment.

We know such alleles did exist because we can infer them from their skeletons.

After clothing was invented those alleles became useless and were bred out of the gene pool.

 

Quote

There was a site in Germany where Neanderthals and Hss lived across a river from each other and we know there was several instances of interbreeding. In exchanges like this genetics is not all that is exchanged. Neanderthals had speech as well and were able to communicate so it is not like they were so different from us.

I am aware of such. I do not know where you got the impression that I am not aware of such things.

 

In any case the article linked to by Abramelin implicates that tools necessary to make clothing were not found in the archaeological record earlier than fifty thousand years ago. So a mere ten thousand years before the Neanderthalers became extinct (in Europe).